Marmion, McGrath or Cooney?

irishfan9 · 17-10-2017 9:21am #1

Who would be your choice to be the primary backup for Murray for the November internationals?

Burkie1203 · 17-10-2017 9:26am

Marmion is still ahead of McGrath IMO. Cooney isnt in the conversation at the moment barring injuries.

Wegians89 · 17-10-2017 9:38am

Marmion still got it. Although McGrath is constantly closing the gap, cooney really pushing on too

17-10-2017 9:41am

Probably stick with Marmion for now. Great to have four guys who could potentially do a job though. The England game proved the sky doesn't fall in if Murray isn't there.

MarinersBlues · 17-10-2017 9:50am

I haven't seen much of McGrath this year.
Marmion and Cooney are both solid options who offer different attacking threats and are both excellent defensively.

Marmion has the snipe attack, Cooney has his boot, Marmion probably a bit faster with the passing.

For me Marmion would be slightly ahead but Cooney could be the selection depending on the game plan.

errlloyd · 17-10-2017 9:55am

Cooney probably has more experience sitting on the bench at club level than either of the other two. Marmion has been sitting on the bench to international standard now for a while. McGrath doesn't have much sitting on the bench experience. I think he has great leadership pedigree and could lift the bench game of those around him so they can make more an impact when they go on and he doesn't.

accensi0n · 17-10-2017 10:32am

Definitely have to go with the best defensive winger in Ireland.

durthacht · 17-10-2017 11:24am

McGrath for me.

CatFromHue · 17-10-2017 2:40pm

I'd go with Marmion too, he can also be the sub winger too :pac:

typhoony · 17-10-2017 9:13pm

my take on this going to mark them 1 or 0 or draw on each facet of the game

McGrath v Marmion
Tackling: Draw
Sniping: Draw
Passing: 0-1
Box Kicking: Draw
Versatility: 0-1

so Marmion maginally ahead if my flawed scoring is correct

gally74 · 17-10-2017 9:38pm

typhoony wrote: »

my take on this going to mark them 1 or 0 or draw on each facet of the game

McGrath v Marmion
Tackling: Draw
Sniping: Draw
Passing: 0-1
Box Kicking: Draw
Versatility: 0-1

so Marmion maginally ahead if my flawed scoring is correct

Body on the line,,,, Marion

stephen_n · 17-10-2017 9:56pm

typhoony wrote: »

my take on this going to mark them 1 or 0 or draw on each facet of the game

McGrath v Marmion
Tackling: Draw
Sniping: Draw
Passing: 0-1
Box Kicking: Draw
Versatility: 0-1

so Marmion maginally ahead if my flawed scoring is correct

I would have Marmion ahead myself, but the box kicking part I would have McGrath way ahead.

errlloyd · 17-10-2017 10:02pm

Somebody get the Luke McGrath triple tackle v Cardiff

Zzippy · 17-10-2017 10:02pm

stephen_n wrote: »

I would have Marmion ahead myself, but the box kicking part I would have McGrath way ahead.

Some of his box kicks lately have been awful. Marmion still well ahead for me. I expect Cooney to catch up and overtake McGrath with regular gametime this year. Great to have a bit of competition in the position finally.

MarinersBlues · 17-10-2017 10:03pm

gally74 wrote: »

Body on the line,,,, Marion

In my head Marion is your wife's name.
You have left ok google on.
You are playing "tender tackle tuesday"

pickarooney · 17-10-2017 10:12pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'd go with Marmion too, he can also be the sub winger too :pac:

Our Francois Hougaard

damianmcr · 17-10-2017 10:40pm

Has no one watched Cooney much this season? I admit I haven't watched the other two either but Cooney has been seriously impressive.

Former Former · 17-10-2017 10:54pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'd go with Marmion too, he can also be the sub winger too :pac:

If that's the criteria, then Paul Marshall comes roaring back into the equation.

jacothelad · 17-10-2017 11:20pm

gally74 wrote: »

Body on the line,,,, Marion

Maid........

arsebiscuits1 · 18-10-2017 11:31am

Basing Marmions tackling ability on 2 massive hits on the wing against Australia is a flawed argument.

Luke McGrath on countless occasions has prevented certain tries with a textbook tackling technique in his sweeping role. Probably the best pound for pound tackler in the Leinster squad.

Marmions running and sniping game are very superior to Lukes and he probably has a much better, snappier pass.

While Luke tends to have some complete mares with his box kicking, it has improved and it is not something that Marmion has in his locker.

All in all, Marmions style probably suits him to a "finishing" role, especially in a Joe Schmidt game plan. But I suspect in the not to distant future, McGrath will overtake him as the undisputed number 2 in Ireland.

Mention for Cooney who in the last 5 years has had no consistent run of games with injury problems. Very solid option with a very good kicking game. When he left for Connacht, him and Luke were neck and neck and I reckon it was a coin toss who would leave. If he finishes this season on the upward trend he has started, he could well put himself in the mix.

molloyjh · 18-10-2017 12:48pm

Zzippy wrote: »

Some of his box kicks lately have been awful. Marmion still well ahead for me. I expect Cooney to catch up and overtake McGrath with regular gametime this year. Great to have a bit of competition in the position finally.

His box kicking lately has actually been pretty good. Up until the Monty game anyway, but the wind for that game wouldn't have helped. He's also the best defender at 9 in the country for me. His defensive reads while sweeping and his ability to complete tackles he has no right to (plus his appetite for that stuff) regularly impress.

Marmion is a better (and a snappier) passer and has a better break (although Luke is decent there too). He's a proper impact sub. Can up the pace and really turn the screw on opposition sides in the final quarter. I really like how we went with him starting against England too. The pace we played at was enjoyable.

And Cooney then has probably the most rounded skill set of the three of them. Maybe doesn't have the out and out strengths but then doesn't have any real glaring weaknesses that I've seen. Plus he can take shots at goal if need be.

I don't think any of them are world class, but as back ups go it's great to see 3 guys all playing well and having something different to offer. Right now Marmion is the man in possession and I haven't seen anything to convince me we need to change. But the margins have certainly gotten a lot finer. And that's a good thing.

Bridge93 · 18-10-2017 1:22pm

Largely indifferent to who the backup is. They all bring certain strengths and weaknesses but are all able backup options with very little between them. Marmion should be the one for the time being as he’s done nothing to lose that role. Positive times after the years of relying on one man be it stringer or Murray

aloooof · 18-10-2017 1:55pm

Bridge93 wrote: »

Largely indifferent to who the backup is. They all bring certain strengths and weaknesses but are all able backup options with very little between them. Marmion should be the one for the time being as he’s done nothing to lose that role. Positive times after the years of relying on one man be it stringer or Murray

To my mind, it's the largest strength in depth we've ever had in all positions really.

wp_rathead · 18-10-2017 2:03pm

aloooof wrote: »

To my mind, it's the largest strength in depth we've ever had in all positions really.

The best thing about SH debate is each are first choice for a province- no backlog of talent at one team

ClanofLams · 18-10-2017 2:12pm

Marmion has delivered at a higher level than either McGrath or Cooney, albeit they haven't had the opportunity to the same extent naturally.

He had a brilliant game against England topped by a try saving cover tackle and was likely in line for the MotM only for O'Mahonys tour de force.

With the exception of box kicking (which is improving and is probably the area where improvements are most possible) he does everything as well or better than McGrath or Cooney.

I don't see Marmion losing the no.2 spot anytime soon.

awec · 18-10-2017 2:18pm

damianmcr wrote: »

Has no one watched Cooney much this season? I admit I haven't watched the other two either but Cooney has been seriously impressive.

Ulster need him so Ireland should pick Marmion or McGrath. Would rather Cooney rested the weeks there is a break.

irishfan9 · 18-10-2017 2:19pm

wp_rathead wrote: »

The best thing about SH debate is each are first choice for a province- no backlog of talent at one team

it was nice of Leinster to produce two quality scrumhalves.

more to come.

aloooof · 18-10-2017 2:53pm

wp_rathead wrote: »

The best thing about SH debate is each are first choice for a province- no backlog of talent at one team

Not dissimilar to the lock situation last year, with Henderson, Dillane, Ryan and Toner vying for the 2 positions. That's obviously changed now with Ryan's departure, and Treadwell and Ryan-eile coming into the mix.

If Billy Holland isn't in the extended squad, I wonder how many years it is since we had a squad without a Munster lock?

irishbucsfan · 18-10-2017 2:56pm

wp_rathead wrote: »

The best thing about SH debate is each are first choice for a province- no backlog of talent at one team

Thanks Nucifer!

irishfan9 · 18-10-2017 2:57pm

aloooof wrote: »

Not dissimilar to the lock situation last year, with Henderson, Dillane, Ryan and Toner vying for the 2 positions. That's obviously changed now with Ryan's departure, and Treadwell and Ryan-eile coming into the mix.

If Billy Holland isn't in the extended squad, I wonder how many years it is since we had a squad without a Munster lock?

a long time, luckily for Munster they have been bailed out by the Leinster system.

aloooof · 18-10-2017 3:06pm

irishfan9 wrote: »

a long time, luckily for Munster they have been bailed out by the Leinster system.

How, exactly?

irishfan9 · 18-10-2017 3:11pm

aloooof wrote: »

How, exactly?

aloooof · 18-10-2017 3:30pm

irishfan9 wrote: »

Does signing one player (From Scarlets) constitute a bailout?

irishfan9 · 18-10-2017 3:44pm

aloooof wrote: »

Does signing one player (From Scarlets) constitute a bailout?

without signing kildare and leinster native tadhg beirne munster would not have an active international 2nd row next season.

in fact munster may have two leinster men playing second row for them next season, if Mark Flanagan sticks around.

Long gone are the days of POC, DOC and MOD.

aloooof · 18-10-2017 3:57pm

irishfan9 wrote: »

without signing kildare and leinster native tadhg beirne munster would not have an active international 2nd row next season.

in fact munster may have two leinster men playing second row for them next season, if Mark Flanagan sticks around.

Long gone are the days of POC, DOC and MOD.

It's a numbers game. Leinster produces more players. Ideally, we want as many Irish players starting for Irish provinces as possible. Fail to see why one former-Leinster player signing for Munster is a "bailout". Or even why it should be framed as a negative.

Anyways, this is wildly off topic, and I only mentioned this...

aloooof wrote: »

If Billy Holland isn't in the extended squad, I wonder how many years it is since we had a squad without a Munster lock?

...as a potentially interesting stat.

irishfan9 · 18-10-2017 4:00pm

aloooof wrote: »

It's a numbers game. Leinster produces more players. Ideally, we want as many Irish players starting for Irish provinces as possible. Fail to see why one former-Leinster player signing for Munster is a "bailout". Or even why it should be framed as a negative.

It's a bailout as Munster need him to cover up their inability to produce quality second rows from their own academy in recent years.

molloyjh · 18-10-2017 4:01pm

Soooooooo.....scrum halves anyone?

aloooof · 18-10-2017 4:04pm

irishfan9 wrote: »

It's a bailout as Munster need him to cover up their inability to produce quality second rows from their own academy in recent years.

"It's an ARU bailout as Leinster need Fardy to cover up their inability to produce quality second rows from their own academy in recent years."

Anyways.... Marmion for the number 2 spot for me.

irishfan9 · 18-10-2017 4:20pm

aloooof wrote: »

"It's an ARU bailout as Leinster need Fardy to cover up their inability to produce quality second rows from their own academy in recent years."

Anyways.... Marmion for the number 2 spot for me.

Leinster don't need Fardy, as proven at the weekend.

b.gud · 18-10-2017 5:06pm

irishfan9 wrote: »

Leinster don't need Fardy, as proven at the weekend.

stephen_n · 18-10-2017 6:09pm

aloooof wrote: »

"It's an ARU bailout as Leinster need Fardy to cover up their inability to produce quality second rows from their own academy in recent years."

Anyways.... Marmion for the number 2 spot for me.

Not that I'm agreeing in any way with the post but wouldn't that also mean SARU are bailing out Munster too... oh my god this is so nonsensical

aloooof · 18-10-2017 6:18pm

irishfan9 wrote: »

Leinster don't need Fardy, as proven at the weekend.

Presumably they didn't need Beirne either, so where's the problem?

stephen_n wrote: »

Not that I'm agreeing in any way with the post but wouldn't that also mean SARU are bailing out Munster too... oh my god this is so nonsensical

Bailouts for everyone!! But ya, I don't agree with it either, just demonstrating the flaw in the logic.

I was about the apologise to the OP for the derailment but then checked who it was...

irishfan9 · 18-10-2017 6:48pm

aloooof wrote: »

Presumably they didn't need Beirne either, so where's the problem?

Bailouts for everyone!! But ya, I don't agree with it , just demonstrating the flaw in the logic.

I was about the apologise to the OP for the derailment but then checked who it was...

They dont as they have developed have two homegrown regular irish internationals.. Munster need Beirne as they have failed to do similar.

clsmooth · 18-10-2017 7:15pm

I'd have Marmion as number two. Has been around the camp for a long time, now has international experience and most importantly is a very good player and offers a notable change of tempo off the bench. McGrath is developing nicely but is still a little bit raw for me. Still think he has a few mistakes in him every game. I think he needs to work on his consistency. Haven't seen enough of Cooney this year to comment. Great that he's finally getting some time. Would be nice if a few more lads made the move up to Ulster. The more options the better.

irishfan9 · 18-10-2017 7:27pm

Even nicer if ulster developed their own players.

clsmooth · 18-10-2017 7:41pm

irishfan9 wrote: »

Even nicer if ulster developed their own players.

Great contribution :rolleyes:

Henderson, Stockdale, Olding, Jackson, McCloskey.. all 25 or younger. They’re doing alright buddy.

aloooof · 18-10-2017 7:44pm

irishfan9 wrote: »

They dont as they have developed have two homegrown regular irish internationals.. Munster need Beirne as they have failed to do similar.

Ryan has 2 caps against Tier 2 opposition, one coming from the bench, if I recall correctly? If this is "regular", then I can claim to regularly go to the gym...

irishfan9 · 18-10-2017 8:03pm

clsmooth wrote: »

Great contribution :rolleyes:

Henderson, Stockdale, Olding, Jackson, McCloskey.. all 25 or younger. They’re doing alright buddy.

Two of whom may never play again.

1 of whom is a forward.

I havent said they didnt develop any, just need to develop more..

If you think ulster have done a good enough at talent development... well nothing more really needs to be said

irishfan9 · 18-10-2017 8:05pm

aloooof wrote: »

Ryan has 2 caps against Tier 2 opposition, one coming from the bench, if I recall correctly? If this is "regular", then I can claim to regularly go to the gym...

Yeah Ryan isnt going to add to his caps this upcoming season at all.. was fast tracked into ireland for absolutely no reason at all.. HA

aloooof · 18-10-2017 8:12pm

irishfan9 wrote: »

They dont as they have developed have two homegrown regular irish internationals.. Munster need Beirne as they have failed to do similar.

irishfan9 wrote: »

Yeah Ryan isnt going to add to his caps this upcoming season at all.. was fast tracked into ireland for absolutely no reason at all.. HA

Where did I say any of the latter post?? You've completely moved the goalposts again.

Read the bold. There's a massive difference between being a regular (as you initially claimed) versus having the potential to be a regular in the future (which you are now claiming). Currently Ryan is firmly in the latter category.

irishfan9 · 18-10-2017 8:19pm

aloooof wrote: »

Where did I say any of the latter post?? You've completely moved the goalposts again.

Read the bold. There's a massive difference between being a regular (as you initially claimed) versus having the potential to be a regular in the future (which you are now claiming). Currently Ryan is firmly in the latter category.

Ryan is better already than any irish 2nd row at Munster.

Marmion, McGrath or Cooney?

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