Classroom corporal punishment

snowflaker · 01-10-2017 10:25PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

http://www.thejournal.ie/ban-on-slapping-ireland-2496262-Dec2015/

Parents can no longer legally hit their children so I find it strange that we are discussing a teacher’s right to hit pupils

One eyed Jack · 01-10-2017 10:27PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I don't think we can agree on this. It is wrong for a child to be hit by a teacher. Incidentally, it is illegal for any adult to hit a child.

This has come up every time this issue is discussed in AH, and again it's far more nuanced than that. There has consistently been efforts made in recent years to make it illegal for parents to smack their children. Those efforts haven't succeeded.

snowflaker · 01-10-2017 10:29PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This has come up every time this issue is discussed in AH, and again it's far more nuanced than that. There has consistently been efforts made in recent years to make it illegal for parents to smack their children. Those efforts haven't succeeded.

But it is illegal. - they’re is no exception for parents anymore

Professor Moriarty · 01-10-2017 10:30PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

Tigger wrote: »

its wierd that it wasn't for so long

Different times. It was the EU that forced Ireland's hand (so to speak) in implementing the ban on parents slapping their children.

Tigger · 01-10-2017 10:30PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

snowflaker wrote: »

But it is illegal. - they’re is no exception for parents anymore

has been for nearly 3 years

marienbad · 01-10-2017 10:30PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This has come up every time this issue is discussed in AH, and again it's far more nuanced than that. There has consistently been efforts made in recent years to make it illegal for parents to smack their children. Those efforts haven't succeeded.

I think it is illegal http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/parents-who-slap-children-can-be-charged-370951.html

Professor Moriarty · 01-10-2017 10:31PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This has come up every time this issue is discussed in AH, and again it's far more nuanced than that. There has consistently been efforts made in recent years to make it illegal for parents to smack their children. Those efforts haven't succeeded.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ban-on-smacking-children-came-into-force-at-midnight-1.2461969%3Fmode=amp

One eyed Jack · 01-10-2017 10:32PM

snowflaker wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/ban-on-slapping-ireland-2496262-Dec2015/

Parents can no longer legally hit their children so I find it strange that we are discussing a teacher’s right to hit pupils

Your link doesn't say what you think it does. Reasonable chastisement cannot be used as a defence in cases where a parent may face charges of child neglect or cruelty to a child. It has never made smacking illegal and no new offence was created.

snowflaker · 01-10-2017 10:35PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Your link doesn't say what you think it does. Reasonable chastisement cannot be used as a defence in cases where a parent may face charges of child neglect or cruelty to a child. It has never made smacking illegal and no new offence was created.

However, from today this legal defence has been removed from the statute meaning any such physical attack on a child will now be punishable under the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997 in the same way as any assault on an adult, or the Cruelty Against Children Act 2001.

The defence of reasonable chastisement is gone. The Crime remains.

Rubberchikken · 01-10-2017 10:37PM

Against corporal punishment but can see the benefits of conscription.

Professor Moriarty · 01-10-2017 10:42PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Your link doesn't say what you think it does. Reasonable chastisement cannot be used as a defence in cases where a parent may face charges of child neglect or cruelty to a child. It has never made smacking illegal and no new offence was created.

That's a Jesuitical interpretation. The Citizen's Information Service states that the removal of the reasonable chastisement clause means that effectively there is a ban on all corportal punishment in place. In other words, hitting a child is legally indefensible.

Irish Guitarist · 01-10-2017 10:48PM

I started school in 1980 which was just around the time corporal punishment was abolished. The only time a teacher ever hit me was in fifth class when he caught me writing on the desk. He laid into my knuckles with a ruler until he drew blood. I got the impression he hadn't hit a child in a few years and had been missing it.

_Dara_ · 01-10-2017 10:54PM

Lia_lia wrote: »

A certain Kerry footballer threw a duster at a student in my brother's school. That was funny.

It's OK, Lia Lia, I understand your discretion but that's been reported on in the media, we know it's Galvin.

Once, my fourth class teacher was so frustrated with a student that he flung a chair down the classroom so hard that it hit the back wall.

But you know what? He was a great teacher. It was a moment of pure frustration and very out of character.

One eyed Jack · 01-10-2017 10:59PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

That's a Jesuitical interpretation. The Citizen's Information Service states that the removal of the reasonable chastisement clause means that effectively there is a ban on all corportal punishment in place. In other words, hitting a child is legally indefensible.

It's really not a jesuitical interpretation at all. It's an important one because the State doesn't criminalise parents solely for smacking their children. It requires a bit more than just smacking their child before the State overrides the right to privacy of the family and the Irish Constitutional position of the family as the natural and primary carers of children. The Children's Referendum gave the State the right to remove children from the family home if it was determined that their welfare was at risk, but we have been praised internationally for actually preferring to keep families together, and that's why you won't see parents criminalised solely for smacking their children, and why it takes quite a lot more evidence before the State or agents of the State will move to criminalise a parent for smacking their children.

r93kaey5p2izun · 01-10-2017 10:59PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

I was slapped and hit with rulers in primary school in the late 80s and very early 90s by nuns who seemed to really despise me. I think corporal punishment is generally ineffective and totally unnecessary and the refuge of people either too lazy to use alternatives or, more commonly, unable to control themselves.

snowflaker · 01-10-2017 11:02PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's really not a jesuitical interpretation at all. It's an important one because the State doesn't criminalise parents solely for smacking their children. It requires a bit more than just smacking their child before the State overrides the right to privacy of the family and the Irish Constitutional position of the family as the natural and primary carers of children. The Children's Referendum gave the State the right to remove children from the family home if it was determined that their welfare was at risk, but we have been praised internationally for our reluctance to actually prefer to keep families together, and that's why you won't see parents criminalised solely for smacking their children, and why it takes quite a lot more evidence before the State or agents of the State will move to criminalise a parent for smacking their children.

Praised internationally by whom???

Not acting on a law, doesn’t not mean something is NOT illegal.

The ban on Homosexuality only ended in 1993, but very few charges were brought in the previous 30 years

Professor Moriarty · 01-10-2017 11:09PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's really not a jesuitical interpretation at all. It's an important one because the State doesn't criminalise parents solely for smacking their children. It requires a bit more than just smacking their child before the State overrides the right to privacy of the family and the Irish Constitutional position of the family as the natural and primary carers of children. The Children's Referendum gave the State the right to remove children from the family home if it was determined that their welfare was at risk, but we have been praised internationally for actually preferring to keep families together, and that's why you won't see parents criminalised solely for smacking their children, and why it takes quite a lot more evidence before the State or agents of the State will move to criminalise a parent for smacking their children.

That's a fair point but official advice is that there is a ban on smacking children. Again, we are back to 'reasonable force'. Which seems to be a neanderthal discussion in the 21st century in the context of a child being hit. I can knock a child out with a 'smack' of my hand.

One eyed Jack · 01-10-2017 11:25PM

snowflaker wrote: »

Praised internationally by whom???

By international experts in social care and the welfare of children.

Not acting on a law, doesn’t not mean something is NOT illegal.

The ban on Homosexuality only ended in 1993, but very few charges were brought in the previous 30 years

Again - there is no law against smacking children.

There are cases brought against parents for child neglect, and the removal of the defence of reasonable chastisement simply means that parents cannot use it in their defence if charges are brought against them. It doesn't effectively mean anything else other than that, no matter how many articles you'll read in a newspaper.

01-10-2017 11:28PM

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Unfortunately there's no evidence to show it was useful in beating bad grammar out of the little bastards.

snowflaker · 01-10-2017 11:29PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

One eyed Jack wrote: »

By international experts in social care and the welfare of children.

Again - there is no law against smacking children.

There are cases brought against parents for child neglect, and the removal of the defence of reasonable chastisement simply means that parents cannot use it in their defence if charges are brought against them. It doesn't effectively mean anything else other than that, no matter how many articles you'll read in a newspaper.

I cited the applicable laws.

Could you give the names of these groups that support our position?

01-10-2017 11:31PM

Oh, how we should all aspire to have the glory days back again. Fortunately, it wasn't the children of the local big farmer or doctor who would be treated like this - just those poor kids without any connections:

Professor Moriarty · 01-10-2017 11:32PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

One eyed Jack wrote: »

By international experts in social care and the welfare of children.

Again - there is no law against smacking children.

There are cases brought against parents for child neglect, and the removal of the defence of reasonable chastisement simply means that parents cannot use it in their defence if charges are brought against them. It doesn't effectively mean anything else other than that, no matter how many articles you'll read in a newspaper.

This is official government guidance:

The Children First Act 2015 provides for a number of key child protection measures. Changes aimed at banning corporal punishment or use of force against children came into effect on 11 December 2015. Since that date, a person who physically punishes a child can no longer rely on the defence of “reasonable chastisement” in the courts.

Before this change, parents or others acting in loco parentis could use physical force to punish their children, even though a law allowing parents to use force against their children was repealed in 2001. They could do this by relying on the common law defence of “reasonable chastisement”. This meant that a person who hit or smacked a child could argue that they did so to discipline the child. This was a defence to what would otherwise be an assault on the child. This defence can no longer be used in the courts.

No new offence has been created and there are no laws that directly ban the smacking of children. However the withdrawal of the “reasonable chastisement” defence means that an effective ban is in place.

Looks illegal to me.

LordSutch · 01-10-2017 11:38PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

I'm only 26 so I've never been on the receiving end of corporal punishment. I did have a teacher in fifth and sixth class (between 2001 and 2003) who would manhandle kids and push them against the board, he'd overturn tables when he lost his temper or rip up copies or throw chairs. One time he threw a bunch of copies in the air and a fluorescent light came down and smashed into smithereens on the floor. Apart from that, no teacher ever laid a finger on us.

What are your thoughts on this? I'm sure that there are more senior posters here who received it and they'd have more of an insight.

Well done on the poll questions^

I was on the receiving end of a stick, and I swore that when I grew up & left school, one day I would confront that teacher and basically knock his block off with a swift right uppercut.

That day came, only it was a total anti-climax, for as he walked towards me I realised that he was an old man who had no idea who I was (as a grown up), which meant that I was sufficiently mature to ask myself 'was it really worth it'? so we passed on the footpath at close range, I gave him a steely stare as he went past ... and that was that.

He had been a right sadistic Nazi though, and I'll never forget when he left our school, it was like all our Christmases had come at once :-)

No more crying & no more worries from that day onwards.

Corporal punishment = NO.

Tigger · 01-10-2017 11:39PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

One eyed Jack wrote: »

By international experts in social care and the welfare of children.

Again - there is no law against smacking children.

There are cases brought against parents for child neglect, and the removal of the defence of reasonable chastisement simply means that parents cannot use it in their defence if charges are brought against them. It doesn't effectively mean anything else other than that, no matter how many articles you'll read in a newspaper.

the same law that prevents me from thumping you prevents you from thumping a child comon assault
untill recentlly there was a law loophole exemption for parents to thump their kids
thats gone now

One eyed Jack · 01-10-2017 11:40PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

That's a fair point but official advice is that there is a ban on smacking children. Again, we are back to 'reasonable force'. Which seems to be a neanderthal discussion in the 21st century in the context of a child being hit. I can knock a child out with a 'smack' of my hand.

I'm sure you could, but you could also be held liable for doing so. That's why I'm saying that rather than being told what is or isn't reasonable force, it could only be determined afterwards in each specific set of circumstances in each individual case whether your actions amounted to child cruelty or neglect or could be used to charge you with assault.

snowflaker · 01-10-2017 11:40PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

that 77% is heartening.

Professor Moriarty · 01-10-2017 11:43PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

LordSutch wrote: »

Well done on the poll questions^

I was on the receiving end of a stick, and I swore that when I grew up & left school, one day I would confront that teacher and basically knock his block off with a swift right uppercut.

That day came, only it was a total anti-climax, for as he walked towards me I realised that he was an old man who had no idea who I was (as a grown up), which meant that I was sufficiently mature to ask myself 'was it really worth it'? so we passed on the footpath at close range, I gave him a steely stare as he went past ... and that was that.

He had been a right sadistic Nazi though, and I'll never forget when he left our school, it was like all our Christmases had come at once :-)

No more crying & no more worries from that day onwards.

Corporal punishment = NO.

I was punched repeatedly in the chest by a teacher who was trying to make me cry. He only stopped when another pupil stood up and told him to stop. Years later, I had the same fantasy and the same reaction as you had when I saw him.

Professor Moriarty · 01-10-2017 11:49PM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm sure you could, but you could also be held liable for doing so. That's why I'm saying that rather than being told what is or isn't reasonable force, it could only be determined afterwards in each specific set of circumstances in each individual case whether your actions amounted to child cruelty or neglect or could be used to charge you with assault.

But a smack is a smack. Therefore, would it not be very foolish to smack a child and thus leave yourself subject to the interpretation of that smack by a Guard or a judge? Especially as it is legally indefensible according to official advice. Better to obey the law as advised.

McMurphy · 01-10-2017 11:55PM

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'd agree with your sentiments.

However, as a parent of 3, I would like to think that I've been rearing them correctly in that they don't get into trouble in school.

That saying, should a teacher (or anyone else) touch them in a violent manner, they'd soon have me in front of them.

I'm of the vintage of the type of fella whos had a few slaps from teachers over the years, and apart from one incident,(where I was a victim of mistaken identity) I deserved them.

Shows you how times have changed. In my day, telling your folks you got a bang on the ear from your teacher, usually resulted in another one from the auld lad (because you more than likely deserved to get the initial one)

In saying that, any one lays a hand on any of mine - all bets are off.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 02-10-2017 12:02AM

I experienced corporal punishment and it should be allowed

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm sure you could, but you could also be held liable for doing so. That's why I'm saying that rather than being told what is or isn't reasonable force, it could only be determined afterwards in each specific set of circumstances in each individual case whether your actions amounted to child cruelty or neglect or could be used to charge you with assault.

You kind of dodged the topic though a few times on what level of punishment should be deemed acceptable and how far is too far, and how much defense and retalaition the student should be allowed.

It's all veyr convenient using the "situation" defense, but are we talking about allowing the use of weapons/objects? Are hits to the head acceptable? Face? Hands? Backside?

Or does anything go if the situation permits?

Classroom corporal punishment

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