British TV viewers react with horror to portrayal of famine in ITV drama Victoria.

03-10-2017 05:24PM

razorblunt wrote: »

Be honest, did you just make this up?
I've lived here for 9 years now and I've not met one person who has come out with that gem.

It comes up online whenever an English article is written about WW2 and Ireland, well before Archer made a joke of it. Refuelling subs and whatnot

03-10-2017 05:31PM

Hector Savage wrote: »

I was talking to an English guy who's son goes to school with my son , at the UK election last June - he asked me had I voted yet - I told him I was Irish ... like from the south originally - still looked at me as if to say ... "Yeah so have you voted yet .... "

I explained to him briefly that the UK is England,Scot,Wales + N. Ireland ... he said "Ah yes of course ... " But I could tell he was acting it , he didn't really know and was saving himself embarrassment .. and this guy travels a lot with his work and is a smart guy.

I think many of us who have lived in England/ Wales (the Scots and the Northerners tend to know their history) or have English/ Welsh friends, have experienced the same.

I've lost count the number of times I've had exchanges like this (I'm in asterisks)

*Actually I'm from Ireland*
Well it's all the same really isn't it
*Well not really! We're a different country*
OK yeah but not like other countries are.

I actually don't see this as a problem here. My parents were of a generation where Irish people would hide their identity/ accent in the U.K., and that was even before the Troubles.

Take it as a mark of a unique and close friendship, there's no arrogance in it; they (at least, the reasonable grownups) see us as their equals and their friends.

Grayson · 03-10-2017 05:39PM

Hector Savage wrote: »

I was talking to an English guy who's son goes to school with my son , at the UK election last June - he asked me had I voted yet - I told him I was Irish ... like from the south originally - still looked at me as if to say ... "Yeah so have you voted yet .... "

I explained to him briefly that the UK is England,Scot,Wales + N. Ireland ... he said "Ah yes of course ... " But I could tell he was acting it , he didn't really know and was saving himself embarrassment .. and this guy travels a lot with his work and is a smart guy.

If you were in the UK, Irish ppl can vote there.

selwyn froggitt · 03-10-2017 05:40PM

Hector Savage wrote: »

I was talking to an English guy who's son goes to school with my son , at the UK election last June - he asked me had I voted yet - I told him I was Irish ... like from the south originally - still looked at me as if to say ... "Yeah so have you voted yet .... "

I explained to him briefly that the UK is England,Scot,Wales + N. Ireland ... he said "Ah yes of course ... " But I could tell he was acting it , he didn't really know and was saving himself embarrassment .. and this guy travels a lot with his work and is a smart guy.

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/who-is-eligible-to-vote-at-a-uk-general-election

The Irish can vote in a British general election!

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 03-10-2017 06:06PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

We learn a lot about British history in schools because our history was heavily dependant on Britain, both as a colonist, and as a European power. But their history wasn't even nearly as reliant on Ireland, apart from the odd occasion when there was a hung parliament.

But they don't learn about that either. Almost nobody in Britain is aware of the Home Rule Crisis and how it brought the UK to the brink of civil war.

dinorebel · 03-10-2017 06:09PM

CrabRevolution wrote: »

While it's almost certainly a minority, the number of British people who honestly seem to think Ireland fought alongside the Nazis in WW2 makes me worry about how history is taught in the UK.

I'm English and have never met or heard of anyone believing that.

A Little Pony · 03-10-2017 06:10PM

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

We learn a lot about British history in schools because our history was heavily dependant on Britain, both as a colonist, and as a European power. But their history wasn't even nearly as reliant on Ireland, apart from the odd occasion when there was a hung parliament.

But they don't learn about that either. Almost nobody in Britain is aware of the Home Rule Crisis and how it brought the UK to the brink of civil war.

How many of them know anything about history in general? Not much.

ilovesmybrick · 03-10-2017 06:18PM

dinorebel wrote: »

I'm English and have never met or heard of anyone believing that.

I think it's probably a misconception from what the user came across in school history. There was an issue in the early part of the Second World War where Irish soldiers wore "coal scuttle" style helmets very similar to the Wehrmacht that have a lip covering the back of the neck.It was replaced around 1940, but by that point the similarities had already been used for anti-Irish neutrality propaganda to suggest Ireland was really supporting Germany in the war. The general gripe is the simple fact we were neutral, which is far more complex.

FrancieBrady · 03-10-2017 06:26PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I am not surprised that many British viewers were unaware of the history of the Irish famine.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/entertainment/british-tv-viewers-share-shock-at-portrayal-of-irish-famine-in-victoria-808238.html

It is hardly surprising that any nation's education system glosses over the worst excesses of their past. Whether that be the US slaughter of the native Americans, the treatment of the Aborigines in Australia or the Irish during the famine.
There are many aspects of our own history that are conveniently forgotten in the interests of preserving our notion of ourselves.

What's 'our notion of ourselves'?

I find most Irish people are fairly self deprecating in general. And we have a pretty good understanding of our history.

Germany doesn't sugar tooth it's excesses during ww2 for it's education system.
But Britain does. There is a great debate emerging in Britain about taking responsibility for it's colonial past.
This being a part of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7CW7S0zxv4

That will filter into the education system over time and into the general consciousness. Very timely for them as the last vestiges of Empire fade with Brexit.

Fratton Fred · 03-10-2017 06:33PM

Hector Savage wrote: »

I was talking to an English guy who's son goes to school with my son , at the UK election last June - he asked me had I voted yet - I told him I was Irish ... like from the south originally - still looked at me as if to say ... "Yeah so have you voted yet .... "

I explained to him briefly that the UK is England,Scot,Wales + N. Ireland ... he said "Ah yes of course ... " But I could tell he was acting it , he didn't really know and was saving himself embarrassment .. and this guy travels a lot with his work and is a smart guy.

If you live in the uk, you could have voted.

Donal55 · 03-10-2017 06:38PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Raquel from Corrie was my first crush

This is her now...

I still would.

And one of them is dead!

Fratton Fred · 03-10-2017 06:40PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Take it as a mark of a unique and close friendship, there's no arrogance in it; they (at least, the reasonable grownups) see us as their equals and their friends.

I think that's the thing, in the UK, the Irish aren't seen as "Foreign" in the same way a German or a Spaniard would be.

I think it was on the military board that someone, upon joining the British army, took offence at being called a paddy bastard, until he realised that the guy from Newcastle was a Geordie bastard, the Londoner a cockney bastard and the Welsh guy a taffy bastard.

03-10-2017 06:46PM

Donal55 wrote: »

And one of them is dead!

They're both very much alive, in real life as well as my dreams Donal.

'Tis Betty is dead, and Rita on the way out. Never fancied either of them.

SafeSurfer · 03-10-2017 06:52PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I am not surprised that many British viewers were unaware of the history of the Irish famine.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/entertainment/british-tv-viewers-share-shock-at-portrayal-of-irish-famine-in-victoria-808238.html

It is hardly surprising that any nation's education system glosses over the worst excesses of their past. Whether that be the US slaughter of the native Americans, the treatment of the Aborigines in Australia or the Irish during the famine.
There are many aspects of our own history that are conveniently forgotten in the interests of preserving our notion of ourselves.

What's 'our notion of ourselves'?

I find most Irish people are fairly self deprecating in general. And we have a pretty good understanding of our history.

Germany doesn't sugar tooth it's excesses during ww2 for it's education system.
But Britain does. There is a great debate emerging in Britain about taking responsibility for it's colonial past.
This being a part of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7CW7S0zxv4

That will filter into the education system over time and into the general consciousness. Very timely for them as the last vestiges of Empire fade with Brexit.

Our notion of ourselves is predicated by a selective memory.
When I was in school we didn't learn anything about the large numbers of Irish men fighting in the British army or their integral part in maintaining the empire.
There was no mention of the sectarian killings of protestants during the war of independence or the pogrom of the Jews in Limerick. Or how the Irish republic became a narrow minded Gaelic theocracy.

Our notion of ourselves is of a plucky people oppressed for 700 years. Romantic notions of a glorious cultural past culminating in a blood sacrifice uprising with noble ideals from which a fair, just society was created. A nation of people often beaten but never beat. Even our defeats are victories and we are loved all over the world.

FrancieBrady · 03-10-2017 07:00PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Our notion of ourselves is predicated by a selective memory.
When I was in school we didn't learn anything about the large numbers of Irish men fighting in the British army or their integral part in maintaining the empire.
There was no mention of the sectarian killings of protestants during the war of independence or the pogrom of the Jews in Limerick. Or how the Irish republic became a narrow minded Gaelic theocracy.

Our notion of ourselves is of a plucky people oppressed for 700 years. Romantic notions of a glorious cultural past culminating in a blood sacrifice uprising with noble ideals from which a fair, just society was created. A nation of people often beaten but never beat. Even our defeats are victories and we are loved all over the world.

You are going to pluck fairly isolated incidents now. OK. Carry on.

I don't know what era you went to school but when I went (70's early 80's) the system bent over backwards not to take a side. And my history book definitely mentioned sectarian killings on all sides.
I agree on the first World war stuff but that has been amply addressed now.

And I happen to think we are a 'plucky, not easily repressed people' in general who were repressed for 800 years. That is why we eventually revolted and changed that in part of the island. To me that is a fact.

But I think our main trait is to be self deprecating and self aware. As you have just been. I never said we were perfect, which you seem to expect.

WesternZulu · 03-10-2017 07:04PM

Hector Savage wrote:

I explained to him briefly that the UK is England,Scot,Wales + N. Ireland ... he said "Ah yes of course ... " But I could tell he was acting it , he didn't really know and was saving himself embarrassment .. and this guy travels a lot with his work and is a smart guy.

I lived with an English lad in Wales who had studies Geography during his undergraduate days and been to Ireland. He was adamant that Ireland was part of the UK when it came up in conversation.

He even went to get his passport to show me it said 'Great Britain and Ireland' when I had mentioned we had our own passport.

More people than you'd think in the UK think we're part of the union and have no knowledge at all about Northern Ireland, nevermind the republic.

I think they're a more insular nation than us and I suppose that naturally comes from being traditionally a super power.

Floki · 03-10-2017 07:13PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Our notion of ourselves is predicated by a selective memory.
When I was in school we didn't learn anything about the large numbers of Irish men fighting in the British army or their integral part in maintaining the empire.
There was no mention of the sectarian killings of protestants during the war of independence or the pogrom of the Jews in Limerick. Or how the Irish republic became a narrow minded Gaelic theocracy.

Our notion of ourselves is of a plucky people oppressed for 700 years. Romantic notions of a glorious cultural past culminating in a blood sacrifice uprising with noble ideals from which a fair, just society was created. A nation of people often beaten but never beat. Even our defeats are victories and we are loved all over the world.

Don't forget the 1798 rebellion was mostly fought along sectarian lines too with just a few exceptions. There were a large number of Protestant farming and tradesmen taken from their homes and killed on Vinegar hill in Wexford when rebellion broke out and then you had the Scullabogue massacre and burning as well. This was just fifty years before the famine. I'm sure that would have influenced any decisions from the British establishment.

server down · 03-10-2017 07:13PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Our notion of ourselves is predicated by a selective memory.
When I was in school we didn't learn anything about the large numbers of Irish men fighting in the British army or their integral part in maintaining the empire.
There was no mention of the sectarian killings of protestants during the war of independence or the pogrom of the Jews in Limerick. Or how the Irish republic became a narrow minded Gaelic theocracy.

Our notion of ourselves is of a plucky people oppressed for 700 years. Romantic notions of a glorious cultural past culminating in a blood sacrifice uprising with noble ideals from which a fair, just society was created. A nation of people often beaten but never beat. Even our defeats are victories and we are loved all over the world.

All parts of the empire contributed foot soldiers to the empire. In Ireland the officer class was largely Anglo Irish.

And there was no pogrom. It was a boycott. Ireland elected Jewish mayors in Dublin and cork before the US had one.

A Little Pony · 03-10-2017 07:14PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I am not surprised that many British viewers were unaware of the history of the Irish famine.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/entertainment/british-tv-viewers-share-shock-at-portrayal-of-irish-famine-in-victoria-808238.html

It is hardly surprising that any nation's education system glosses over the worst excesses of their past. Whether that be the US slaughter of the native Americans, the treatment of the Aborigines in Australia or the Irish during the famine.
There are many aspects of our own history that are conveniently forgotten in the interests of preserving our notion of ourselves.

What's 'our notion of ourselves'?

I find most Irish people are fairly self deprecating in general. And we have a pretty good understanding of our history.

Germany doesn't sugar tooth it's excesses during ww2 for it's education system.
But Britain does. There is a great debate emerging in Britain about taking responsibility for it's colonial past.
This being a part of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7CW7S0zxv4

That will filter into the education system over time and into the general consciousness. Very timely for them as the last vestiges of Empire fade with Brexit.

Our notion of ourselves is predicated by a selective memory.
When I was in school we didn't learn anything about the large numbers of Irish men fighting in the British army or their integral part in maintaining the empire.
There was no mention of the sectarian killings of protestants during the war of independence or the pogrom of the Jews in Limerick. Or how the Irish republic became a narrow minded Gaelic theocracy.

Our notion of ourselves is of a plucky people oppressed for 700 years. Romantic notions of a glorious cultural past culminating in a blood sacrifice uprising with noble ideals from which a fair, just society was created. A nation of people often beaten but never beat. Even our defeats are victories and we are loved all over the world.

That sums up the Irish Republic perfectly.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I am not surprised that many British viewers were unaware of the history of the Irish famine.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/entertainment/british-tv-viewers-share-shock-at-portrayal-of-irish-famine-in-victoria-808238.html

It is hardly surprising that any nation's education system glosses over the worst excesses of their past. Whether that be the US slaughter of the native Americans, the treatment of the Aborigines in Australia or the Irish during the famine.
There are many aspects of our own history that are conveniently forgotten in the interests of preserving our notion of ourselves.

What's 'our notion of ourselves'?

I find most Irish people are fairly self deprecating in general. And we have a pretty good understanding of our history.

Germany doesn't sugar tooth it's excesses during ww2 for it's education system.
But Britain does. There is a great debate emerging in Britain about taking responsibility for it's colonial past.
This being a part of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7CW7S0zxv4

That will filter into the education system over time and into the general consciousness. Very timely for them as the last vestiges of Empire fade with Brexit.

What is to take responsibility for it? The British Empire did what many other Empires did around the time. I don't know how far back people would want to go with this.

server down · 03-10-2017 07:17PM

Floki wrote: »

Don't forget the 1798 rebellion was mostly fought along sectarian lines too with just a few exceptions. There were a large number of Protestant farming and tradesmen taken from their homes and killed on Vinegar hill in Wexford when rebellion broke out and then you had the Scullabogue massacre and burning as well. This was just fifty years before the famine. I'm sure that would have influenced any decisions from the British establishment.

There were Native American atrocities against settlers too. You could concentrate on that I suppose but it would miss the larger picture.

server down · 03-10-2017 07:19PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

That sums up the Irish Republic perfectly.

What is to take responsibility for it? The British Empire did what many other Empires did around the time. I don't know how far back people would want to go with this.

Apparently we can definitely go back far enough to criticise the Irish republic as a theocracy or limerick pogroms. Just no further.

WesternZulu · 03-10-2017 07:21PM

SafeSurfer wrote:

Our notion of ourselves is predicated by a selective memory. When I was in school we didn't learn anything about the large numbers of Irish men fighting in the British army or their integral part in maintaining the empire. There was no mention of the sectarian killings of protestants during the war of independence or the pogrom of the Jews in Limerick. Or how the Irish republic became a narrow minded Gaelic theocracy.

I remember learning about how many Irish fought for the empire but often it was more for a wage than any sort of allegiance to the crown, much in the same way many Indian's also joined ranks.
In terms of WW1 many joined because of the promise of Home Rule.

If we're selective about our history then we're in good company. You won't get much British acknowledgement outside the more liberal press of concentration camps in the 20th century, the Indian famine, and the inappropriate and negligent divisions of numerous international maps which led to so many problems down the line.

03-10-2017 07:21PM

razorblunt wrote: »

Be honest, did you just make this up?
I've lived here for 9 years now and I've not met one person who has come out with that gem.

I suspect it's a fib.

I'm British, my mothers side is Irish. I've never met or heard of a single person who thought that. Not one. Ever.

FrancieBrady · 03-10-2017 07:26PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

That sums up the Irish Republic perfectly.

What is to take responsibility for it? The British Empire did what many other Empires did around the time. I don't know how far back people would want to go with this.

Acknowledgement of what was done would be a start. If reparations will help to fix what was done, then pay those reparations.

When we as a nation found out what the church had done here, we sided with the victims in seeking redress and acknowledgment. The church, as a result is a shadow of it's former self as is it's influence.

There is really no excuse for the British people not facing up to the damage their colonial past did.

buried · 03-10-2017 07:28PM

I'd wager a good section of these ITV viewers reacted with horror because they thought they were about to watch some $hite about Victoria Beckham

LordSutch · 03-10-2017 07:36PM

WesternZulu wrote: »

I lived with an English lad in Wales who had studies Geography during his undergraduate days and been to Ireland. He was adamant that Ireland was part of the UK when it came up in conversation.

He even went to get his passport to show me it said 'Great Britain and Ireland' when I had mentioned we had our own passport.

More people than you'd think in the UK think we're part of the union and have no knowledge at all about Northern Ireland, nevermind the republic.

I think they're a more insular nation than us and I suppose that naturally comes from being traditionally a super power.

Having lived & worked in England I can explain that any confusion is usually down to the fact that geography is confused with politics.

We (Britain/Ireland/IOM etc) are all part of this one group of islands, removed as we are from mainland Europe - Irish, English, Scottish Welsh, Manx, Cornish ... many people in England presume we're all connected as an island group, which we are!

Its just that many English people are ignorant of the political schism that has existed between the two states since 1922/1948.

runnerholic · 03-10-2017 07:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why is it incredible? I don't know a lot about English history. Nor American. Or Spanish. Or German. Wasn't taught to me in school.

Really? I learnt about all the above in school.
I learnt about William the conquerer and the battle of hastings, the war of the roses, The English civil war and the ascent of Cromwell, the growth of empire etc.
Learnt about the American war of Independence starting with the Boston Tea party and the American civil war. The US entrance into the world wars.
Learnt about the Muslim incursion into Spain and the Spanish civil war.
Learnt about the unification of Germany under Bismark, The 1st world war, the Wiemar Republic and the Second world war.
+ Napolean, the Habsburgs and the Austria-Hungarian empire, the russian revolution and the growth of communism.
All of this and more was taught to me in school in Ireland.
A very comprehensive history corriculum.
In contrast, the level of knowledge the British in general have of their closest neighbour and former colony is abysmal.

WesternZulu · 03-10-2017 07:43PM

LordSutch wrote:

Having lived & worked in England I can explain that any confusion is usually down to the fact that geography is confused with politics.

We (Britain/Ireland/IOM etc) are all part of this one group of islands, removed as we are from mainland Europe - Irish, English, Scottish Welsh, Manx, Cornish ... many people in England presume we're all connected as an island group, which we are!

Perhaps, but even the slightest bit of curiosity should lead to questions like 'Why is Ireland split in two" which some people in the UK never seem to come to and leads to assumptions that we're all in the UK.

I was never annoyed when I had to correct people about Ireland not being in the UK when I was over there...more amazed that people never joined the dots so to speak.

LordSutch · 03-10-2017 07:48PM

WesternZulu wrote: »

Perhaps, but even the slightest bit of curiosity should lead to questions like 'Why is Ireland split in two" which some people in the UK England never seem to come to and leads to assumptions that we're all in the UK.

I get your drift Western, but that bit I corrected above ^ is a constant mistake many people make here, (confusing the UK with England) in the same way that English get confused or mistaken with our political identity.

03-10-2017 07:51PM

LordSutch wrote: »

Its just that many English people are ignorant of the political schism that has existed between the two states since 1922/1948.

It isn't just the English, in fairness.

I can guarantee you, more than a few readers in this thread are looking at 1948 and thinking "what happened between us in 1948"?

Similarly, say 'The Battle of Kinsale', 'the 1918 General Election', or 'The First Constitution of Ireland' to most Irish people, and whilst they might have heard of all of these terms, they probably can't utter three sentences on any of them.

Despite the fact that most of us have had at least 8 years' worth of education in Irish History.

It's a bit like the Irish language. Many claim to support it, but don't engage in it either academically or practically.

British TV viewers react with horror to portrayal of famine in ITV drama Victoria.

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