British TV viewers react with horror to portrayal of famine in ITV drama Victoria.

donegaLroad · 03-10-2017 10:57PM

Icemancometh wrote: »

That counts as an article for an online newspaper? Three short paragraphs and a bunch of tweets. Jaysus.

I am sure there are posters here from the North who may tell you that the famine was skimmed over, if barely covered by the UK schools history cirriculum. Maybe it has changed now but I have friends in their 40s who explained to me that Irish history was taught to them by their parents and via the library.

My relation's Grandaunt was able to give first hand accounts of the famine. She lived to her late 90's.. she was 9 or 10 during the famine. My relations who knew her are still alive today.

steddyeddy · 03-10-2017 11:01PM

razorblunt wrote: »

Be honest, did you just make this up?
I've lived here for 9 years now and I've not met one person who has come out with that gem.

Not that gem, but there's a complete lack of awareness about colonial history in the UK.

steddyeddy · 03-10-2017 11:15PM

LordSutch wrote: »

I get your drift Western, but that bit I corrected above ^ is a constant mistake many people make here, (confusing the UK with England) in the same way that English get confused or mistaken with our political identity.

For an anglophile you paint a dim picture of the English. Most know we're different political entities.

Your Face · 03-10-2017 11:17PM

I'm not surprised the British public don't know much about the horrors their empire inflicted on people around the globe.
The British tv documentaries about their own history are borderline jingoistic.

FrancieBrady · 03-10-2017 11:21PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The reality is that currently and throughout our history, a large percentage of people born on and living on the island of Ireland have a closer affinity to Britain than Ireland.

that is what I said.

steddyeddy · 03-10-2017 11:31PM

Floki wrote: »

Chill the beans.

I've never said that Catholics weren't killed.
Everyone knows what happened to them it's been taught in the schools.
I'm saying every action has a reaction.

But if you're going to teach history you should teach the full history warts and all.
Not some heroes of 98 ****e fighting for freedom when the first bloody thing that happened down here was a round up of any protestant men and boys and take them to the rebel camp in vinegar hill to be starved for days and then piked to death and old men going around with pikes after to make sure they're dead.
There's nothing patriotic or grandiose about that. That's sectarian ****e.

So off your high horse if you think you've the copyright of castigation.

Irish history is ugly but the victors write the history books.

The 1798 rebellion happened after the Popety laws were introduced. They reduced the rights of Catholics in relation to land, education and employment. The Protestant population was given a higher status than the native Irish and benefitted hugely from the sectarian laws.

Do you think that helped or hindered Catholic/Protestant relations?

donegaLroad · 03-10-2017 11:34PM

It was not the will of the British people during the famine, to impose such penal laws upon the Irish, likewise it was not the decission of the Irish people to allow German U-boats to harbour in our waters. It was the decission of the people who were in authority at the time (and I know the response will be 'well who voted in the people who made those decissions') that's politics.

Floki · 03-10-2017 11:45PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The 1798 rebellion happened after the Popety laws were introduced. They reduced the rights of Catholics in relation to land, education and employment. The Protestant population was given a higher status than the native Irish and benefitted hugely from the sectarian laws.

Do you think that helped or hindered Catholic/Protestant relations?

Ah there were dirt poor protestants too.
But I know what you're saying and largely agree.

There were German Palatines brought in here in Wexford too in the early 1700's and given farms to rent and I've no doubt Catholic tenants were shoved off those farms. A good few of the protestant surnames killed at the start of the rebellion would have been Palatine names and the church burnt at Old Ross was a Palatine church where the rector did the service in German.

Berserker · 03-10-2017 11:57PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The 1798 rebellion happened after the Popety laws were introduced. They reduced the rights of Catholics in relation to land, education and employment. The Protestant population was given a higher status than the native Irish and benefitted hugely from the sectarian laws.

Nope, disagree. Protestant dissenters, mostly Presbyterians, were the focal point of those laws just as much a Roman Catholics. There were some very rich Roman Catholics and Protestants in Ireland at that time but there were also some very poor Catholics and Protestants also.

Floki · 04-10-2017 12:00AM

Berserker wrote: »

Nope, disagree. Protestant dissenters, mostly Presbyterians, were the focal point of those laws just as much a Roman Catholics. There were some very rich Roman Catholics and Protestants in Ireland at that time but there were also some very poor Catholics and Protestants also.

This is getting complicated!

Zebra3 · 04-10-2017 12:04AM

The great journalist Robert Fisk made the point years ago that Irish history isn’t taught to British kids because it’s embarrassing. They prefer to give them stuff about the Spanish Armada and the nazis.

Committing genocide against your neighbors who you’ve portrayed as savages in your supremacist occupation is something to ignore. Likewise locking up natives in concentration camps in the 1940s.

04-10-2017 12:13AM

donegaLroad wrote: »

It was not the will of the British people during the famine, to impose such penal laws upon the Irish, likewise it was not the decission of the Irish people to allow German U-boats to harbour in our waters. It was the decission of the people who were in authority at the time (and I know the response will be 'well who voted in the people who made those decissions') that's politics.

But the Gov didn't allow U-boats to harbour in our waters

fryup · 04-10-2017 12:22AM

the potato blight and the resulting famine affected everyone.. catholic & protestant...it spread to the north it spread to Scotland....it wasn't just an irish catholic tragedy

Ipso · 04-10-2017 12:29AM

Floki wrote: »

This is getting complicated!

History is usually very straight forward.

fryup · 04-10-2017 12:44AM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

in ireland it is....irish good british bad

Zebra3 · 04-10-2017 02:14AM

fryup wrote: »

the potato blight and the resulting famine affected everyone.. catholic & protestant...it spread to the north it spread to Scotland....it wasn't just an irish catholic tragedy

There was plenty of food. The use of the word “famine” is incorrect in this situation.

The British as the occupying force had a moral obligation to ensure people could eat but instead let all the excess food to be exported.

Genocide.

whisky_galore · 04-10-2017 08:42AM

Zebra3 wrote: »

The British as the occupying force had a moral obligation to ensure people could eat but instead let all the excess food to be exported.

That's called a free market economy.

enda1 · 04-10-2017 08:46AM

whisky_galore wrote: »

That's called a free market economy.

Lol. That's some fucked up understanding of economics and imperialism. Notice the term "free market" includes the word "free"...

steddyeddy · 04-10-2017 08:55AM

whisky_galore wrote: »

That's called a free market economy.

As was slavery at the time. The economy of the south (North America) was built on it. The arguement for keeping it was that it was a "free market economy."

"Free market economy" is not a defense, nor does it excuse the actions of exporting food during a famine.

whisky_galore · 04-10-2017 08:59AM

enda1 wrote: »

Lol. That's some fucked up understanding of economics and imperialism. Notice the term "free market" includes the word "free"...

Private trade, farmers/growers and merchants...you think they were going to give all that away for free?

tomwaterford · 04-10-2017 09:00AM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Private trade, farmers/growers and merchants...you think they were going to give all that away for free?

Well they got the land by free,from forcing irish off it?

donegaLroad · 04-10-2017 09:16AM

riffmongous wrote: »

But the Gov didn't allow U-boats to harbour in our waters

Sorry, that was a stupid thing for me to suggest.. they were in Irish waters unofficially though

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-german-u-boats-refuelled-in-ireland-surely-not-2356105.html%3Famp

steddyeddy · 04-10-2017 09:23AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Well they got the land by free,from forcing irish off it?

Indeed. It's amazing how the free market can be used for a defense in these times considering there were government regulations on ho much land Catholics could own.

steddyeddy · 04-10-2017 09:31AM

Berserker wrote: »

Protestant dissenters, mostly Presbyterians, were the focal point of those laws just as much a Roman Catholics.

Hey Beserker, I have a full reply written out, but first I'll give you a chance to revise your post. You think the Popery laws had equal focus on a Reformed tradition within Protestantism? Are you not confusing the Popery law with the penal laws?

There were some very rich Roman Catholics and Protestants in Ireland at that time but there were also some very poor Catholics and Protestants also.

Some were very rich and some were very poor? Is that a detailed report of the economic realities of Ireland 150 years ago? What was the land distribution like before and after the Popery laws?

Fratton Fred · 04-10-2017 09:40AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The 1798 rebellion happened after the Popety laws were introduced. They reduced the rights of Catholics in relation to land, education and employment. The Protestant population was given a higher status than the native Irish and benefitted hugely from the sectarian laws.

Do you think that helped or hindered Catholic/Protestant relations?

Floki wrote: »

Ah there were dirt poor protestants too.
But I know what you're saying and largely agree.

There were German Palatines brought in here in Wexford too in the early 1700's and given farms to rent and I've no doubt Catholic tenants were shoved off those farms. A good few of the protestant surnames killed at the start of the rebellion would have been Palatine names and the church burnt at Old Ross was a Palatine church where the rector did the service in German.

its interesting that the British get accused of not knowing their own history, yet in Ireland, the reasons why the Palatines and Huguenots ended up in Ireland is unknown. As is the simple fact that "Dissenters" were just as much victims of the penal laws as Catholics were, which is why most of the 1798 leaders were protestants.

I presume the Catholic education system doesn't teach about persecution and genocide of protestants.

server down · 04-10-2017 09:43AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Indeed. It's amazing how the free market can be used for a defense in these times considering there were government regulations on ho much land Catholics could own.

Not much of a defence of capitalism or the free market anyway (even if it misses the feudalist nature of early 19C Ireland).

Capitalism causes famines.

Used to be capitalism’s enemies who claimed that.

server down · 04-10-2017 09:49AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

its interesting that the British get accused of not knowing their own history, yet in Ireland, the reasons why the Palatines and Huguenots ended up in Ireland is unknown. As is the simple fact that "Dissenters" were just as much victims of the penal laws as Catholics were, which is why most of the 1798 leaders were protestants.

I presume the Catholic education system doesn't teach about persecution and genocide of protestants.

No, it does. In context. Irish education is pretty much revisionist anyway.

To concentrate on the anti Protestant atrocities rather than the much greater atrocities by the authorities in 1798 is bad history. As I said it’s like concentrating on Native American uprisings rather than white supremacy

Also Irish people are taught that 1798 was Presbyterian and Catholic.

keano_afc · 04-10-2017 10:05AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you have a bit more basic knowledge of their history?

Yes, I know quite a bit about their history.

Fratton Fred · 04-10-2017 10:10AM

server down wrote: »

No, it does. In context. Irish education is pretty much revisionist anyway.

To concentrate on the anti Protestant atrocities rather than the much greater atrocities by the authorities in 1798 is bad history. As I said it’s like concentrating on Native American uprisings rather than white supremacy

Also Irish people are taught that 1798 was Presbyterian and Catholic.

Oh, I agree. There is no moral highground in the 1798 rebellion and the atrocities carried out by both sides have to be taken in context.

I guess what I am getting at, is that you have posters stating things like "The Protestant population was given a higher status than the native Irish". which just seems to highlight that there is a real belief in this country that to be Irish meant to be Catholic and all Catholics were poor and persecuted by Protestants, who were all wealthy.

topper75 · 04-10-2017 10:14AM

Sonics2k wrote: »

Many Irish people don't even know about the crimes committed by the Irish people in America in the 1800's.

Quite right.

That big lump under the rug there is composed of drunkenness, violence, theft, prostitution, racism, racketeering, bank robbery, rioting, and sundry slaughter of indigenous tribes.

And it will never end up on any Irish school curriculum alongside JFK et al.

I travelled into deepest darkest America myself (where not even the most intrepid J1 student goes) places such as Kentucky, Missouri, Georgia, Tennessee. The frank locals there told me that back in the 19th century the name of the Irish was mud. Were not welcome in the towns by Germans/English etc. Not the saints and scholars of the textbooks.

British TV viewers react with horror to portrayal of famine in ITV drama Victoria.

Comments