The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)

The_Kew_Tour · 21-09-2017 11:49AM

Sonny678 wrote: »

Did the ref rob Cork in 88
.

Yes.

downthemiddle · 21-09-2017 12:48PM

I can see the potential for an offshoot to this thread, The Greatest Whingers Ever Thread.

Sonny678 · 21-09-2017 01:03PM

If Meath robbed Cork in 88. Surely then you will have to agree Dublin robbed kerry in 2011 with very dubious free. Correction a free that wasn't a free was given to the Dubs in 11. Nows thats twice the Dubs have been given two frees by referees who have now given two injury time frees to win two All for the so called greatest team ever. But I forgot when Dublin get a dubious free they don't rob any team. They deserve to win frees that's aren't frees . It's the way of GAA world.

Again if Meath robbed in 88 did Dublin not rob Kerry in 2011. With player gouging, penalties not given, soft frees to the dubs and winning point from a free did the Dubs not rob Mayo again this year.

Did Dublin not rob Tyrone in 1995 when the ref blowed for a free that was legal pick up in the dying seconds of the game and the ref disallowed a equalising score that followed.

So in summary did Dublin rob 3 All Irelands in the last 20 years
1 Did Dublin rob Tyrone in 1995? yes
2 Did Dublin rob kerry in 2011 ? 110% yes
3 Did Dublin rob Mayo this year ? yes

Sonny678 · 21-09-2017 01:10PM

It is a definate record for the greatst team ever for the same referee to give 2 frees in injury time in 2 different finals to the same team. Joe was ref in 2011 final and was ref in 2017 final both times Dublin won the All Ireland with frees in injury time to win an All Ireland by a single point. That is definatly a GAA record . No team has ever won 2 All Ireland in injury time with frees from the same ref. The greatest team ever my arse. No all time great team has such flawed pedigree but the New Zealand of gaelic football cannot or shall not be criticised.

Tommy Max · 21-09-2017 01:21PM

Bonniedog If that's what ye need to do to win then its a bit pointless even mentioning that team in the same sentence as the great Kerry side.

Your lack of a response was exactly what I expected. My points proven.

Bonniedog · 21-09-2017 01:21PM

Now now Sonny.

You are letting the mask of historical impartiality slip.

Sonny678 · 21-09-2017 01:23PM

You do get a feeling so many ex players are scared ****less to criticise the Dubs. The Sunday Game ignoring penalties player gouging players and final minutes of Dublin wrestling Mayo to the ground on mass. Usually The Sunday would wet itself over such issues. No The Sunday Game see no hear no Dublin evil.
I heard Cavanan saying on radio when asked about O Gara gouging that the game is over its irrelevant now Dublin won. This is a man who has spent 20 years whinging about late Meath tackle 20 years ago..
When Dublin foul it's OK nothing to see here when Meath foul it's a crime against humanity.
Former players are so scared to criticise Dublin it's frightening.

Bonniedog · 21-09-2017 01:24PM

Tommy Max wrote: »

Bonniedog If that's what ye need to do to win then its a bit pointless even mentioning that team in the same sentence as the great Kerry side.

Your lack of a response was exactly what I expected. My points proven.

Need what to win?

You are just retailing all the usual stuff that's aimed at any great team. And conveniently ignoring what others do to stop them.

Sonny678 · 21-09-2017 01:36PM

Yes but facts are facts and I deal in facts
Someone mention 88 game Meath v Cork Meath robbing Cork
Surely the Dublin v Tyrone final you could say Dublin robbed Tyrone and Kerry v Dublin 11 you could say Dublin robbed kerry

Bonniedog · 21-09-2017 01:42PM

Well off top of head, O'Rourke was in square for goal that won Leinster title for you boys in 1990..., but we don't dwell on the past :-)

Sephiral · 21-09-2017 01:47PM

They've won three in a row with a team with a very young age profile. They will be around for years with more youngsters to bring in to keep things fresh. There is every chance they will challenge Kerry 75-86 for the greatest team ever mantle.

As for the level of competition, the truth is that Ulster is the only competitive province and that the increasing levels of professionalism are making the game tiered between those with the resources and commitment to compete at a higher level and those that don't.

Oh, and seeing as everyone is on board for a whinge, Donegal would have won Sam in 2012 if Karl Lacey hadn'y been taken out of it in the AL semi. :mad:

BonnieSituation · 21-09-2017 02:19PM

With all this talk of Leinster being historically weak why is it never thrown at the "great" Kerry teams that they only had to maybe play Clare or Waterford or Tipp or Limerick then Cork in a Munster final and then into an AISF.

Strikes me it's as handy then as it was now.

Sure for how long were they getting byes to Munster finals? 2 games to an AIF... 3 to win it... doesn't sound tough....

Seems like the great Dublin, Down and Meath sides of the 90s had it tougher.

To my mind if Dublin won ten-in-a-row excuses would still be made to not accept them as "the greatest".

BonnieSituation · 21-09-2017 02:20PM

Sephiral wrote: »

They've won three in a row with a team with a very young age profile. They will be around for years with more youngsters to bring in to keep things fresh. There is every chance they will challenge Kerry 75-86 for the greatest team ever mantle.

As for the level of competition, the truth is that Ulster is the only competitive province and that the increasing levels of professionalism are making the game tiered between those with the resources and commitment to compete at a higher level and those that don't.

Oh, and seeing as everyone is on board for a whinge, Donegal would have won Sam in 2012 if Karl Lacey hadn'y been taken out of it in the AL semi. :mad:

2014?

BonnieSituation · 21-09-2017 02:21PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

It is a definate record for the greatst team ever for the same referee to give 2 frees in injury time in 2 different finals to the same team. Joe was ref in 2011 final and was ref in 2017 final both times Dublin won the All Ireland with frees in injury time to win an All Ireland by a single point. That is definatly a GAA record . No team has ever won 2 All Ireland in injury time with frees from the same ref. The greatest team ever my arse. No all time great team has such flawed pedigree but the New Zealand of gaelic football cannot or shall not be criticised.

How dare you accuse us of being like NZ.

We win on the pitch. Not in the lab.

Sonny678 · 21-09-2017 02:25PM

Bonniedog wrote:

Well off top of head, O'Rourke was in square for goal that won Leinster title for you boys in 1990..., but we don't dwell on the past :-)

A great day only Mick Lyons was injured in 89 we would have beaten Dublin 6 years in a row in championship not just 5 out of 6 years . Them where the days. When Meath had Dublin rattled to their very core. Mighty stuff

Sonny678 · 21-09-2017 02:35PM

If Dublin won ten in row. They would be greatest team in the history of sport. Its simple for Dublin to be the greatest they have to win a 5 in a row or 9 All Irelands. Simple as. Then no one can question any achievements.

Kerry had to face Cork from 1975 - 1986. Cork from 1975 to 86 where a top divsion 1 team. Dublin have not had to face a top Division 1 team in leinster since early noughties. Cork where for many of those years the third best team in country. Dublin this decade have never had opposition in leinster that where in the top 3. Again you have to go back to 2001 that a team in leinster was in the top 3 teams in the country other then Dublin . Kerry had tougher opposition in Munster in 75 to 86 then Dublin have had in leinster 2011 to 17.. Dublin face the easiest / the worst leinster championship ever. And Dublin are one of the few All Ireland teams in history that don't have top div 1 team in their provience .. And in the last 70 years I cannot think of any All Ireland winner who had no top div 1 team in their province other then Dublin. So this argument thrown at kerry having a easy provience. Is even more relevant to Dublin.

The Talking Bread · 21-09-2017 02:59PM

Bonniedog wrote: »

So throwing a metal object at a freetaker is just a bit of crack then?

Much of Dublin behaviour in last two minutes - actually Mayo Joe extended to 5 - was in reaction to what Keegan did,

no it wasn't. Stop fooling yourself there

Bonniedog · 21-09-2017 03:00PM

We don't need to fool ourselves.

BonnieSituation · 21-09-2017 03:03PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

If Dublin won ten in row. They would be greatest team in the history of sport. Its simple for Dublin to be the greatest they have to win a 5 in a row or 9 All Irelands. Simple as. Then no one can question any achievements.

Kerry had to face Cork from 1975 - 1986. Cork from 1975 to 86 where a top divsion 1 team. Dublin have not had to face a top Division 1 team in leinster since early noughties. Cork where for many of those years the third best team in country. Dublin this decade have never had opposition in leinster that where in the top 3. Again you have to go back to 2001 that a team in leinster was in the top 3 teams in the country other then Dublin . Kerry had tougher opposition in Munster in 75 to 86 then Dublin have had in leinster 2011 to 17.. Dublin face the easiest / the worst leinster championship ever. And Dublin are one of the few All Ireland teams in history that don't have top div 1 team in their provience .. And in the last 70 years I cannot think of any All Ireland winner who had no top div 1 team in their province other then Dublin. So this argument thrown at kerry having a easy provience. Is even more relevant to Dublin.

So what you're saying is get rid of the provincials?

Sonny678 · 21-09-2017 03:17PM

BonnieSituation wrote:

With all this talk of Leinster being historically weak why is it never thrown at the "great" Kerry teams that they only had to maybe play Clare or Waterford or Tipp or Limerick then Cork in a Munster final and then into an AISF.

Its not talk it's a fact leinster is historically weak. Since independence Dublin are the only team in leinster that never had rival

1920 and 30s Dublin ( All Ireland winners had Kildare ( double All Ireland winners)

1940s and 50s Meath( Double All Ireland winners had Louth ( leinster champions and All Ireland winner in 57) and Dublin ( All.Ireland winners)

1960s Meath (All Ireland winners) had Offaly ( double All Ireland finalist) and longford ( leinster champions and national league div 1 champions)

1970s Dublin ( Treble All Ireland winners) had Offaly (All Ireland winners) and Meath ( Division 1 national league winners)

19 80s Meath ( double All Ireland winners ) had Dublin (leinster champions) and Laois ( national league div 1 champions)

1990s Meath ( double All Ireland winners) had Dublin ( All Ireland winner) Kildare ( All Ireland finalist) Offaly ( leinster champions and Division 1 national league champions)

Noughties Dublin had Meath ( All Ireland finalist and leinster champions) Westmeath and Laois ( leinster champions)

2011 -2017 Dublin 5 times All Ireland champions have
0 All Ireland champions to face
0 All Ireland finalist to face
0 Leinster champions to face
0 League 1 div champions to face
0 div 1 opposition
Simply put Dublin have easiest leinster championship ever.

If the Dubs give out about the Kingdom easy route in Munster they are been hypocritical for Dublin have the easier provience ..have the weakest opposition of any All Ireland winner ever since Cavan in the 1930s.

Sonny678 · 21-09-2017 03:18PM

Yes yes yes please yes

Dublin have won 12 out of 13 leinster championships. The leinster championship is a joke.
One of the greatest teams ever versus maybe 2 or 3 divsion 2 teams and the rest is div 3 or div 4 teams
The leinster championship has a proud history and means something when counties other then Dublin win . But now the Byrne cup is more interesting. It actually is a more viable proper competition.

Leinster championship RIP

BonnieSituation · 21-09-2017 03:24PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

Its not talk it's a fact leinster is historically weak. Since independence Dublin are the only team in leinster that never had rival

1920 and 30s Dublin ( All Ireland winners had Kildare ( double All Ireland winners)

1940s and 50s Meath( Double All Ireland winners had Louth ( leinster champions and All Ireland winner in 57) and Dublin ( All.Ireland winners)

1960s Meath (All Ireland winners) had Offaly ( double All Ireland finalist) and longford ( leinster champions and national league div 1 champions)

1970s Dublin ( Treble All Ireland winners) had Offaly (All Ireland winners) and Meath ( Division 1 national league winners)

19 80s Meath ( double All Ireland winners ) had Dublin (leinster champions) and Laois ( national league div 1 champions)

1990s Meath ( double All Ireland winners) had Dublin ( All Ireland winner) Kildare ( All Ireland finalist) Offaly ( leinster champions and Division 1 national league champions)

Noughties Dublin had Meath ( All Ireland finalist and leinster champions) Westmeath and Laois ( leinster champions)

2011 -2017 Dublin 5 times All Ireland champions have
0 All Ireland champions to face
0 All Ireland finalist to face
0 Leinster champions to face
0 League 1 div champions to face
0 div 1 opposition
Simply put Dublin have easiest leinster championship ever.

If the Dubs give out about the Kingdom easy route in Munster they are been hypocritical for Dublin have the easier provience ..have the weakest opposition of any All Ireland winner ever since Cavan in the 1930s.

By "historically weak" I mean now it's being portrayed that we have it really easy these days compared to before.

I'm not marching back to the 20s and 30s as they are pretty irrelevant. And personally I think football pre 1980 is practically irrelevant in certain senses... but...

For starter there's at least one more round of game for Dublin to have played in general. And even then it could be 2 due to the inherent bias that gave Kerry and Cork auto SF places and Kerry auto final places in some years.

How anyone can argue with a straight face that the Leinster that Dublin had to navigate in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s came close to being weaker than the gash that the Keengdum faced is beyond me.

Why can't we just all sit back and marvel at what Dublin and Mayo gave us on Sunday?

I think we're better than the 1970s Kerry team. Some don't. But I think the Kerry team in the noughties was probably better than them too. (That hurt to write) *vomits*

Nidgeweasel · 21-09-2017 03:35PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

I think 2012 was a massive chance for Mayo. No Dublin or kerry in the final. But Donegal did what Kerry did to Mayo in 04 and 06. Blow them away in the first 15 mins. Which they did.

But after that the game settled and Mayo played well . Mayo were actually the better team after the first 15 mins. But the damage was done in the first few mins.

Donegal were very well.organisd . A brillant system under a terrific modern tactician manager. But without that system I think there were weaknesses in that Donegal outfit. Look how they were slaughtered the following year by Mayo. That was highly unusual for reigning champions.

Of All the Ulster winner in the last 25 years I would rate 2012 team the weakest team. The 92 Donegal Team was stronger. So was Tyrone and Armagh and down teams.

I think 2o12 was an example of charismatic individual and county merging as one. Like a movement our a cult for the want of a better word. Donegal players and supporters got behind MCGUINESS and it just clicked . Similar to Loughnane with Clare in 95 and Griffin with Wexford in 96.
It was facinating to watch. McGuiness is one of most interesting GAA figures of recent times. Donegal is a fine county with friendly charming people. It is quite a unique county. I think McGuiness seemed to get the whole county to rise up in that period. Similar to Loughnane and Griffin.

This rhetoric is trotted out all the time now. Mayo were apparently the better team (after they'd conceded 2-1 in 10 minutes.)

It's drivel. They kicked 2 from play and 2 from frees in about 10 minutes near the end of the first half (2 of which were Hail Mary efforts) then offered nothing.

Donegal kept them scoreless for combined total of 24 minutes out of the 35 in the second half and were comfortable throughout. Mayo the better team aye.

And as for the weakest team from the last 25, more drivel. They went to 6 Ulster finals In a row something that nobody else in that period has done. And went to 2 AI finals in 3 years. Something that Derry and Donegal in 92 were unable to do.

They were butchered in 2013 because they were walking wounded and had an enormous reduction in participation in training throughout the year not to mention club championship ran off in the middle of the Ulster SFC. More pertinent to back and say once those problems were sorted out they were back in a final in 2014.

Sonny678 · 21-09-2017 03:39PM

BonnieSituation wrote:

I'm not marching back to the 20s and 30s as they are pretty irrelevant. And personally I think football pre 1980 is practically irrelevant in certain senses... but...

Football prior to 1980 is irrelevant
Football prior to 1980 IS IRRELEVANT
FOOTBALL PRIOR TO 1980 IS IRRELEVANT

THIS HAS TO BE THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY COMMENT I HAVE EVER HEARD UTTERED ABOUT GAA MATTER . TO PROVE A POINT A HUNDRED YEARS OF GAA, 20 DUBLIN ALL IRELANDS HAVE TO BE WIPED AWAY IRRELEVANT. UNBELIEVABLE.

The Talking Bread · 21-09-2017 03:41PM

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

This rhetoric is trotted out all the time now. Mayo were apparently the better team (after they'd conceded 2-1 in 10 minutes.)

It's drivel. They kicked 2 from play and 2 from frees in about 10 minutes near the end of the first half (2 of which were Hail Mary efforts) then offered nothing.

Donegal kept them scoreless for combined total of 24 minutes out of the 35 in the second half and were comfortable throughout. Mayo the better team aye.
.

Mayo kept Dublin scoreless for all but 5 minutes of the first half last year in the drawn match, doesn't mean they were the "better team" over all.

How much did Donegal score in that period?

Dublin scored 9 points that day nine. They obviously scored 2 goals but they were pretty freakish in their concession. (not that it devalues them really)

Sonny678 · 21-09-2017 03:45PM

Nidgeweasel wrote:

This rhetoric is trotted out all the time now. Mayo were apparently the better team (after they'd conceded 2-1 in 10 minutes.)

Nidgeweasel wrote:

It's drivel. They kicked 2 from play and 2 from frees in about 10 minutes near the end of the first half (2 of which were Hail Mary efforts) then offered nothing.

Nidgeweasel wrote:

Donegal kept them scoreless for combined total of 24 minutes out of the 35 in the second half and were comfortable throughout. Mayo the better team aye.

Nidgeweasel wrote:

And as for the weakest team from the last 25, more drivel. They went to 6 Ulster finals In a row something that nobody else in that period has done. And went to 2 AI finals in 3 years. Something that Derry and Donegal in 92 were unable to do.

Nidgeweasel wrote:

They were butchered in 2013 because they were walking wounded and had an enormous reduction in participation in training throughout the year not to mention club championship ran off in the middle of the Ulster SFC. More pertinent to back and say once those problems were sorted out they were back in a final in 2014.

I'm not saying they were a bad team. They were a terrific team. Wonderful achievement in 2012. The defence system was a sight to behold . And McGuiness is a genius.
But the 1992 te was better. 92 team had to face Derry the 1993 All Ireland champions and Down All Ireland champions 91 and 94 year in year out. 3 All Ireland winners in 1 provience. The competitiveness of matchs in Ulster in the early 90s were savage. Proper battles between some of the greatest players teams players and managers to ever play the game. 1994 first round game Down V Derry was as close to a perfect game of football as I ever saw.

BonnieSituation · 21-09-2017 03:50PM

Sonny678 wrote: »

Football prior to 1980 is irrelevant
Football prior to 1980 IS IRRELEVANT
FOOTBALL PRIOR TO 1980 IS IRRELEVANT

THIS HAS TO BE THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY COMMENT I HAVE EVER HEARD UTTERED ABOUT GAA MATTER . TO PROVE A POINT A HUNDRED YEARS OF GAA, 20 DUBLIN ALL IRELANDS HAVE TO BE WIPED AWAY IRRELEVANT. UNBELIEVABLE.

Hmmmm...

Practically irrelevant... In certain senses...

Calm toi.

---

I'm worried you've blown a gasket.

I do worry that your inherent Meath bias is leading you down this odd path.

Nidgeweasel · 21-09-2017 03:52PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Mayo kept Dublin scoreless for all but 5 minutes of the first half last year in the drawn match, doesn't mean they were the "better team" over all.

How much did Donegal score in that period?

During that little purple patch of 4 points? They got 1 themselves.

https://youtu.be/WEWo-JKgqWs

Full game there for anybody who wants to educate themselves. Mayo the better team

Sonny678 · 21-09-2017 03:53PM

So is soccer before 1980 irrelevant no best no Pele
is rugby prior before 1980 irrelevant no Lions team 74
Is politics prior to 1980 irrelevant no easter rising no famine no world war 2 no Romans
Was life before 1980 irrelevant.

Unbelievable. I actually saw Barney Rock walking through a Meath Street earlier today. If I knew the above earlier I would have said to Barney your just relevant Barney coz you won an All Ireland in 1983.

Football prior to 1980 is irrelevant.
I have never uttered the following saying in my life to any person before but after reading the above comment I utter word I thought I would never say

Omg omg OMG

BonnieSituation · 21-09-2017 03:53PM

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

During that little purple patch of 4 points? They got 1 themselves.

https://youtu.be/WEWo-JKgqWs

Full game there for anybody who wants to educate themselves. Mayo the better team

How anyone thought Mayo were the better team that day is beyond me.

Good jesus.

...blanket defence...

The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)

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