Opinions on Irish identity

Ulsterman96 · 15-10-2017 11:41am #1

My question is, I am a 19 year old from the north and come from a very mixed religious background family, and growing up I was raised not to judge people on where they're from or what religion, political stance they belong to and I am thankful for this. I am aware of both my linage of having both grandparents from the south and grandparents of Scottish decent, and recently have become very compelled to embrace both cultures, but whilst doing so, especially in the north it feels like its either, you're British or you're Irish, and I honestly feel I do not belong to any of these and struggle with my identity because of the divide of the island and so I feel Northern Irish is the only identity I feel comfortable expressing and so I just wanted to get other peoples opinions of this identity from across Ireland.

murphaph · 15-10-2017 12:40pm

Hi with whatever you feel comfortable with. For what it's worth IMO until an overwhelming majority of people can feel happy in a NI skin, things cannot move on in a meaningful way.

Anita Blow · 15-10-2017 1:01pm

Ulsterman96 wrote: »

My question is, I am a 19 year old from the north and come from a very mixed religious background family, and growing up I was raised not to judge people on where they're from or what religion, political stance they belong to and I am thankful for this. I am aware of both my linage of having both grandparents from the south and grandparents of Scottish decent, and recently have become very compelled to embrace both cultures, but whilst doing so, especially in the north it feels like its either, you're British or you're Irish, and I honestly feel I do not belong to any of these and struggle with my identity because of the divide of the island and so I feel Northern Irish is the only identity I feel comfortable expressing and so I just wanted to get other peoples opinions of this identity from across Ireland.

Don't feel pressure to identify with either. I suspect you're the first real generation of people growing up in Northern Ireland with a predominantly Northern Irish identity, as opposed to Irish or British. Sure some of the older people might give you grief for it, but that attitude is dying out. So embrace your identity and absolutely take part in both traditions. It'll make you a much more open, tolerant person.

riffmongous · 15-10-2017 4:59pm

Who would you vote for? There doesn't really seem to be a northern irish political party

Junkyard Tom · 15-10-2017 11:20pm

Ulsterman96 wrote: »

I feel Northern Irish is the only identity I feel comfortable expressing

Yet you picked Ulsterman96 as your moniker? Could you explain what the 'Northern' Irish identity is?

Red_Wake · 16-10-2017 6:18am

Good on you, sounds like you're leaving all that sectarian muck behind you.

Prepare for abuse from both sides of the sectarian divide though. If you're not with them, you're against them!

murphaph · 16-10-2017 6:38am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Yet you picked Ulsterman96 as your moniker? Could you explain what the 'Northern' Irish identity is?

To me as a southerner a northern nationalist or unionist have a lot more in common with each other than a typical northern nationalist has with a typical southerner or a typical unionist has with a typical Brit. There's definitely a distinct NI identity. How could there not be after all NI has been through? Nationalists and unionists experienced all that together. Southerners and those from GB don't have that collective experience.

blackwhite · 16-10-2017 6:39am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Yet you picked Ulsterman96 as your moniker? Could you explain what the 'Northern' Irish identity is?

I think attitudes like this sum up exactly what the problem is.

Attack the OP and take a “if you’re not one of us, you must be one of them” attitude.

It’s a sad reflection of many in NÍ (and in the Republic) that a rejection of sectarianism is seen as a reason to be attacked by the hardcore from both sides.

murphaph · 16-10-2017 6:41am

blackwhite wrote: »

I think attitudes like this sum up exactly what the problem is.

Attack the OP and take a “if you’re not one of us, you must be one of them” attitude.

It’s a sad reflection of many in NÍ (and in the Republic) that a rejection of sectarianism is seen as a reason to be attacked by the hardcore from both sides.

And the truth is a rejection of sectarianism is the only way to long term stability and peace, be that in the UK, a UI or even as an independent country. Northerners first need to get along with each other.

Junkyard Tom · 16-10-2017 7:19pm

blackwhite wrote: »

I think attitudes like this sum up exactly what the problem is.

Attack the OP and take a “if you’re not one of us, you must be one of them” attitude.

It’s a sad reflection of many in N(and in the Republic) that a rejection of sectarianism is seen as a reason to be attacked by the hardcore from both sides.

People have a strange habit of quoting me and coming up with a response that has nothing to do with what I wrote.

I have no idea what religion the OP is and couldn't care less. I'm all for the secularisation of the north and believe schools should be integrated.

Junkyard Tom · 16-10-2017 7:20pm

murphaph wrote: »

There's definitely a distinct NI identity.

Is there? What characterises it?

View · 16-10-2017 8:14pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

murphaph wrote: »

There's definitely a distinct NI identity.

Is there? What characterises it?

Animosity to “the south”. It applies to many but by no means all people in both communities in NI. Although, obviously it is based on entirely different political reasons.

murphaph · 16-10-2017 8:46pm

View wrote: »

Animosity to “the south”. It applies to many but by no means all people in both communities in NI. Although, obviously it is based on entirely different political reasons.

That's one thing alright. We're either Mexico or the Free State lol.

blackwhite · 16-10-2017 9:07pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

People have a strange habit of quoting me and coming up with a response that has nothing to do with what I wrote.

I have no idea what religion the OP is and couldn't care less. I'm all for the secularisation of the north and believe schools should be integrated.

The insinuation in your first post was very clear. Twist and try to spin it as something else if you want, but anyone who’s familiar with the various NI postings on here over the past few years knows exactly what you meant with your loaded question.

Junkyard Tom · 16-10-2017 10:33pm

View wrote: »

Animosity to “the south”. It applies to many but by no means all people in both communities in NI. Although, obviously it is based on entirely different political reasons.

I think you might find that this animosity to the South, you highlight, is largely attributable to people who'd describe themselves as British.

blackwhite wrote: »

The insinuation in your first post was very clear.

Clear how?

anyone who’s familiar with the various NI postings on here ... knows exactly what you meant with your loaded question

Spit it out, because I haven't a clue what you're on about.

blanch152 · 16-10-2017 10:47pm

Rory McIlroy is on record as to how he feels different to the British and also different to the Irish which has made him uncomfortable about who to represent in the Olympics.

There are many young people across Northern Ireland across both traditions who feel different to their parents. This is not surprising, we are seeing the same in the South with the family allegiance to the civil war parties fading with the generations. My family would have been dyed in the wool FFers, but there is no way I will ever vote for them.

The OP is brave to express that opinion in this forum which has traditionally been hostile to that type of sentiment. I find it a very interesting perspective and also ironic that the type of politics - moving away from traditional family allegiance - which is helping SF gain support in the South, also seems to offer the best long-term hope for sustainable peace within the current status quo in the North.

Charles Babbage · 16-10-2017 11:04pm

murphaph wrote: »

To me as a southerner a northern nationalist or unionist have a lot more in common with each other than a typical northern nationalist has with a typical southerner or a typical unionist has with a typical Brit. There's definitely a distinct NI identity. How could there not be after all NI has been through? Nationalists and unionists experienced all that together. Southerners and those from GB don't have that collective experience.

A person in Kerry has more in common with someone from Fermanagh or South Armagh than they do with people in Dublin, and vica versa.

Jim2007 · 17-10-2017 12:00am

blanch152 wrote: »

This is not surprising, we are seeing the same in the South with the family allegiance to the civil war parties fading with the generations.

I don't believe it's the same, their reality, has become our history. By that I mean the tensions and the injustices that are still real in NI are something kids ready about in schools in the south. With every decade the divide grows greater.

Junkyard Tom · 17-10-2017 12:18am

Jim2007 wrote: »

I don't believe it's the same, their reality, has become our history. By that I mean the tensions and the injustices that are still real in NI are something kids ready about in schools in the south. With every decade the divide grows greater.

I can't find it but I saw a bar chart recently that showed that support for a UI is rising among younger people in Ireland (26 counties). Also, in the north, the DUP have done very little but underscore that they have no intention of treating nationalists with respect and with Brexit looming I'd say there'll be a strengthening of support for a UI amongst young people there too.

riffmongous · 17-10-2017 12:19am

Still no one has said what a NIish identity actually entails? Does it mean the same thing to an Protestant/Catholic/Nationalist/Unionist/Loyalist/Other? Does it/can it exist outside those tags or can you be a mix? Who would you vote for? Do any of the parties acknowledge a Northern Irish identity?

Edit: Tags reads awfully like Taigs

murphaph · 17-10-2017 6:02am

Charles Babbage wrote: »

A person in Kerry has more in common with someone from Fermanagh or South Armagh than they do with people in Dublin, and vica versa.

I presume you're talking about rural dwellers in particular? An urbanite from Tralee has much more in common with one from Swords than one from Enniskillen!

We each go through different health systems, with a very different set of expectations in each jurisdiction. We each have different school systems. In the north you have the 11+ and grammar schools and GCSES and A levels. It's all different and how you get into a university there is different too. The republic is much more competitive (not always nice, it can feel cut throat too) IMO. Perhaps that's what has equipped us to stand on our own two feet for most of our recent history.

As the republic becomes more pluralistic it changes further. The republic has changed socially to a much greater degree than NI. We have one last great social question to resolve so our women aren't forced to a foreign country to have abortions. NI will still be arguing about flags long after we've sorted this issue.

I think it's odd to expect people who've grown up under different systems to be the same. Austrians are similar to Bavarians but still have a distinct identity.

Fr Tod Umptious · 17-10-2017 6:35am

View wrote: »

Animosity to “the south”. It applies to many but by no means all people in both communities in NI. Although, obviously it is based on entirely different political reasons.

I'd say ambivalence more than animosity.

And it's ambivalence towards the rest of the UK as well as towards the ROI.

murphaph · 17-10-2017 6:58am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I'd say ambivalence more than animosity.

And it's ambivalence towards the rest of the UK as well as towards the ROI.

I think there's both in play. There is mostly ambivalence (which to be fair is largely reciprocal) but also in the more extreme ends of the spectrum, both nationalist and unionist there is certainly a degree of animosity towards the "Free or Papal State". But yeah, ambivalence is more like it for the majority.

blanch152 · 17-10-2017 9:51am

Charles Babbage wrote: »

A person in Kerry has more in common with someone from Fermanagh or South Armagh than they do with people in Dublin, and vica versa.

I don't think so, there is a completely different culture up North in everyday life.

Jim2007 wrote: »

I don't believe it's the same, their reality, has become our history. By that I mean the tensions and the injustices that are still real in NI are something kids ready about in schools in the south. With every decade the divide grows greater.

While I would argue that a lot of the tensions in Northern Ireland are false and much of the remaining injustice is perceived rather than real, the fact that they are seen as reality in the North and history in the South only reinforces the point that the two halves of the island are drifting further apart rather than closer.

blanch152 · 17-10-2017 9:55am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I can't find it but I saw a bar chart recently that showed that support for a UI is rising among younger people in Ireland (26 counties). Also, in the north, the DUP have done very little but underscore that they have no intention of treating nationalists with respect and with Brexit looming I'd say there'll be a strengthening of support for a UI amongst young people there too.

All the DUP have said in terms of "disrespecting" nationalists is that they won't waste money on a pointless Irish Language Act, and a lot of people in the South have a great deal of sympathy for that view in light of the complete waste of money that our Language Act is.

As for the rise in support for a UI among young people, that reflects a worrying trend right across Europe, most recently seen in the Austrian election, but also in Germany, France and Brexit, where the resurgence of right-wing nationalism is becoming a serious problem.

murphaph · 17-10-2017 10:19am

People in the republic will generally "support" a UI if asked "would you support a UI?" but if asked "would you pay 20% more taxes for a UI?" the answer will be less supportive ;-)

Then there's the whole sectarianism thing. We simply don't have sectarianism in the republic (any more anyway). It would be an extremely unwelcome thing. That's why I've always maintained, no UI before NI citizens are (to a great extent) happy living with one another under the status quo.

We don't have "peace walls" in our cities. If that isn't a clear indication of a different culture/identity then I don't know what is tbh.

schizo1014 · 17-10-2017 10:29am

As was asked already what is Northern Irish identity?

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2017 10:36am

Ulsterman96 wrote: »

My question is, I am a 19 year old from the north and come from a very mixed religious background family, and growing up I was raised not to judge people on where they're from or what religion, political stance they belong to and I am thankful for this. I am aware of both my linage of having both grandparents from the south and grandparents of Scottish decent, and recently have become very compelled to embrace both cultures, but whilst doing so, especially in the north it feels like its either, you're British or you're , and I honestly feel I do not belong to any of these and struggle with my identity because of the divide of the island and so I feel Northern is the only identity I feel comfortable expressing and so I just wanted to get other peoples opinions of this identity from across .

I am not sure what the problem is here. Bar indecision. You can identify with whatever you wish. The GFA allows and encourages it.

murphaph · 17-10-2017 10:46am

schizo1014 wrote: »

As was asked already what is Northern Irish identity?

Idk, what's is Irish identity?

blanch152 · 17-10-2017 11:01am

schizo1014 wrote: »

As was asked already what is Northern Irish identity?

There are a number of interesting news articles on the issue, some of them revolving around Rory McIlroy, a Northern Irish Catholic who identifies with the Red Hand of Ulster flag:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/11/sports/golf/northern-irelands-mcilroy-transcends-boundaries.html

https://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/patrickroberts/is-rory-mcilroy-british-irish-or-both

"he may be representative of a new identity in Ireland, neither Irish nor British but an amalgam of both."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/what-exactly-does-it-mean-to-be-northern-irish-1.3033839

"Whatever the validity of any of the claims that have been built around the Northern Irish identity – and in spite of having no clear unique culture, flag, passport, anthem, language, shared history, currency, traditions of state, or any of the other usual trappings of national belonging – the Northern Irish identity is not going away anytime soon, and political representatives could do well to move to acknowledge this new and highly unlikely constituency."

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/why-you-southerners-will-never-really-understand-someone-like-rory-or-even-me-26898180.html

"The latter identity was much more likely to be claimed by those aged between 18 and 29 -- people whose formative years weren't played out during the Troubles.

Many of us feel British, many feel Irish, some feel both and some feel neither.

Some might say we're mongrels; I prefer inbetweeners."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/12/brexit-own-goal-changes-politics-northern-ireland

Fintan O'Toole's take on it.

"This is a symptom of a bigger change: political identity in Northern Ireland is now breaking down, not into the old “two traditions” (a euphemism for the sectarian divide) but into three."

In my opinion it is quite difficult to put a finger on what exactly is meant by a Northern Irish identity, but what is clear is that it is a real phenomenon, that many people are identifying with it, that the current sectarian parties on both sides in the North have no clue how to respond to it and finally, that it represents the prospect of a real bright future for Northern Ireland, and by extension all who live on this island, even thought it means we may never be united.

schizo1014 · 17-10-2017 11:05am

murphaph wrote: »

Idk, what's is Irish identity?

Irish identity is a cultural identity. Its the language, music, folklore, sports, literature, art and everything else associated with being Irish.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2017 11:05am

he may be representative of a new identity in Ireland, neither Irish nor British but an amalgam of both

Or maybe he is justifiably afraid of involving himself in a ****storm.

The fact is that you can be any identity you want in any part of the world. And many people do without difficulty.

Fr Tod Umptious · 17-10-2017 11:12am

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't think so, there is a completely different culture up North in everyday life.

While I would argue that a lot of the tensions in Northern Ireland are false and much of the remaining injustice is perceived rather than real, the fact that they are seen as reality in the North and history in the South only reinforces the point that the two halves of the island are drifting further apart rather than closer.

Census information from 2011 indicates that the religious makeup of NI is getting more even, Catholics are almost 50% of the populations at this stage

But what is also interesting is that while 53% of Catholics seem themselves as "Irish Only", 26% see themselves as "Northern Irish Only".

So basically a quarter of the Catholic population are ambivalent towards the the South.

I'm from the west of Ireland by the way and live in Kerry now

I have always seem myself as having more in common with people from the rest of the ROI, be they rural or urban.

I got far more joy out of seeing Padraig Harrington win his majors than I did out the McElroy, Clarke or McDowell winning theirs

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2017 11:21am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Census information from 2011 indicates that the religious makeup of NI is getting more even, Catholics are almost 50% of the populations at this stage

But what is also interesting is that while 53% of Catholics seem themselves as "Irish Only", 26% see themselves as "Northern Irish Only".

So basically a quarter of the Catholic population are ambivalent towards the the South.

I'm from the west of Ireland by the way and live in Kerry now

I have always seem myself as having more in common with people from the rest of the ROI, be they rural or urban.

I got far more joy out of seeing Padraig Harrington win his majors than I did out the McElroy, Clarke or McDowell winning theirs

Personally, when it comes to the inevitable debate about a UI, I am delighted it won't be along religious lines.

Fr Tod Umptious · 17-10-2017 12:02pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Personally, when it comes to the inevitable debate about a UI, I am delighted it won't be along religious lines.

I totally agree with that

The more variance when it come to national identity and religion the better.

Thomas__ · 17-10-2017 12:43pm

Ulsterman96 wrote: »

My question is, I am a 19 year old from the north and come from a very mixed religious background family, and growing up I was raised not to judge people on where they're from or what religion, political stance they belong to and I am thankful for this. I am aware of both my linage of having both grandparents from the south and grandparents of Scottish decent, and recently have become very compelled to embrace both cultures, but whilst doing so, especially in the north it feels like its either, you're British or you're Irish, and I honestly feel I do not belong to any of these and struggle with my identity because of the divide of the island and so I feel Northern Irish is the only identity I feel comfortable expressing and so I just wanted to get other peoples opinions of this identity from across Ireland.

That all sounds very progressive of you and you are right to be thankful to your parents that they´ve raised you in such a sense. The problem you and many others like you from NI who are stuck between the divide of cultures or more precisely identity which is to this day always politically tainted is an old one and the term or feeling of being "northern-irish" seems to be a way out of this never ending circle of "choose your side" in NI. I´ve met a couple of posters on irish forums from NI who adopted that term for themselves in order to a) make it a part of their own identity for the reason of being born in a culturally/religious mixed family and seeking to avoid being dragged into this long ongoing conflict between Irish Republican Nationalists and British Irish Unionists and Loyalists. But I do have to say that from all those posters from NI, those who took on the "northern-irish" label were rather few in compare to the whole of them.

If it wasn´t for the stupidity of the usual "taking sides" posters on both sides CNR and PUL, you´d be in rather lucky situation cos you can choose whatever suits you from all the cultures represented in your Family and that can give one a varity of opportunities and following of interests.

I don´t regard the term "northern-irish" as being a negative one, but I still realise that this is a matter of the difference between the generations and of course the environment and family affiliations one grew up with.

The only advice I could give, if I may say so, is to simply stick to it and the more of your generation and generations to come take that for themselves as well, the better cos that appears to be the way out of this silly and sometimes insane running in circles which many of the older ones who lived through the troubles are doing to this day. It´s good to see some younger people rejecting to take part in that old silly game cos it´s a thing where no-one can win, but every part can run along with his / her frustrations that come along with it.

I have met people from both parts of the divide on this place and others. The only thing they are doing and that is really day in day out from early morning to late night is to play that silly game of running around in circles where every side gives out to the other and vice versa. For a while this can have some funny and laughable moments, but the more one watches - respectively - read it, the more it is getting boring and one starts to wonder whether these people have got nothing better to do than that. It appears like having the troubles shifted from the streets to the Internet and if you dare to refuse both sides and try to stand your ground as being neither of them, you´ll have to endure some harsh attacks on yourself and all the slanderings and mud slinging that goes along with it. It´s a waste of time and I took part in that wasting my time but frankly, despite the disgust and sheer utter inconveniences, I have learned a lot from those Northerners who can´t put the past behind and rather stick to it as if they could compensate anything while being at it. That´s a matter for the individual involved and the moment one agrees with one side, the other counter side treats one as either an Irish Republican / Nationalist or British Unionist / Loyalist, always depending on the discussed matter at hand. Telling the chaps that one won´t have any of it doesn´t make a difference and is duly ignored for "the sake of the point socoring game" that runs between them.

To be most frank on the matter, it doesn´t matters much to me what a person is in regards of his identity cos what really counts is the character of the person and to judge one on that level it needs to learn to know the person. In short everyone is a human being in the first place to me, his identity is a part of the person but every person should be free to choose which part of the identiy given to him by ancestry is the part that suits him best. That is in my opinion an important part of human freedom, but as you may have experienced yourself, you meet more of the sort of stupid c*nts in your life than you meet the intelligent ones cos the stupid ones are almost or more often the louder and the intolerant.

Keep your chosen identity and try to make the best out of it. If I were in your place I would be glad to have all that what interests me as a part of my ancestry. That reference goes more on cultural matters such as traditional music from Scotland and Ireland (both North and South). The people in NI have much more in common as what divides them, if it wasn´t for stupid politics, it wouldn´t be such a problem and no-one wouldn´t ask whether one sees himself more as British, Irish or Northern-Irish.

Good luck to you and keep up the good manners and be what you like to be, Northern-Irish posting as Ulsterman (even your nickname could be enough to put some others off, as the reference is most occupied by the Unionists if you ask some others, but fair enough).

Thomas__ · 17-10-2017 12:52pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Census information from 2011 indicates that the religious makeup of NI is getting more even, Catholics are almost 50% of the populations at this stage

But what is also interesting is that while 53% of Catholics seem themselves as "Irish Only", 26% see themselves as "Northern Irish Only".

So basically a quarter of the Catholic population are ambivalent towards the the South.

I'm from the west of Ireland by the way and live in Kerry now

I have always seem myself as having more in common with people from the rest of the ROI, be they rural or urban.

I got far more joy out of seeing Padraig Harrington win his majors than I did out the McElroy, Clarke or McDowell winning theirs

Personally, when it comes to the inevitable debate about a UI, I am delighted it won't be along religious lines.

The religious lines have always been abused for determining the political affiliations of Republican/Nationalist and Unionist/Loyalist people, even by considering the rather few Protestants who turned Republican and Nationalist in the 20th Century.

Look at the post of the OP, he and his stance on the whole matter sheds light on the future and if there will be a UI one day, it´ll be through the change of minds and hearts of younger generations with people as progressive like he is and his parents are. You can´t build a UI with the old grumpy trench fighters who are still stuck in the past of the troubles and continue to play their silly and boring tit-for-tat game on and on. But you can build a UI with the mindset of this OP who appears as much open minded as a peaceful NI demands to path the way to a UI in which everyone can live the way he likes and be what he or she likes to be without being exposed to suffer from silly prejudice like generations had to endure before him.

If you can´t derive some hope for a better future by the like of the OP, then I don´t know where this chance for a peaceful UI should come from, cos the politicians can´t deliver that on their own, it takes the whole of the people to achieve that UI, otherwise it won´t be achieved at all cos you need the consent of a majority of the people for a UI on both sides of the border. That is a well known fact.

riffmongous · 17-10-2017 3:03pm

blanch152 wrote: »

There are a number of interesting news articles on the issue, some of them revolving around Rory McIlroy, a Northern Irish Catholic who identifies with the Red Hand of Ulster flag:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/11/sports/golf/northern-irelands-mcilroy-transcends-boundaries.html

https://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/patrickroberts/is-rory-mcilroy-british-irish-or-both

"he may be representative of a new identity in Ireland, neither Irish nor British but an amalgam of both."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/what-exactly-does-it-mean-to-be-northern-irish-1.3033839

"Whatever the validity of any of the claims that have been built around the Northern Irish identity – and in spite of having no clear unique culture, flag, passport, anthem, language, shared history, currency, traditions of state, or any of the other usual trappings of national belonging – the Northern Irish identity is not going away anytime soon, and political representatives could do well to move to acknowledge this new and highly unlikely constituency."

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/why-you-southerners-will-never-really-understand-someone-like-rory-or-even-me-26898180.html

"The latter identity was much more likely to be claimed by those aged between 18 and 29 -- people whose formative years weren't played out during the Troubles.

Many of us feel British, many feel Irish, some feel both and some feel neither.

Some might say we're mongrels; I prefer inbetweeners."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/12/brexit-own-goal-changes-politics-northern-ireland

Fintan O'Toole's take on it.

"This is a symptom of a bigger change: political identity in Northern Ireland is now breaking down, not into the old “two traditions” (a euphemism for the sectarian divide) but into three."

In my opinion it is quite difficult to put a finger on what exactly is meant by a Northern Irish identity, but what is clear is that it is a real phenomenon, that many people are identifying with it, that the current sectarian parties on both sides in the North have no clue how to respond to it and finally, that it represents the prospect of a real bright future for Northern Ireland, and by extension all who live on this island, even thought it means we may never be united.

But the problem is so far it only seems to be a rejection of other sides rather than anything concrete itself, and how long will this last for? Once more people start using it it's going to take on the characteristics of those people and then is it still going to be so acceptable?

munsterlegend · 17-10-2017 3:03pm

blanch152 wrote: »

All the DUP have said in terms of "disrespecting" nationalists is that they won't waste money on a pointless Irish Language Act, and a lot of people in the South have a great deal of sympathy for that view in light of the complete waste of money that our Language Act is.

As for the rise in support for a UI among young people, that reflects a worrying trend right across Europe, most recently seen in the Austrian election, but also in Germany, France and Brexit, where the resurgence of right-wing nationalism is becoming a serious problem.

Are you having a laugh? The DUP denigrate Irish culture at every turn and openly do so. They don't show leadership but basically play to their electorate. Sinn Fein at least say the right things about a shared future whether you believe them or not is another thing.

The DUP and its ilk are a parasite who live off tribal hatred.

blanch152 · 17-10-2017 3:33pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

Are you having a laugh? The DUP denigrate Irish culture at every turn and openly do so. They don't show leadership but basically play to their electorate. Sinn Fein at least say the right things about a shared future whether you believe them or not is another thing.

The DUP and its ilk are a parasite who live off tribal hatred.

I have no time for either the DUP or SF, they are both sectarian parties as far as I am concerned. Each time one or other loses votes, messes up or gets caught out in a lie is a good day in my opinion.

riffmongous wrote: »

But the problem is so far it only seems to be a rejection of other sides rather than anything concrete itself, and how long will this last for? Once more people start using it it's going to take on the characteristics of those people and then is it still going to be so acceptable?

I get that, but more and more people, especially young people, in the North are rejecting the sectarianism of the two main parties and looking for an alternative. They see this alternative as Northern Irish, not British, but not fully Irish, or Irish with a British tinge, or British with an Irish tinge. McIlroy and others give voice to this, and the identity is at yet unclear and/or not fully formed.

What is fascinating, and as O'Toole has suggested in his writing, is that it offers a third way forward to a long-lasting solution to the Northern Ireland question. Of course it will get ridicule from the extremists on both sides, some of whom reside on here, and it will endure peaks and troughs in adoption, but the long-term trend will remain upwards.

munsterlegend · 17-10-2017 3:44pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I have no time for either the DUP or SF, they are both sectarian parties as far as I am concerned. Each time one or other loses votes, messes up or gets caught out in a lie is a good day in my opinion.

I get that, but more and more people, especially young people, in the North are rejecting the sectarianism of the two main parties and looking for an alternative. They see this alternative as Northern Irish, not British, but not fully Irish, or Irish with a British tinge, or British with an Irish tinge. McIlroy and others give voice to this, and the identity is at yet unclear and/or not fully formed.

What is fascinating, and as O'Toole has suggested in his writing, is that it offers a third way forward to a long-lasting solution to the Northern Ireland question. Of course it will get ridicule from the extremists on both sides, some of whom reside on here, and it will endure peaks and troughs in adoption, but the long-term trend will remain upwards.

Quote: munsterlegend
Are you having a laugh? The DUP denigrate Irish culture at every turn and openly do so. They don't show leadership but basically play to their electorate. Sinn Fein at least say the right things about a shared future whether you believe them or not is another thing.

The DUP and its ilk are a parasite who live off tribal hatred.

I have no time for either the DUP or SF, they are both sectarian parties as far as I am concerned. Each time one or other loses votes, messes up or gets caught out in a lie is a good day in my opinion.]

You completely ignored the point that I made though. The DUP have denigrated the Irish identity far beyond any Irish language act.

The northern Irish identity is a fudge and a sign that British rule has not converted people to a British identity which is essentially English identity anyway. I think more people will move further and further away from this British identity with brexit.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2017 4:03pm

If, as O'Toole suggests, this is a 'political identity' then where is the political party to represent that identity if it is large and getting larger?

It doesn't exist. There isn't even a sign of one emerging.

blanch152 · 17-10-2017 4:23pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

You completely ignored the point that I made though. The DUP have denigrated the Irish identity far beyond any Irish language act.

The northern Irish identity is a fudge and a sign that British rule has not converted people to a British identity which is essentially English identity anyway. I think more people will move further and further away from this British identity with brexit.

The DUP have denigrated the Irish identity, SF have denigrated the British identity, Tweedledum and Tweedledee. British rule has not converted people to a British identity but the South hasn't converted the North to an Irish identity, more Tweedledum and Tweedledee. More people will move further and further ways from the British identity with Brexit, more will move from the Irish identity with Brexit, Tweedledum and Tweedledee.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If, as O'Toole suggests, this is a 'political identity' then where is the political party to represent that identity if it is large and getting larger?

It doesn't exist. There isn't even a sign of one emerging.

Who said it was "large and getting larger". All that has been said is that it is growing. Look at the South, and the space occupied by non-FF, non-FG over the last twenty years. Everyone from the PDs to Democratic Left to Labour to PBP to the Greens to SF have appealed to that space and occupied it with none of them able to consolidate it. A similar process is under way in the North, and we wait to see who fills the vacuum.

A Little Pony · 17-10-2017 4:27pm

Love my orange heritage, it's in my blood. I am what I am as the phrase says. I am attending a Christianing this weekend in a Catholic church for my Nephew, I will still be buying a little orange Sash as a present. He will always have orange blood in his veins.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2017 4:34pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The DUP have denigrated the Irish identity, SF have denigrated the British identity, Tweedledum and Tweedledee. British rule has not converted people to a British identity but the South hasn't converted the North to an Irish identity, more Tweedledum and Tweedledee. More people will move further and further ways from the British identity with Brexit, more will move from the Irish identity with Brexit, Tweedledum and Tweedledee.

Who said it was "large and getting larger". All that has been said is that it is growing. Look at the South, and the space occupied by non-FF, non-FG over the last twenty years. Everyone from the PDs to Democratic Left to Labour to PBP to the Greens to SF have appealed to that space and occupied it with none of them able to consolidate it. A similar process is under way in the North, and we wait to see who fills the vacuum.

Cultural identities have not filled or tried to fill the vacuums, political identities have.

Identifying as British, Irish or northern Irish is not a 'political' identity. You could be identifying as British but be politically the same as somebody who identifies as Irish.
Many people who identify as Irish would be politically Unionist for instance. And vice versa.

O'Toole is claiming a 'political' identity for those who identify as northern Irish. We have no way of knowing what their political identity will be.

blanch152 · 17-10-2017 4:41pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Cultural identities have not filled or tried to fill the vacuums, political identities have.

Identifying as British, Irish or northern Irish is not a 'political' identity. You could be identifying as British but be politically the same as somebody who identifies as Irish.
Many people who identify as Irish would be politically Unionist for instance. And vice versa.

O'Toole is claiming a 'political' identity for those who identify as northern Irish. We have no way of knowing what their political identity will be.

I think what Mr. O'Toole is hinting at is satisfaction with the current status quo as a political identity. I may be wrong on this (and Brexit is a disturbance to this) but there is a whole generation that have grown up with a devolved Assembly, rule from Westminister and a smidgen of influence from Dublin. It has largely worked well for them and they are unlikely to seek change just for one side or the other.

MayoSalmon · 17-10-2017 4:44pm

Junkyard Tom wrote:

Is there? What characterises it?

Being born in the north for a start. Northern Ireland should be its own sovereign state at this stage and let them both get on with it.

A Little Pony · 17-10-2017 4:50pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Junkyard Tom wrote:

Is there? What characterises it?

Being born in the north for a start. Northern Ireland should be its own sovereign state at this stage and let them both get on with it.

Could not run itself on it's own economically.

murphaph · 17-10-2017 5:01pm

A Little Pony wrote: »

Could not run itself on it's own economically.

If Brexit goes as tits up as it's looking like you may find out sooner rather than later when the English working classes demand the jettisoning of any expensive appendages!

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2017 5:06pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I think what Mr. O'Toole is hinting at is satisfaction with the current status quo as a political identity. I may be wrong on this (and Brexit is a disturbance to this) but there is a whole generation that have grown up with a devolved Assembly, rule from Westminister and a smidgen of influence from Dublin. It has largely worked well for them and they are unlikely to seek change just for one side or the other.

If this identity starts to show itself electorally I guess it would be significant.
As it isn't I would guess it is an identity born out of frustration (with the GFA process and normalisation of society) with a bit of cultural confusion.

murphaph · 17-10-2017 5:13pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If this identity starts to show itself electorally I guess it would be significant.
As it isn't I would guess it is an identity born out of frustration (with the GFA process and normalisation of society) with a bit of cultural confusion.

A lot of the people who currently don't vote at all are quite likely to be those who feel Northern Irish. They see a deeply sectarian political scene and are just turned off completely.

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