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Opinions on Irish identity
Comments
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I´d answer your question in that way that it might or even has become as a means to express ones utter rejection and refusal of either being a Shinner or a Unionist and thus placing oneself outside of the "traditional" side picking.
In spite of avoiding getting personal with you, it really appears that you refuse to think outside of the box and take a different angle to look at a subject with an open mind. It is quite this attitude to refuse to consider new developments and answer them by taking into account what reasons might behind it and what drives it.
I know that you´re a SF supporter and that´s your given right to be, such as it is for any Unionist to be what he is. What is inbetween all this is that neither SF nor any Unionist Party will ever achieve it to bridge this gap within the society of NI because each one of them is too eager to keep the status quo working for the sake of keeping their votes and the power they have upon their communities. It appears that a new development has started that comes from the centre of the society itself and has reached a cross community level on which the people decide for themselves what identity they think is more suitable to them and don´t listen to the old leaders any more. I call that a very positive and progressive development because the old leaders have failed to bring the people together because they´ve always put their party interests first.
It could become much possible that this future UI will emerge from the centre of the people and that without the usual claptrap from the old political parties. Well, if that happens, I would call it the best way chosen by the people themselves. I can´t imagine any better way than this.
So, your definition of a 'Northern Irish' identity is that it is not something?
Neither Shinner and not Unionist.
Could you tell us please what it is then and what makes it distinct from me. I am not Shinner nor am I Unionist either. I don't support any political party per se.
I am Irish though and I am from the northern part of the country.
Please describe what is distinctive about somebody with a Northern Irish identity?
And if the OP could chime in here too that would be enlightening.
How does the OP with his Northern Irish identity propose getting rights for all the people living there for instance? DOes he/she think they would come up against the same regressive brick wall that has collapsed the executive?0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »I´d answer your question in that way that it might or even has become as a means to express ones utter rejection and refusal of either being a Shinner or a Unionist and thus placing oneself outside of the "traditional" side picking.
In spite of avoiding getting personal with you, it really appears that you refuse to think outside of the box and take a different angle to look at a subject with an open mind. It is quite this attitude to refuse to consider new developments and answer them by taking into account what reasons might behind it and what drives it.
I know that you´re a SF supporter and that´s your given right to be, such as it is for any Unionist to be what he is. What is inbetween all this is that neither SF nor any Unionist Party will ever achieve it to bridge this gap within the society of NI because each one of them is too eager to keep the status quo working for the sake of keeping their votes and the power they have upon their communities. It appears that a new development has started that comes from the centre of the society itself and has reached a cross community level on which the people decide for themselves what identity they think is more suitable to them and don´t listen to the old leaders any more. I call that a very positive and progressive development because the old leaders have failed to bring the people together because they´ve always put their party interests first.
It could become much possible that this future UI will emerge from the centre of the people and that without the usual claptrap from the old political parties. Well, if that happens, I would call it the best way chosen by the people themselves. I can´t imagine any better way than this.
So, your definition of a 'Northern Irish' identity is that it is not something?
Neither Shinner and not Unionist.
Could you tell us please what it is then and what makes it distinct from me. I am not Shinner nor am I Unionist either. I don't support any political party per se.
I am Irish though and I am from the northern part of the country.
Please describe what is distinctive about somebody with a Northern Irish identity?
And if the OP could chime in here too that would be enlightening.
How does the OP with his Northern Irish identity propose getting rights for all the people living there for instance? DOes he/she think they would come up against the same regressive brick wall that has collapsed the executive?
I thought that I wouldn´t trust my eyes reading the underlined parts in your post cos from those posters I´ve been engaged with on here you´ve been the one I always had down as a SF supporter in regards of the threads where SF was the subject of the debate. Well, I have to say that if you really mean what you´ve written there, I´m rather surprised and notice that in some way of disbelieve.
I think that I have given my account on what Northern-Irish means to me already. I have also given you a link to an article about a former political party in NI which promoted this term as a new political agenda in NI and what was behind that. I wonder whether you´ve even read the article.
To find out what the differences might be, we could start to look at it from the reverse view and you tell what it isn´t in your opinion. One question to the subject is, in which way were Irish people referring to one another in regards of the Provinces and the parts of the Island of Ireland where they came from when going to another part of Ireland? I mean before partition took place.
As I said, the term itself bears much room for interpretations and for explanations, whether any of them is right lies in the eye of the beholder.0 -
I thought that I wouldn´t trust my eyes reading the underlined parts in your post cos from those posters I´ve been engaged with on here you´ve been the one I always had down as a SF supporter in regards of the threads where SF was the subject of the debate. Well, I have to say that if you really mean what you´ve written there, I´m rather surprised and notice that in some way of disbelieve.
I think that I have given my account on what Northern- means to me already. I have also given you a link to an article about a former political party in NI which promoted this term as a new political agenda in NI and what was behind that. I wonder whether you´ve even read the article.
To find out what the differences might be, we could start to look at it from the reverse view and you tell what it isn´t in your opinion. One question to the subject is, in which way were people referring to one another in regards of the Provinces and the parts of the Island of where they came from when going to another part of ? I mean before partition took place.
As I said, the term itself bears much room for interpretations and for explanations, whether any of them is right lies in the eye of the beholder.
Describing yourself as a subset of a wider definition I can understand 'southern Irish' southern American etc.
Describing yourself as a distinct identity i.e. Northern Irish, as distinct from Irish or British requires an explanation of what is 'distinct' about that identity.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »I thought that I wouldn´t trust my eyes reading the underlined parts in your post cos from those posters I´ve been engaged with on here you´ve been the one I always had down as a SF supporter in regards of the threads where SF was the subject of the debate. Well, I have to say that if you really mean what you´ve written there, I´m rather surprised and notice that in some way of disbelieve.
I think that I have given my account on what Northern- means to me already. I have also given you a link to an article about a former political party in NI which promoted this term as a new political agenda in NI and what was behind that. I wonder whether you´ve even read the article.
To find out what the differences might be, we could start to look at it from the reverse view and you tell what it isn´t in your opinion. One question to the subject is, in which way were people referring to one another in regards of the Provinces and the parts of the Island of where they came from when going to another part of ? I mean before partition took place.
As I said, the term itself bears much room for interpretations and for explanations, whether any of them is right lies in the eye of the beholder.
Describing yourself as a subset of a wider definition I can understand 'southern Irish' southern American etc.
Describing yourself as a distinct identity i.e. Northern Irish, as distinct from Irish or British requires an explanation of what is 'distinct' about that identity.
I try it another way. Accept the political realities and alter them accordingly. That means, accepting that NI is part of the UK and that the term "northern-irish" can bear the same meaning like being English, Scottish or Welsh. It can alter the perception of ones own identity in such a sense and make British just as much as it means in GB. Some way of "normalising" NI as part of the UK by adopting a similar perception the other nations in GB always had. That is good enough to overcome the old divide and that without neglecting being Irish as well.
Maybe you´re seeking an explanation which is neither here nor there in regards of what you expect it to be. I said before that it is a recent development and that means that it hasn´t reached its distinction yet. It can emerge as the part that brings the divided communities together and give them a common ground on which the old divide can be overcome so that everyone can be Irish without taking any political leaning on the old divide. That´s how I like to explain it. If that doesn´t satisfy you, I am sorry but you´ll have to use your own Imagination and interpretations and of course, you´re free to reject it and stick with your own distinction of your identity. Nobody is forcing you to adopt this term "northern-irish" for yourself.0 -
I try it another way. Accept the political realities and alter them accordingly. That means, accepting that NI is part of the UK and that the term "northern-" can bear the same meaning like being English, Scottish or Welsh. It can alter the perception of ones own identity in such a sense and make British just as much as it means in GB. Some way of "normalising" NI as part of the UK by adopting a similar perception the other nations in GB always had. That is good enough to overcome the old divide and that without neglecting being as well.
Maybe you´re seeking an explanation which is neither here nor there in regards of what you expect it to be. I said before that it is a recent development and that means that it hasn´t reached its distinction yet. It can emerge as the part that brings the divided communities together and give them a common ground on which the old divide can be overcome so that everyone can be without taking any political leaning on the old divide. That´s how I like to explain it. If that doesn´t satisfy you, I am sorry but you´ll have to use your own Imagination and interpretations and of course, you´re free to reject it and stick with your own distinction of your identity. Nobody is forcing you to adopt this term "northern-" for yourself.
There is no 'old divide'.
Northern Ireland society is STILL divided whether you be British, Irish, Northern Irish, Martian or otherwise.
Identifying as something other is not going to fix that divide or the reasons for it.
You will just get those who define themselves as 'Northern irish wanting certain things and others identifying as Northern Irish wanting other things and away we go again.
That is the confused logic here.
If it isn't then I am interested how somebody identifying as Northern Irish proposes to get rights for all citizens without coming up against the same walls as we see now.
In other words as the NI21 found out, it isn't enough.0 -
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FrancieBrady wrote: »I try it another way. Accept the political realities and alter them accordingly. That means, accepting that NI is part of the UK and that the term "northern-" can bear the same meaning like being English, Scottish or Welsh. It can alter the perception of ones own identity in such a sense and make British just as much as it means in GB. Some way of "normalising" NI as part of the UK by adopting a similar perception the other nations in GB always had. That is good enough to overcome the old divide and that without neglecting being as well.
Maybe you´re seeking an explanation which is neither here nor there in regards of what you expect it to be. I said before that it is a recent development and that means that it hasn´t reached its distinction yet. It can emerge as the part that brings the divided communities together and give them a common ground on which the old divide can be overcome so that everyone can be without taking any political leaning on the old divide. That´s how I like to explain it. If that doesn´t satisfy you, I am sorry but you´ll have to use your own Imagination and interpretations and of course, you´re free to reject it and stick with your own distinction of your identity. Nobody is forcing you to adopt this term "northern-" for yourself.
There is no 'old divide'.
Northern Ireland society is STILL divided whether you be British, Irish, Northern Irish, Martian or otherwise.
Identifying as something other is not going to fix that divide or the reasons for it.
You will just get those who define themselves as 'Northern irish wanting certain things and others identifying as Northern Irish wanting other things and away we go again.
That is the confused logic here.
If it isn't then I am interested how somebody identifying as Northern Irish proposes to get rights for all citizens without coming up against the same walls as we see now.
In other words as the NI21 found out, it isn't enough.
What´s the point in undermining every step towards overcoming the old trenches of which you speak are still there and according to your prediction won´t go away at all? I think and I hope that the younger generations will do things differently and move on.
If you wish that this old hat is to be worn further and further, you should be Aware that old problems not solved in time will be brought into the future and can even bare the way to a better future. Progress is the answer to it and I never said that progress is an easy undertaking and it needs both sides to achieve it. Just SF and the DUP seem to have become outdated with their policies to answer these problems.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/18/northern-ireland-power-sharing-talks-stalled-james-brokenshire
So much for progress on the parts of the DUP and SF.0 -
Ulsterman96 wrote: »My question is, I am a 19 year old from the north and come from a very mixed religious background family, and growing up I was raised not to judge people on where they're from or what religion, political stance they belong to and I am thankful for this. I am aware of both my linage of having both grandparents from the south and grandparents of Scottish decent, and recently have become very compelled to embrace both cultures, but whilst doing so, especially in the north it feels like its either, you're British or you're Irish, and I honestly feel I do not belong to any of these and struggle with my identity because of the divide of the island and so I feel Northern Irish is the only identity I feel comfortable expressing and so I just wanted to get other peoples opinions of this identity from across Ireland.
It's a tough one. I think more from mixed and Catholic backgrounds will have an NI identity and some moderate Unionists also.
There is a broader Irish identity: as in from the Island/country)as opposed to State). This would have been widespread pre-partition but this Irish identity is not now used by many Unionists due to confusion with the political 'Irish' identity. When you leave Ireland for a period this identity may become apparent.0 -
What´s the point in undermining every step towards overcoming the old trenches of which you speak are still there and according to your prediction won´t go away at all? I think and I hope that the younger generations will do things differently and move on.
If you wish that this old hat is to be worn further and further, you should be Aware that old problems not solved in time will be brought into the future and can even bare the way to a better future. Progress is the answer to it and I never said that progress is an easy undertaking and it needs both sides to achieve it. Just SF and the DUP seem to have become outdated with their policies to answer these problems.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/18/northern--power-sharing-talks-stalled-james-brokenshire
So much for progress on the parts of the DUP and SF.
What do all or most parties want in northern Ireland that has brought the situation to this pass?
You are asking that once again the cracks are papered over, we turn a blind eye and we move on to the next crisis?
And you are the one asking for 'change'?
There has been an ongoing attempt to normalise politics in northern Ireland since the GFA and there is one cohort who is standing full square in the way of that.
You can easily type 'they are all the same', but you cannot easily present the evidence to back that up.
Neither party are saints but there sure as hell is one party holding things up and still clinging on to notions of special status or rights they believe god and the queen entitle them to.
A Northern Irish identity will not solve that dilemna. Facing it down will.0 -
I don't see what's so confusing and impossible to understand about a Northern Irish sense of identity. If you can accept that someone identifies as either Irish or British; if you can accept that they identify with either Carlow or Fermanagh; if you can accept that they identify with Ulster or Munster - what's so hard to accept about them identifying as Northern Irish?0
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oscarBravo wrote: »I don't see what's so confusing and impossible to understand about a Northern sense of identity. If you can accept that someone identifies as either or British; if you can accept that they identify with either Carlow or Fermanagh; if you can accept that they identify with Ulster or Munster - what's so hard to accept about them identifying as Northern ?
No problem with 'n'orthern Ireland.
I have a problem with a Northern Irish identity which is, as the OP outlined, distinct from an Irish or British one. And which is, according to some on here, going to save us all.
I am trying to understand the distinction and it seems to be to not be something something.
Confused.
I outlined a a problem current in northern Ireland and asked how a Northern Irish identity was going to be able to solve that.
I think if we are honest about it, a Northern Irish identity will face the same problems.0 -
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But you can somehow wrap your head around the idea of a Scottish identity which is distinct from a British one?FrancieBrady wrote: »I have a problem with a Northern Irish identity which is, as the OP outlined, distinct from an Irish or British one.0 -
oscarBravo wrote: »But you can somehow wrap your head around the idea of a Scottish identity which is distinct from a British one?
Well I would have problems with what a British identity actually is, and I think they do too, but that is for another thread. But I do not have a problem with a Scottish one, no.0 -
Can't handle the fact that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom written in law. Why you are going on about the GFA is odd. It has nothing to do with that fact which you hate.Junkyard Tom wrote: »A Little Pony wrote: »Part of the United Kingdom recognized as such from the United Nations. Just deal with it.
Currently under UK jurisdiction subject to change in the GFA. The British have agreed that the future of the north is a matter for the people of Ireland alone without external impediment (i.e. the British Government).
The British agreed in the early 1990's they have no selfish or strategic interest in the north. Articles 2 and 3 remain codified in the Irish constitution. HM Treasury apparently despises the costs of the north. Unionism is now a diminishing minority that will be unable to hold back the tide that will wash away that stubborn orange hue.
Unionists need to come to terms with that.0 -
2 things come to mind reading this thread as a Derry man
1) That girl in the audience for the Irish presidential debate asking Martin McGuinness why he had "come down here to our country and got involved, stay in your own country".
2) Finn Harps fans singing to us "whats it like to have a queen" in the NW derby. (got to give it to them, thats a belter.0 -
Really? So you are struggling to see that people who have only ever known Northern Ireland, grew up in Northern Ireland think of themselves as having a Northern Irish identity? It's pretty normal and rational and I don't know what it is you don't get about people who are born in Northern Ireland and live in Northern Ireland having a Northern Irish identity.FrancieBrady wrote: »IMO, it´s got nothing to do with confusion, none at all. It´s more the way out of the old circles of divisive thinking and it appears that you probably refuse to realise that. But alas, we both have perceived the content of the OP in a different way.
To ask about the opinions of others is not always a meaning for or of confusion, it can as well bear the meaning of spreading an idea and check on others whether it can be brought on or not. But well, that´s just my interpretation and you might have another. Maybe the OP himself could give some statement regarding his intention to start this thread in the first place.
The OP mentions that he/she is 'struggling' with his/her identity.
Not all politics in the north are divisive or along sectarian lines. That is just lazy thinking.
It is quite possible to be progressive and non sectarian in how you conduct yourself politically.
But I agree, somebody needs to explain if this is a cultural or political identity or both, because even of the OP is not confused, I am, as to what exactly saying you are 'Northern Irish' means.
I see no culture or political party that is distinctly 'Northern Irish'. I would like somebody to explain what it is.
Unless you think everyone is a native Gael and should be speaking fluent Irish.0 -
A Little Pony wrote: »Really? So you are struggling to see that people who have only ever known Northern Ireland, grew up in Northern Ireland think of themselves as having a Northern Irish identity? It's pretty normal and rational and I don't know what it is you don't get about people who are born in Northern Ireland and live in Northern Ireland having a Northern Irish identity.
Unless you think everyone is a native Gael and should be speaking fluent Irish.
I am struggling yes, to see a distinction between them and me. And you, for that matter.
Can you outline it? Without telling us what they are not.0 -
They accept the constitutional position of the state, they recognize the legitimacy of it. A huge distinction from them to Irish nationalists like yourself who don't acknowledge it.FrancieBrady wrote: »A Little Pony wrote: »Really? So you are struggling to see that people who have only ever known Northern Ireland, grew up in Northern Ireland think of themselves as having a Northern Irish identity? It's pretty normal and rational and I don't know what it is you don't get about people who are born in Northern Ireland and live in Northern Ireland having a Northern Irish identity.
Unless you think everyone is a native Gael and should be speaking fluent Irish.
I am struggling yes, to see a distinction between them and me. And you, for that matter.
Can you outline it? Without telling us what they are not.0 -
A Little Pony wrote: »They accept the constitutional position of the state, they recognize the legitimacy of it. A huge distinction from them to nationalists like yourself who don't acknowledge it.
Anyone who voted for the GFA accepts that. SF accept that. There is legitimacy until the people decide otherwise.
That is no 'distinction' I'm afraid.
If you are saying they have accepted the status quo for all time then that just makes their identity wholly British. Whatever they might say, it's a delusion to think otherwise and back to the 'confusion' I mentioned.0 -
No country on this earth is for ALL time. They see themselves Northern Irish. A mix of being Irish and British.FrancieBrady wrote: »A Little Pony wrote: »They accept the constitutional position of the state, they recognize the legitimacy of it. A huge distinction from them to nationalists like yourself who don't acknowledge it.
Anyone who voted for the GFA accepts that. SF accept that. There is legitimacy until the people decide otherwise.
That is no 'distinction' I'm afraid.
If you are saying they have accepted the status quo for all time then that just makes their identity wholly British. Whatever they might say, it's a delusion to think otherwise and back to the 'confusion' I mentioned.0 -
I would compare it to changing governments.
The North of Ireland essentially has an on/off degree of self governance. It's part of the island of Ireland, which goes beyond politics.
I would suggest if Munster were similarly occupied, even any people loyal to the occupational forces, would still see themselves as being of Munster. Like the 'Love Ulster' parade and reference to Ulster men, I think there is some confusion from Loyalist elements that the Republic views Ulster as foreign in some manner. I mean why wouldn't we love Ulster?
The upshot of it is people in Northern Ireland, see themselves as being from Northern Ireland, Ulster etc. regardless of what government chases them for taxes. The British/Irish angle would be secondary after Ulster in my view. I'd go so far as to suggest that people abroad, (including the U.K.) would certainly consider them Irish.0 -
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A Little Pony wrote: »No country on this earth is for ALL time. They see themselves Northern . A mix of being and British.
We are all, or the majority of us, are mixes. I am a mix of Irish, Scottish and Welsh.
I don't for a minute identify as Irish/British because that is just confused.0 -
I'll extend on that. Scottish people see themselves as Scottish. The only people make more of the term British, in being British are sports commentators if a Scot wins an event, the English or Northern Irish Loyalists with an identity complex.0
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I haven't a clue what any of that means.FrancieBrady wrote: »Well I would have problems with what a British identity actually is, and I think they do too, but that is for another thread.
You don't have a problem with a Scottish person identifying as Scottish. You presumably don't have a problem with a Welsh person identifying as Welsh, or an English person identifying as English.But I do not have a problem with a Scottish one, no.
But you feel that someone from Northern Ireland ought to identify as either British or Irish?
You'll have to forgive me for thinking that that's a view informed more by your political views than by logic.0 -
Why? My son is half Irish, a quarter German and a quarter Hungarian and he identifies as all three.FrancieBrady wrote: »We are all, or the majority of us, are mixes. I am a mix of Irish, Scottish and Welsh.
I don't for a minute identify as Irish/British because that is just confused.0 -
oscarBravo wrote: »I haven't a clue what any of that means. You don't have a problem with a Scottish person identifying as Scottish. You presumably don't have a problem with a Welsh person identifying as Welsh, or an English person identifying as English.
But you feel that someone from Northern Ireland ought to identify as either British or Irish?
You'll have to forgive me for thinking that that's a view informed more by your political views than by logic.
So tell us what is the distinction between an Irish and a Northern Irish identity? What is a Northern Irish person 'identifying' with exactly?
Strikes me that this is another invention like the recent new found fervour and interest for Ulster Scots.
And to me it seems to be clung to on here as some kind of sign by those opposed to the rights of those who identify as Irish - that's just an observation.
Personally I have never met anyone who identifies as specifically 'Northern Irish'.0 -
Why? My son is half Irish, a quarter German and a quarter Hungarian and he identifies as all three.
Three distinct identities. Would be a bit confusing for me but best of good luck to him.
Would he identify as something different so as not to be seen as any one of the three? I doubt it.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »Three distinct identities. Would be a bit confusing for me but best of good luck to him.
Would he identify as something different so as not to be seen as any one of the three? I doubt it.
Francie what is you definition of Irishness ?0 -
Why do you have to identify yourself by differences?FrancieBrady wrote: »So tell us what is the distinction between an Irish and a Northern Irish identity?
Northern Ireland, I would have thought.What is a Northern Irish person 'identifying' with exactly?
What is a Longford person "identifying" with exactly? What's the distinction between a Longford person and a Westmeath person?0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »The assumption being made, wrongly, imo is that it is only republican/catholic/nationalist backgrounds who are opting to identify as 'Northern Irish'.
.
Nobody has made that statement, except yourself, which makes the rest of your post superfluous.
The great thing about the emergence of the Northern Irish identity is that it is coming from young people of both sides who are rejecting the preoccupations of the older sectarian generations. Of course, there are many who will blindly follow their family traditions but just as in the South, that is dying out.0 -
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oscarBravo wrote: »Why do you have to identify yourself by differences? Northern Ireland, I would have thought.
What is a Longford person "identifying" with exactly? What's the distinction between a Longford person and a Westmeath person?
Precisely, there is no difference in identity terms. Nor is there a distinction that I can see between me, a northern Irish, Ulster man and a 'Northern Irish' one.
I suspect it's a construct. Born out of frustration with an abnormal society, culturally abnormal because of partition and politically, because the peace process has stagnated.0
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