Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

1…4950525455…332

Comments

  • #1532
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    What about in cases of ffa or threat to mothers life?


  • #1533
    frag420
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,161 ✭✭✭frag420


    RobertKK wrote: »
    You are asking someone to go against their own conscience, to support something that is not seen as a choice, to view what someone views as a wrong to be viewed as a right.

    And you are demanding that a woman go against her own will, to maintain a pregnancy that they do not want. You want to support something that takes away their choice and because you perceive it to be righteous then they should have no say in the matter!?

    Can you see the hypocrisy are mouthing?


  • #1534
    dudara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    RobertKK wrote: »
    You are asking someone to go against their own conscience, to support something that is not seen as a choice, to view what someone views as a wrong to be viewed as a right.

    You don't have to support it, but I do feel that the right to choice needs to be supported.

    This is a really hard topic and I really do respect those who believe it's a sin and that it's wrong. That's a belief based on faith and I'm not going to knock it. There are others who find the topic unpleasant but don't believe it's necessarily wrong. I think the vast majority of people fall into one of these two camps.

    For me, choice needs to exist. People's faith and beliefs, their situation will guide them.


  • #1535
    Martina1991
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,548 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    frag420 wrote: »
    And you are demanding that a woman go against her own will, to maintain a pregnancy that they do not want. You want to support something that takes away their choice and because you perceive it to be righteous then they should have no say in the matter!?

    Can you see the hypocrisy are mouthing?

    If men could get pregnant abortions would be available like the flu jab.


  • #1536
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    frag420 wrote: »
    And you are demanding that a woman go against her own will, to maintain a pregnancy that they do not want. You want to support something that takes away their choice and because you perceive it to be righteous then they should have no say in the matter!?

    Can you see the hypocrisy are mouthing?

    People who want a clear conscience use what their own conscience tells them, not what someone else tells them what they must support because that is what their conscience tells them.

    It is not hypocrisy to vote for what one believes. It is internal hypocrisy to go against what one believes, because someone tells them they must do something against their own personal beliefs/opinions.
    Only a weak person who is easily malleable would do as you say, because you want them to believe what you want them to believe.


  • Advertisement
  • #1537
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    If men could get pregnant abortions would be available like the flu jab.

    That is a joke, right?

    If anything polls show more men support abortion than women.
    Out of the 55% who agree that expanding access to abortion should be one of the priorities for the next government, the region who polled highest was Dublin at 61% and at 56%, men are 1% more supportive than women. The age group 55-64 is the most supportive at 64%.

    http://www.newstalk.com/Half-of-Irish-people-agree-that-expanding-access-to-abortion-should-be-priority-for-next-government


  • #1538
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    I would prefer if people wouldn't try to impose their beliefs on others

    its like indoctrination

    people (women and their partner) should be free to make up their own minds and CHOOSE what is best for them in their own situation.


  • #1539
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    RobertKK wrote: »
    People who want a clear conscience use what their own conscience tells them, not what someone else tells them what they must support because that is what their conscience tells them.

    It is not hypocrisy to vote for what one believes. It is internal hypocrisy to go against what one believes, because someone tells them they must do something against their own personal beliefs/opinions.
    Only a weak person who is easily malleable would do as you say, because you want them to believe what you want them to believe.

    My friend and his wife have two children. The first pregnancy caused her crippling pain in her pelvis - pain which left her unable to walk for the last couple of months of the pregnancy. The second caused agonizing pain and left her bedbound for most of the 9 months. She almost died during the birth.

    She has been told that having another baby has a high chance of killing her and an almost certain result of leaving her permanently unable to walk.

    According the the 8th, she can only have an abortion if she is about to die; the nigh-certainty of being left permanently disabled is not considered important enough.

    Think about that; 'health' is not just talking about minor, passing discomfort, it's talking about basic bodily functions being seriously and permanently damaged.

    Is keeping your conscience squeaky-clean so vitally important that you're happy accept the undeniable fact that there are people, real born people with lives and families, people who will be left permanently disabled by a pregnancy who are victims right now of the extreme restrictions on abortion access in this country?


  • #1540
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    dudara wrote: »
    You don't have to support it, but I do feel that the right to choice needs to be supported.

    This is a really hard topic and I really do respect those who believe it's a sin and that it's wrong. That's a belief based on faith and I'm not going to knock it. There are others who find the topic unpleasant but don't believe it's necessarily wrong. I think the vast majority of people fall into one of these two camps.

    For me, choice needs to exist. People's faith and beliefs, their situation will guide them.

    It is not about it being a sin or not. There are atheists who are against abortion. Abortion for many is not a progressive thing. If a woman is ill and needs medical help her life obviously has to come first, most people except that.
    The problem is the people who argue abortion is a choice, go from limited abortion to open ended reasons for abortion, I think the problem for the repeal side is they have people who have some people with extreme views on what limits should be for abortion if the 8th amendment is to be removed or replaced, some want no limits on reason or time length.
    It is these extreme views that worry people, I think a lot would rather retain what we have than go into the unknown, given the repeal people argue that nothing should replace it. It would leave it open ended to where abortion laws could go.


  • #1541
    newdriverlad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭newdriverlad


    B0jangles wrote: »
    My friend and his wife have two children. The first pregnancy caused her crippling pain in her pelvis - pain which left her unable to walk for the last couple of months of the pregnancy. The second caused agonizing pain and left her bedbound for most of the 9 months. She almost died during the birth.

    She has been told that having another baby has a high chance of killing her and an almost certain result of leaving her permanently unable to walk.

    According the the 8th, she can only have an abortion if she is about to die; the nigh-certainty of being left permanently disabled is not considered important enough.

    Think about that; 'health' is not just talking about minor, passing discomfort, it's talking about basic bodily functions being seriously and permanently damaged.

    Is keeping your conscience squeaky-clean so vitally important that you're happy accept the undeniable fact that there are people, real born people with lives and families, people who will be left permanently disabled by a pregnancy who are victims right now of the extreme restrictions on abortion access in this country?

    I have known couples in similar situations and generally the guy had a vasectomy!


  • Advertisement
  • #1542
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    newdriverlad wrote: »
    I have known couples in similar situations and generally the guy had a vasectomy!

    Pregnancy after vasectomy is rare but it absolutely does happen

    https://www.babycenter.com/400_realistic-possibility-of-pregnancy-after-vasectomy_6646461_877.bc
    https://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/news/20040505/vasectomies-pregnancy-prevention


  • #1543
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    B0jangles wrote: »
    My friend and his wife have two children. The first pregnancy caused her crippling pain in her pelvis - pain which left her unable to walk for the last couple of months of the pregnancy. The second caused agonizing pain and left her bedbound for most of the 9 months. She almost died during the birth.

    She has been told that having another baby has a high chance of killing her and an almost certain result of leaving her permanently unable to walk.

    According the the 8th, she can only have an abortion if she is about to die; the nigh-certainty of being left permanently disabled is not considered important enough.

    Think about that; 'health' is not just talking about minor, passing discomfort, it's talking about basic bodily functions being seriously and permanently damaged.

    Is keeping your conscience squeaky-clean so vitally important that you're happy accept the undeniable fact that there are people, real born people with lives and families, people who will be left permanently disabled by a pregnancy who are victims right now of the extreme restrictions on abortion access in this country?

    Out of interest what actions have they taken to avoid pregnancy in the future? It does appear they saw the risk being worth it for the 2nd pregnancy.


  • #1544
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Crea wrote: »
    If only there was no such thing as an unplanned pregnancy. If only contraception didn't fail. If only women didn't become super fertile coming up to the menopause.
    Next your going to say married people shouldn't have sex which is my 13 year olds recommendation for unplanned pregnancy.

    why would you abort an unplanned baby and the wantvto have a baby after
    or did you not read what i said ?


  • #1545
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Out of interest what actions have they taken to avoid pregnancy in the future? It does appear they saw the risk being worth it for the 2nd pregnancy.

    I don't know, that's a very personal question that would not be comfortable asking. I do know that there are no 100% certain way to avoid pregnancy except total celibacy.

    The risk of permanent disability/death was raised only during the second pregnancy. I know that she was willing to suffer agony for several months to have their second child, I'm fairly sure that she's not willing to risk either life in a wheelchair or death for a third.


  • #1546
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    January wrote: »
    What about in cases of ffa or threat to mothers life?

    I have a sister who was told she had FFA and the baby would die soon after birth, a nurse in Dublin suggested about getting rid of the pregnancy...she had a good doctor who supported her, the child was born in Dublin, taken to Crumlin and is now living a normal life and plays sports.
    The arguments used for FFA are as if a diagnosis is black and white, when it is grey.


  • #1547
    newdriverlad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭newdriverlad


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Pregnancy after vasectomy is rare but it absolutely does happen

    https://www.babycenter.com/400_realistic-possibility-of-pregnancy-after-vasectomy_6646461_877.bc
    https://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/news/20040505/vasectomies-pregnancy-prevention

    They can also use other forms of contraception!
    They chances of them getting pregnant are very very slim.


  • #1548
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    newdriverlad wrote: »
    They can also use other forms of contraception!
    They chances of them getting pregnant are very very slim.

    Are they zero?

    Because that's the only level I'd feel safe at if I was in a situation where pregnancy means permanent disability or death to me, and I lived in a country which denies me the right to choose whether or not to take that risk.


  • #1549
    newdriverlad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭newdriverlad


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Are they zero?

    Because that's the only level I'd feel safe at if I was in a situation where pregnancy means permanent disability or death to me, and I lived in a country which denies me the right to choose whether or not to take that risk.

    An abortion could also fail!


  • #1550
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I have a sister who was told she had FFA and the baby would die soon after birth, a nurse in Dublin suggested about getting rid of the pregnancy...she had a good doctor who supported her, the child was born in Dublin, taken to Crumlin and is now living a normal life and plays sports.
    The arguments used for FFA are as if a diagnosis is black and white, when it is grey.

    Some are grey areas some like ancephaly are definitely black and white though or Edwards syndrome or many other syndromes.


  • #1551
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Tigger wrote: »
    why would you abort an unplanned baby and the wantvto have a baby after
    or did you not read what i said ?

    Because circumstances can and do change. Just because you have an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy and abort it does not mean you don't get to choose to plan a pregnancy at a later date.


  • Advertisement
  • #1552
    Crea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Crea


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I have a sister who was told she had FFA and the baby would die soon after birth, a nurse in Dublin suggested about getting rid of the pregnancy...she had a good doctor who supported her, the child was born in Dublin, taken to Crumlin and is now living a normal life and plays sports.
    The arguments used for FFA are as if a diagnosis is black and white, when it is grey.

    What ffa was your sisters child diagnosed with?
    In the cases of chromosomale anomalies there are no shades of grey,


  • #1553
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Crea wrote: »
    What ffa was your sisters child diagnosed with?
    In the cases of chromosomale anomalies there are no shades of grey,

    Basically the heart was so messed up, the baby when born wouldn't live. It has a name but I forget what it was called but it a very rare condition, there were at that time no other known cases in Ireland.


  • #1554
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,638 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I have a sister who was told she had FFA and the baby would die soon after birth, a nurse in Dublin suggested about getting rid of the pregnancy...she had a good doctor who supported her, the child was born in Dublin, taken to Crumlin and is now living a normal life and plays sports.
    The arguments used for FFA are as if a diagnosis is black and white, when it is grey.

    So was the diagnosis simply wrong and the child was fine, or does it have/did it have a diagnosed illness?

    In any case, obviously that is wonderful for your sister, and is a good argument for women being allowed to make these decisions themselves, especially because doctors can get things wrong.

    It's not an argument for forcing women to continue such a pregnancy, any more than someone whose baby died after birth would be an argument for enforced abortion in similar cases.

    It's also a very strong argument for allowing women to decide in general when their state of health requires an abortion, rather than a doctor - because as you point out, doctors sometimes do get it wrong. As happened in Galway.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #1555
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Basically the heart was so messed up, the baby when born wouldn't live. It has a name but I forget what it was called but it a very rare condition, there were at that time no other known cases in Ireland.

    Heart conditions are not FFA's. Still, it should be a women's right to choose whether she gives birth to a baby who could have severe health and medical problems.


  • #1556
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,638 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Basically the heart was so messed up, the baby when born wouldn't live. It has a name but I forget what it was called but it a very rare condition, there were at that time no other known cases in Ireland.

    So what happened when the child was born? Someone had misinterpreted the scan? Or it just wasn't fatal after all?

    It seems odd that a nurse talked to her about abortion - shouldn't that have been a doctor? Would a nurse have been able to make such a drastic diagnosis?

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #1557
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    January wrote: »
    Heart conditions are not FFA's. Still, it should be a women's right to choose whether she gives birth to a baby who could have severe health and medical problems.

    CS is severe and life limiting


  • #1558
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    CS is severe and life limiting

    Many conditions are severe and life-limiting but they're not FFA's. Parents should be able to make the decision for themselves whether they feel they can raise a child with a severe medical condition.


  • #1559
    Crea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Crea


    My sisters baby was diagnosed with Edwards Syndrome at 30 weeks. She was told her the Ionger she remained pregnant the more likely the baby would die in utero. She begged to be induced early but the doc said it could be construed as an abortion by law. She had to stay pregnant for another 8 weeks at which time she had a number of breakdowns and the baby died.
    Nothing can be done in these cases until the 8th ammendment is removed.


  • #1560
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Crea wrote: »
    My sisters baby was diagnosed with Edwards Syndrome at 30 weeks. She was told her the Ionger she remained pregnant the more likely the baby would die in utero. She begged to be induced early but the doc said it could be construed as an abortion by law. She had to stay pregnant for another 8 weeks at which time she had a number of breakdowns and the baby died.
    Nothing can be done in these cases until the 8th ammendment is removed.

    Your poor sister :(


  • Advertisement
  • #1561
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Crea wrote: »
    My sisters baby was diagnosed with Edwards Syndrome at 30 weeks. She was told her the Ionger she remained pregnant the more likely the baby would die in utero. She begged to be induced early but the doc said it could be construed as an abortion by law. She had to stay pregnant for another 8 weeks at which time she had a number of breakdowns and the baby died.
    Nothing can be done in these cases until the 8th ammendment is removed.

    No one should be forced to endure that. Love them both indeed.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement