Leinster v Munster Build Up Thread

leakyboots · 06-10-2017 12:00AM

I'd take Keats on current form, playing with a swagger and kicking well off the tee. Bleyendaal is gone completely off the boil... even though his general play in the first couple of games was actually quite good (but nightmare off the tee whatever is going on). I think he'll come back stronger from it because he strikes me as a very classy operator so maybe a bit of a rest/time out will do him good. The competition at 10 is great, they'll all raise their game. JJ was superb when he came on the last day, there was a great buzz around the ground even when he ran on.

Murray - Keats - Rory Scannell - Farrell... back three I'd say Conway is the only one nailed on but you'd imagine it'll be Zebo and Sweetnam for the other two slots. Not sure Zebo is up to pace yet personally... I'd love to see Wootton get a cut from the off, he's earned it - he's done nothing wrong, there was one match where the ball didn't come his way much but that's not on him obviously

Wish they'd move this back to the horsey house, Aviva is a dump, never make the trip up for it

molloyjh · 06-10-2017 08:29AM

leakyboots wrote: »

I'd take Keats on current form, playing with a swagger and kicking well off the tee. Bleyendaal is gone completely off the boil... even though his general play in the first couple of games was actually quite good (but nightmare off the tee whatever is going on). I think he'll come back stronger from it because he strikes me as a very classy operator so maybe a bit of a rest/time out will do him good. The competition at 10 is great, they'll all raise their game. JJ was superb when he came on the last day, there was a great buzz around the ground even when he ran on.

Murray - Keats - Rory Scannell - Farrell... back three I'd say Conway is the only one nailed on but you'd imagine it'll be Zebo and Sweetnam for the other two slots. Not sure Zebo is up to pace yet personally... I'd love to see Wootton get a cut from the off, he's earned it - he's done nothing wrong, there was one match where the ball didn't come his way much but that's not on him obviously

Wish they'd move this back to the horsey house, Aviva is a dump, never make the trip up for it

The Aviva is a lot of things, but it is not a dump. It's actually one of the better stadiums I've ever been in. People keep banging on about the stadium being bad. It isn't. It's been absolutely rocking at times in the past so that proves there is nothing inherently wrong with the stadium from an atmosphere perspective. It's simply a case of dampened down atmosphere due to a higher proportion of casual fans.

thomond2006 · 06-10-2017 09:32AM

molloyjh wrote: »

The Aviva is a lot of things, but it is not a dump. It's actually one of the better stadiums I've ever been in. People keep banging on about the stadium being bad. It isn't. It's been absolutely rocking at times in the past so that proves there is nothing inherently wrong with the stadium from an atmosphere perspective. It's simply a case of dampened down atmosphere due to a higher proportion of casual fans.

The biggest problem with this fixture is that it's been ****e most of the time since it moved to the Aviva.

06-10-2017 09:35AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

The biggest problem with this fixture is that it's been ****e most of the time since it moved to the Aviva.

Last season wasn't bad!

Former Former · 06-10-2017 09:38AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

The biggest problem with this fixture is that it's been ****e most of the time since it moved to the Aviva.

That's Munster dragging us down to their level of grim trench warfare.

molloyjh · 06-10-2017 10:07AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

The biggest problem with this fixture is that it's been ****e most of the time since it moved to the Aviva.

Yeah the rivalry has struggled a bit in recent times. Leinsters dominance in the early part of the decade and both sides relative poor form up to last year (and including last year in some ways I suppose) has meant the rugby hasn't been great either. Add in the increased attendance of the casual fan and the early season disruption due to player welfare and it's lost a lot of its edge.

It was at its best when one side or the other were winning trophies. That fuelled support and jealousy which the rivalry fed off. With both teams being off the pace in that regard the last few years it's gone a bit flat. Neither side look like champion sides so far this season either so I don't expect a huge amount this weekend. That said there's loads of competition for Ireland spots and both sides need a performance so that might help.

thomond2006 · 06-10-2017 10:08AM

Former Former wrote: »

That's Munster dragging us down to their level of grim trench warfare.

Damn straight.

arsebiscuits1 · 06-10-2017 10:08AM

molloyjh wrote: »

The Aviva is a lot of things, but it is not a dump. It's actually one of the better stadiums I've ever been in. People keep banging on about the stadium being bad. It isn't. It's been absolutely rocking at times in the past so that proves there is nothing inherently wrong with the stadium from an atmosphere perspective. It's simply a case of dampened down atmosphere due to a higher proportion of casual fans.

The Aviva gets a pretty bad rep for having a quiet and dreary atmosphere.

I don't agree.

I have had the pleasure of being at the England game in 2017 and the All Blacks game in 2016 and it was like nothing I have ever witnessed.

Yes there have been some stinkers but when that stadium comes alive, it is magical.

Good facilities, short bar waits, near town, literally on the Dart, can't beat it

06-10-2017 10:40AM

Atmosphere in a stadium is a function of what's going on out on the pitch.

A recent example is look at the difference in Croker between the Dubs/Tyrone game and Dubs/Mayo. The former, you could basically hear the players calling to each other. There was no tension at all. If you'd never been to a game in Croker you could certainly make the (pretty daft) claim that the stadium has no atmosphere. For the latter the atmosphere was absolutely incredible.

Lansdowne is a fine stadium. Maybe because it's in D4 certain people have a bit of a chip on their shoulder over it?

irishguy1983 · 06-10-2017 10:41AM

Why 2:00 folks?? Seems very early - any particular reason behind 2:00?

awec · 06-10-2017 10:45AM

irishguy1983 wrote: »

Why 2:00 folks?? Seems very early - any particular reason behind 2:00?

The people of D4 won't want Munster fans walking around their area in the evening.

errlloyd · 06-10-2017 10:46AM

Liam Lively Ultrasound wrote: »

Atmosphere in a stadium is a function of what's going on out on the pitch.

Ah it is and it isn't.

It is also very much a function of what crowd goes. For a test against the ABs or England tickets are basically only distributed through clubs and supporters clubs. It usually means they have more invested in the game. More appreciation for the tension, intensity and other non glamorous stuff.

We need the casual fans - unfortunately. Every year we hopefully convert a few more casual fans to the cause (although I am not sure how successful we are being of late). But this fixture would be better in the RDS.

irishfan9 · 06-10-2017 10:46AM

irishguy1983 wrote: »

Why 2:00 folks?? Seems very early - any particular reason behind 2:00?

allows for bigger attendance afaik.

molloyjh · 06-10-2017 10:49AM

irishguy1983 wrote: »

Why 2:00 folks?? Seems very early - any particular reason behind 2:00?

Sky are showing it. They also have the SA-NZ game later tomorrow and the rugby league final after that. The only other available time slot is 8pm, meaning a kick off at 8:30, which is too late.

errlloyd · 06-10-2017 10:49AM

irishguy1983 wrote: »

Why 2:00 folks?? Seems very early - any particular reason behind 2:00?

I think we're doing it to troll the stadium.

"So you know that soccer match you have on Friday evening yeah?"

"Yeah..."

"Well we need the pitch for Rugby early Saturday afternoon - so we need that grass grown by 6mm overnight"

"****."

"And we have a different beer supplier so you need to change all the kegs."

"all of them?"

"Every last one mate"

"And the posts?"

"Yeah, H Shaped pls"

"Guess you want it clean?"

"For the good people of D4, spotless. Scrub it nice and deep, get all that soccer out of it. Shame for you the fans aren't segregated. There could be Leinster fans anywhere so it needs to be Leinster clean"

06-10-2017 10:50AM

errlloyd wrote: »

Ah it is and it isn't.

It is also very much a function of what crowd goes. For a test against the ABs or England tickets are basically only distributed through clubs and supporters clubs. It usually means they have more invested in the game. More appreciation for the tension, intensity and other non glamorous stuff. .

Sure. Don't disagree.

errlloyd wrote: »

We need the casual fans - unfortunately.

I really hate this stuff. It's a professional sport and their money is every bit as good as yours.

errlloyd · 06-10-2017 10:59AM

Liam Lively Ultrasound wrote: »

I really hate this stuff. It's a professional sport and their money is every bit as good as yours.

I don't really think that is fair. I think fans who really appreciate something and have their experience slightly diminished by fans who don't really appreciate something have a fair complaint. Particularly when I am not saying "I wish they weren't there" I am saying "I wish they appreciated it like I do". It's the stuff like constantly leaving their seats and talking to their mates that bug me.

Same can be said for people who text in cinemas, or spend entire concerts recording the band. I'm not an art lover. I probably wouldn't push up to the front of Louvre to take a selfie with Mona Lisa. It is unfortunate that there are other fans that diminish my experience - that is a statement of fact. It would be optimum if there were other fans who contributed to my experience. It's not unfair to say that.

thomond2006 · 06-10-2017 11:02AM

The only annoying thing I find about 'casual fans' are those that are in and out to the bar and bathroom throughout the game. Why go?

I wish the Aviva would ban alcohol from the stands. People would arrive to their seats on time and stay there. Croke Park does it and it works. You can last 40 minutes without a drink.

Clegg · 06-10-2017 11:03AM

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

The Aviva gets a pretty bad rep for having a quiet and dreary atmosphere.

I don't agree.

I have had the pleasure of being at the England game in 2017 and the All Blacks game in 2016 and it was like nothing I have ever witnessed.

Yes there have been some stinkers but when that stadium comes alive, it is magical.

Good facilities, short bar waits, near town, literally on the Dart, can't beat it

I agree with you on the All Blacks game. I was in the lower west and the place was heaving. There was a brilliant atmosphere. Leinster/Toulouse in the Heineken semi final was also a wall of noise. If a game is good the fans will respond. Hard to generate an atmosphere for Leinster/Munster these days when you know they're minding themselves for European games.

06-10-2017 11:06AM

People getting up and down to go to the bar is a complete pain in the arse and I would prefer if they'd just close the bar while the game is on (edit - or as suggested just stop you bringing your pint back to the stands, but this doesn't stop the problem of people going out to the bar). But that sort of thing isn't limited to the 'casuals', all sorts of people are buying pints at a match.

There's no comparison between an art gallery or a cinema and a rugby match. Someone obviously is preventing your enjoyment of a film if they are making noise throughout the film, because they are preventing you from experiencing one of the crucial aspects of a film - the sound. You can't have an expectation the person next to you at a match is going to roar their head off for the whole thing to generate some atmosphere.

Anatom · 06-10-2017 11:07AM

That's fightin' talk that is...! no beer??!!

You're not completely wrong though. I don't understand anyone who'd pay for a ticket, or allow their friend / whomever to pay for their ticket, to attend something they don't want to be at. I understand the reluctant wife / girlfriend being "dragged" along the odd time, but they tend to have some interest, however low.

Sat beside an, I think Italian, couple at the Wasps game up in the gods in the Aviva last season and they spent the whole time talking to each other and only looking up when the stadium went quiet for a kick. I don't get it myself.

arsebiscuits1 · 06-10-2017 11:09AM

irishguy1983 wrote: »

Why 2:00 folks?? Seems very early - any particular reason behind 2:00?

Leinster marketing will say it allows for people with families and get home in time for dinner and people can get back to their respective counties for those outside of Dublin.

I can concede that. Evening games are great if your interest is beers followed by beers in town. But this time does work for a lot of people.

More likely what happened though is Sky asked and were accommodated accordingly

Larbre34 · 06-10-2017 11:09AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

The only annoying thing I find about 'casual fans' are those that are in and out to the bar and bathroom throughout the game. Why go?

I wish the Aviva would ban alcohol from the stands. People would arrive to their seats on time and stay there. Croke Park does it and it works. You can last 40 minutes without a drink.

Funnily enough they do for Soccer, though that could be a UEFA thing I dunno. I agree with you though, it should be banned from the stands in Rugby for the reasons you suggest, if people want to get tanked up and test the limits of their bladders they should do it in the back concourse and watch the game on the closed circuit - if I turn up and find my seat is near the end of a row I always know I can expect to be a jack-in-the-box for the whole game.

awec · 06-10-2017 11:13AM

Beer thing doesn't really bother me tbh. It's usually people going to the toilet and then getting beer on the way back.

I like my pint in my seat.

molloyjh · 06-10-2017 11:16AM

Liam Lively Ultrasound wrote: »

I really hate this stuff. It's a professional sport and their money is every bit as good as yours.

I don't think there was anything wrong with the comment in light of the discussion about atmosphere at the Aviva. A very real reason for poor atmosphere is the number of people with relatively little interest in the game. Sure there are other factors, like the quality of the game etc, but casual fans do detract from the atmosphere.

Nobody is saying they shouldn't be there, and I think errloyd even mentioned about casual fans becoming more than that over time which is hugely positive. I started out as a casual fan nearly 20 years ago. But to say that it is unfortunate that they impact the overall atmosphere isn't bad, which is all errloyd did in fairness.

errlloyd · 06-10-2017 11:19AM

Liam Lively Ultrasound wrote: »

There's no comparison between an art gallery or a cinema and a rugby match.

Yes there is. They are an experience where a visitors enjoyment of the experience is influenced by other visitors.

I don't really know what I said that is so controversial. You seem to just want to argue on an internet board.

Do I enjoy a game more if it has a better atmosphere - Yes.
Is the primary influencer of atmosphere other fans - Yes.

Which part do you hate? I am really struggling to get it. Maybe you're saying that atmosphere has no bearing on your enjoyment of a game - is that what you're getting at?

06-10-2017 11:25AM

errlloyd wrote: »

Yes there is. They are an experience where a visitors enjoyment of the experience is influenced by other visitors.

I don't agree with this, you're paying to watch a rugby match and as long as you get an unimpeded view then that's all you're entitled to.

I don't really know what I said that is so controversial. You seem to just want to argue on an internet board.

Do I enjoy a game more if it has a better atmosphere - Yes.
Is the primary influencer of atmosphere other fans - Yes.

Which part do you hate? I am really struggling to get it. Maybe you're saying that atmosphere has no bearing on your enjoyment of a game - is that what you're getting at?

It's people looking down their nose at 'casual' rugby fans. If that's not what you were intending then fair enough.

molloyjh · 06-10-2017 11:31AM

Liam Lively Ultrasound wrote: »

I don't agree with this, you're paying to watch a rugby match and as long as you get an unimpeded view then that's all you're entitled to.

I have to completely disagree with this. From a legal and commercial perspective it is technically true, but I'd also like to think people are entitled to be treated with some form of common decency by others. Individuals behaviours affect those around them and as a result people should consider those impacts and behave in a way that doesn't overly impact those around them negatively. I've had people get up to go to the bar and then stop directly in front of me because something is happening on the pitch that got their attention. They are blocking me and others behind me in that scenario. They aren't breaching any contract or terms and conditions on the sale of the ticket. They are being dicks though. And I think I'm entitled to be able to watch the game without that kind of behaviour.

I'm not saying all casual fans are like that at all. I know they aren't. But the general point stands. A stadium isn't a place where you can come and do whatever you like because you've bought a ticket. There's a social contract, for want of a better way of phrasing it, that we all should be buying into as well. Showing consideration for those around you should be the very least we expect of people. This idea that "I've bought a ticket, I can do what I like" is BS.

errlloyd · 06-10-2017 11:32AM

Liam Lively Ultrasound wrote: »

I don't agree with this, you're paying to watch a rugby match

We will have to respectfully agree to disagree on this. If seeing the game were the only value offering I would really struggle to justify paying for a worse view over watching on TV.

But I get where you're coming from about looking down the nose. Maybe the phrase 'casual fan' has developed a nasty connotation on here that I didn't intend to align myself with.

06-10-2017 11:34AM

molloyjh wrote: »

stuff about people going to the bar

.

Liam Lively Ultrasound wrote: »

People getting up and down to go to the bar is a complete pain in the arse and I would prefer if they'd just close the bar while the game is on (edit - or as suggested just stop you bringing your pint back to the stands, but this doesn't stop the problem of people going out to the bar). But that sort of thing isn't limited to the 'casuals', all sorts of people are buying pints at a match.

Leinster v Munster Build Up Thread

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