Hotel Cancels Pro life event due to Intimidation.

ohnonotgmail · 22-09-2017 02:34PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

http://abort73.com/abortion_facts/uk_abortion_statistics/

so that backs up my calculated figure of 20%. not the 30% or even the 25% you claimed earlier.

ohnonotgmail · 22-09-2017 02:37PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I was pointing out that a poster performed "simple maths" incorrectly. I linked to a site giving a figure of 20%.
I

the poster who mentioned simple maths was me. and i gave a calculated figure of 20%. which is correct. What is it exactly you disagreeing with?

seamus · 22-09-2017 02:38PM

Hotels cancels pro-life event after complaints: "Help, help! We're being oppressed by abortionists!"

Pro-life people harass and scream at women attending family planning clinics: "That's just free speech, innit"

The hypocrisy is not surprising.

lawred2 · 22-09-2017 02:39PM

OnDraught wrote: »

Looks like the hotel made a business decision because they're a business.

lefty liberal bullsh!t

or something

not taking sides obviously

20Cent · 22-09-2017 02:49PM

January wrote: »

Which is untrue also because I can tell you if there was it would have been widely advertised on tje number of prochoice groups I'm a member of on fb and there's no such page.

If you can find evidence of it though then fire away and post it to prove me wrong.

The amount of times you hear X is getting abuse on facebook and twitter. Then look it up and there is none. Happened a lot during the SSM referendum.

rainbow kirby · 22-09-2017 02:53PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

http://abort73.com/abortion_facts/uk_abortion_statistics/

Using extremist anti-choice sites as a source is the next best thing to Godwin'ing the thread.

ohnonotgmail · 22-09-2017 02:54PM

20Cent wrote: »

The amount of times you hear X is getting abuse on facebook and twitter. Then look it up and there is none. Happened a lot during the SSM referendum.

"help, help, i'm being repressed. come see the violence inherent in the system"

Stonedpilot · 22-09-2017 02:57PM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Using extremist anti-choice sites as a source is the next best thing to Godwin'ing the thread.

Why are all the mods on this hardline pro abortion?.

Would have thought a few might be pro life.

nozzferrahhtoo · 22-09-2017 02:58PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Approximately one third of pregnancies end in abortion.

Is that a global average or a particular country? You are not clear on the statistic of it's source, which is concerning. For example Gutmacher put it at 19% in the US in 2014. So it pays to be clear on the geographic AND temporal location of any statistics you cite.

Certainly however any abortion is too many. Ideally as a pro-choice person myself I would like to see 0% of pregnancies end in abortion. Wanting the CHOICE of abortion to be available to women is not mutually exclusive with wanting no abortions to ever actually have to happen.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If Ireland had liberal, on demand abortion legislation as in the U.K., we could expect similar figures for abortion of over 30% of pregnancies which would be 20,000 Irish abortions per annum.

I am not so sure it is that simple. There is an array of factors which could push that figure in either direction. For an anecdotal example, rather than hard data, I know of girls who went to the UK at pretty high expense and had second thoughts. But because of the expense, they could not simply go home, rethink it, and then fly back again when they were sure. So they went through with it despite their misgivings. Had it been a clinic a bus ride away in Dublin City for example..... they may have not had the abortion in the end.

So while there is POTENTIAL that local availability will push figures up, there are other factors that might push it down. Visibility of a service makes it more discussed, and so people end up more informed and so on. I suspect a more informed populace makes abortions go down. Hence the desire for better and EARLIER sex education in schools.

Further it is not just about making it legal and accessible, but about HOW we do so. Maybe if you just opened up no questions asked clinics the figures might go up, down, or stay the same. But what if the application procedure we implement involves ensuring the woman / couple in question is wholly informed of every other option available to them first? Is that kind of thing been given to the Irish women who travel secretly to the UK? Or could we reduce abortions here by catching those women who are under the radar now...... and giving them the attention, consideration, information, resources and time they need to make an informed or alternate decision?

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If as you say you are opposed to abortion is it not true to say restrictive laws on abortion in Ireland result in fewer Irish pregnancies ending in abortion?

I am genuinely not sure that that is the case.

However even if it was, I fear you have missed my point somewhat. Although I do not wish abortions to be happening I do want the CHOICE to be there. The latter ideal is more important to me than the former, although both are important. So even if choice DID push up the number of abortions (which I doubt, but however) then that would not alter my view.

Why? Because I want the number of abortions to go down for GOOD reasons....... contraception, education, social supports, and more........... not because we force it to go down by denying abortions to people who genuinely want or need them.

To put it a better way, maybe a rephrasing of my position will make it clearer to you, it is not that I want the number of abortions to go down......... but I want the reasons and motivations that lead to people seeking them to go down. I want the choice to be there, but I want the reasons people come to make that choice to be tackled as comprehensively as possible.

Sofiztikated · 22-09-2017 03:20PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Why? Because I want the number of abortions to go down for GOOD reasons....... contraception, education, social supports, and more........... not because we force it to go down by denying abortions to people who genuinely want or need them.

https://boingboing.net/2017/04/09/evidence-based-policy.html

Colorado spent a bit of money investing in fire and forget contraception, and would you look at that, teen births and teen abortions dropped by nearly 50%, and teen births to teens that are already mothers dropped by 58%!

And on the financial side, for every $1 spent, they're going to save $5.85 over 3 years in benefits and assistance.

Loafing Oaf · 22-09-2017 03:22PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Why are all the mods on this hardline pro abortion?.

Would have thought a few might be pro life.

Don't you know anything? George Soros set up boards.ie ten years ago as part of his long-term plan to foist abortion on the Irish people.

nozzferrahhtoo · 22-09-2017 03:29PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

https://boingboing.net/2017/04/09/evidence-based-policy.html

Colorado spent a bit of money investing in fire and forget contraception, and would you look at that, teen births and teen abortions dropped by nearly 50%, and teen births to teens that are already mothers dropped by 58%!

And on the financial side, for every $1 spent, they're going to save $5.85 over 3 years in benefits and assistance.

Yea it is nice to see the idea being vindicated that investment in contraception programs actually do work the way pro-choice people like myself imagine they would.

The Colorado situation is one close to my heart of course as I am related by a close marriage to Hickenlooper so I have given him a hard and good time every time I get to meet him, about some of his better and worse policies, or that of his state

Love giving him a hard time over his anti Weed policies too. He is totally anti drugs, though he was pretty magnanimous in defeat on that topic and bending to the will of his people. Lovely guy actually and I believe he is one of the people in consideration for the next presidential ticket. Though I am not looking forward to how the opposite will bring up the "shooting incident" against him if and when that goes ahead.

If people hate me now, imagine how awful I will be if I have the ear of the US president

SafeSurfer · 22-09-2017 03:56PM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

http://abort73.com/abortion_facts/uk_abortion_statistics/

Using extremist anti-choice sites as a source is the next best thing to Godwin'ing the thread.

I googled looking for a figure. I am honestly not familiar with that site. By the look of it I thought it was an abortion advocacy site.

Stonedpilot · 22-09-2017 04:01PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Don't you know anything? George Soros set up boards.ie ten years ago as part of his long-term plan to foist abortion on the Irish people.

Erm ok.
Begs the question why use it so?. Take it down from the inside eh?. Go Neo!.

Permabear · 22-09-2017 04:03PM

This post has been deleted.

blanch152 · 22-09-2017 04:08PM

January wrote: »

The hotel didn't fear for the safety of its staff, the hotel have not come out and said this publicly, this is made up nonsense from the organisation that had the meeting cancelled.

Nobody was harassed or intimidated, people posted publicly on the wall of the facebook page of the hotel because they were ignoring any private messages, emails and phone calls that had been made. There were no threats made to the staff of the hotel, if they had not cancelled the meeting then there would have been a silent protest outside of the hotel the day of the conference. Nobody was going to go charging into the hotel and try to ambush the conference.

Just like there was a peaceful protest in Jobstown back in the day?

Billy86 · 22-09-2017 04:20PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Just like there was a peaceful protest in Jobstown back in the day?

Are we going to apply that logic consistently so, and thus assume that since pro life people tend to lean to the right, and there was a ring wing rally involving Nazis committing terrorism in the US a few weeks ago, that the pro life crowd are automatically Nazis looking to murder people?

January · 22-09-2017 04:23PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Just like there was a peaceful protest in Jobstown back in the day?

Any pro-choice protest that has ever taken place in Dublin has been peaceful. Don't compare the two.

Will I Am Not · 22-09-2017 04:30PM

seamus wrote: »

Hotels cancels pro-life event after complaints: "Help, help! We're being oppressed by abortionists!"

Pro-life people harass and scream at women attending family planning clinics: "That's just free speech, innit"

The hypocrisy is not surprising.

That's if it is just because of complaints. This thread is about intimidation and threats(whether they happened or not is another thing) from what I can gather.

SafeSurfer · 22-09-2017 04:34PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Is that a global average or a particular country? You are not clear on the statistic of it's source, which is concerning. For example Gutmacher put it at 19% in the US in 2014. So it pays to be clear on the geographic AND temporal location of any statistics you cite.

Certainly however any abortion is too many. Ideally as a pro-choice person myself I would like to see 0% of pregnancies end in abortion. Wanting the CHOICE of abortion to be available to women is not mutually exclusive with wanting no abortions to ever actually have to happen.

I am not so sure it is that simple. There is an array of factors which could push that figure in either direction. For an anecdotal example, rather than hard data, I know of girls who went to the UK at pretty high expense and had second thoughts. But because of the expense, they could not simply go home, rethink it, and then fly back again when they were sure. So they went through with it despite their misgivings. Had it been a clinic a bus ride away in Dublin City for example..... they may have not had the abortion in the end.

So while there is POTENTIAL that local availability will push figures up, there are other factors that might push it down. Visibility of a service makes it more discussed, and so people end up more informed and so on. I suspect a more informed populace makes abortions go down. Hence the desire for better and EARLIER sex education in schools.

Further it is not just about making it legal and accessible, but about HOW we do so. Maybe if you just opened up no questions asked clinics the figures might go up, down, or stay the same. But what if the application procedure we implement involves ensuring the woman / couple in question is wholly informed of every other option available to them first? Is that kind of thing been given to the Irish women who travel secretly to the UK? Or could we reduce abortions here by catching those women who are under the radar now...... and giving them the attention, consideration, information, resources and time they need to make an informed or alternate decision?

I am genuinely not sure that that is the case.

However even if it was, I fear you have missed my point somewhat. Although I do not wish abortions to be happening I do want the CHOICE to be there. The latter ideal is more important to me than the former, although both are important. So even if choice DID push up the number of abortions (which I doubt, but however) then that would not alter my view.

Why? Because I want the number of abortions to go down for GOOD reasons....... contraception, education, social supports, and more........... not because we force it to go down by denying abortions to people who genuinely want or need them.

To put it a better way, maybe a rephrasing of my position will make it clearer to you, it is not that I want the number of abortions to go down......... but I want the reasons and motivations that lead to people seeking them to go down. I want the choice to be there, but I want the reasons people come to make that choice to be tackled as comprehensively as possible.

Would you agree that choice will certainly increase the number of abortions.

Abortions can be chosen because the baby in the womb is down syndromed.
Abortions can be chosen because the baby in the womb is female not male or vice versa.
Abortions can be chosen because of the presence of twins or triplets instead of the desire single child.

In all of these instances no amount of education or contraception will lead to zero abortions.
These are choices.

Grayson · 22-09-2017 04:35PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Here's the thing. I'm a member of a load of pro choice groups o n facebook. I'm also in some closed, private ones. I hadn't heard of this until today. It's always possible the was a closed group dedicated to this but it definitely wasn't publicly discussed on any of the large FB groups.

Also, we have no evidence that the hotel experienced any abuse. If the staff had received threats why wasn't anyone charged?
This group have no qualms about lying to vunerable pregnant women and telling them that they will get cancer or be suicidal if they have an abortion, so why should we believe them now?

_Dara_ · 22-09-2017 04:38PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

If you front a group that is happy to spread lies, then you become less trustworthy. That's kind of how it works. In any arena or walk of life, liars are regarded as untrustworthy. People are not going to trust you or what you say, and the only person to blame is you.

Skylinehead · 22-09-2017 04:49PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Why are all the mods on this hardline pro abortion?.

Would have thought a few might be pro life.

Why are you talking about people that aren't mods of this forum? It's utterly irrelevant to AH.

ToddyDoody · 22-09-2017 05:00PM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

I have a feeling these people will stop at nothing to stop others with opposing views.

Point 1: we live in a free society where *everyone* is entitled to their own views, opinions and beliefs. (Except if their offensive and not currently popular)

One eyed Jack · 22-09-2017 05:07PM

ToddyDoody wrote: »

Point 1: we live in a free society where *everyone* is entitled to their own views, opinions and beliefs. (Except if their offensive and not currently popular)

To be fair, people are still entitled to hold their own views, opinions and beliefs. The limitations and restrictions on their freedom to express their views, opinions and beliefs are a matter of law. It's not quite the free society you're proclaiming we live in at all, nor anything close to it really.

ohnonotgmail · 22-09-2017 05:13PM

Any chance a mod could change the title to say "Alleged intimidation" ?

A Little Pony · 22-09-2017 05:20PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

ToddyDoody wrote: »

Point 1: we live in a free society where *everyone* is entitled to their own views, opinions and beliefs. (Except if their offensive and not currently popular)

To be fair, people are still entitled to hold their own views, opinions and beliefs. The limitations and restrictions on their freedom to express their views, opinions and beliefs are a matter of law. It's not quite the free society you're proclaiming we live in at all, nor anything close to it really.

Which is tyranny.

Loafing Oaf · 22-09-2017 05:37PM

Grayson wrote: »

Also, we have no evidence that the hotel experienced any abuse. If the staff had received threats why wasn't anyone charged?

I think we have to assume that the hotel canceled the conference in response to some form of 'intervention' by pro-choice activists, anything else gets into the realm of demented conspiracy theories. IMO the discussion in this thread should focus on whether such 'no platform' agitation is ever appropriate, regardless of how politely and respectfully it is done...

ToddyDoody · 22-09-2017 05:37PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

To be fair, people are still entitled to hold their own views, opinions and beliefs. The limitations and restrictions on their freedom to express their views, opinions and beliefs are a matter of law. It's not quite the free society you're proclaiming we live in at all, nor anything close to it really.

Which is problematic quite frankly. The opposite of diversity in these areas is 'group-think', where the dominant view silences everyone else. Quite literally in this case.

One eyed Jack · 22-09-2017 05:46PM

ToddyDoody wrote: »

Which is problematic quite frankly. The opposite of diversity in these areas is 'group-think', where the dominant view silences everyone else. Quite literally in this case.

But one of the great things about living in Ireland is that the dominant view doesn't silence anyone. Everyone still has the same right to freedom of expression as everyone else. Nobody however, has the right to have anyone else agree with them. We're not living in a State where tyranny prevails, and nobody has either been silenced nor punished in this case, they've just been effectively told that the hotel in question has decided to withdraw it's offer to host their conference. There's nothing to stop them finding another venue or even speaking publicly in an area where their ideas will be exposed to an even greater audience. If what they're saying has any merit, then let people decide that for themselves.

Hotel Cancels Pro life event due to Intimidation.

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