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The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)
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19-09-2017 11:57pm#1Firstly Congratulations to the Dubs. Dublin are the team of the decade. One of the All time great teams. Their achievements will go down in the history books. They are a credit to their county and clubs. This is a golden era for Dublin football.
However there those seem to be allot of people trying to rewrite history and downplay Kerrys 75 to 86 achievements. In order to prove Dublin are the best. I think allot of supporters who started following the game in the last 10 or 15 years are pushing this idea that Dublin are the greatest. They probaly dont know the achievements of Down or past Cavan teams. And never heard of Downs Sean O Neill or Cavans Higgins.
However the facts do not back this up. By saying the facts is not downgrading Dublins wins. They have achieved greatness. But facts are facts.
1 Kerry team of 70s and 80s. Did three great things 1 Win All.Ireland in 1975 with one of the youngest teams ever to win Sam ? by beating one of the greatest teams ever..2 They won a 4 in a row between 78 to 81. 3 They won 3 in a row 84 85 86.
They also had some of the greatest players of all time playing in their chosen positions. This Dublin team have one player playing that could be said to be the best ever in his position. Eg Stephen Cluxton is the greatest goalkeeper ever. Kerry had Jack O Se the greatest midfielder ever and possibly the greatest footballer ever. They had Pat Spillane the greatest number 12 in the history of the game . And Mickey Sheedy the greatest number 15 in the history of the game. They also had Paudi O Se possibly the greatest number 5 ever. While John O Keefe Ogie Moran Ger Power John Egan Bomber Liston are some of the greatest players of the modern era.
Kerry had to face tougher opposition then Dublin. Kerry had to beat one of the greatest teams ever, the Dublin team 74 -77. This Dublin have not faced an All time great team. That is a fact. Also every year Kerry faced an excellent Cork team who were a top Division 1 team and where regularly in the top 3 in country. Dublin have not had to face top Division 1 team in their provience since the early noughties. Also in ther 70s you had very good Meath and Armagh teams.
In the west you had a brillant Roscomon team ,one of the greatst teams to come west of the Shannon in the last 50 years. A brillant defence backboned by the Great Harry Keegan and at midfield one of the greatest talent to ever cross the Shannon , the late great Dermot Earley senior. That Roscomon team won 5 Connachts and Roscommons first league and gave the greatest team ever one of their toughest finals. You also had a brillant Offaly team led by the most naturally talented footballer ever, Matt Connor. Offaly 82 was a brillant team. In the mid 80s Tyrone and Monaghan had two excellent teams. Which in any other era would have won an All Ireland. The Monaghan team 85 is Monaghans greatest team ever. And the Tyrone 84- 86 was up to that point Tyrone greatst team ever led by warriors like Donaghy John Lynch Eugene McKenna and Frank McGuigan. That team was a much superior outfit to the current Tyrone team. Would any current footballer be as brillant as the great Frank McGuigan.
In comparison Dublin have been great but so many counties are hitting record low levels.0
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The province of leinster is at an all time low. Never in the history of leinster football has a team had to face no rival or no Division 1 top teams. Dublin had Kildare in the 20s. Meath had Louth in 40s and 50s. Meath had Offaly in the 60s. Dublin had Meath and Offaly in the 70s and 80s. Meath had Dublin in the 80s and 90s..And in the golden age of leinster football between 1995 and 2005 you had top Meath Dublin Kildare Offaly loais Westmeath Wexford and Louth teams. All were Division 1 teams
In this decade . For the first time ever in the history of leinster football the top team in the province have no opposition. Have no rival top Division 1 opponent to face in the provience. So it is true to say Dublin have the easiest leinster championship to deal with ever. Imagine if you had teams of the late 90s eg Kildare Offaly and Meath around at the moment. Surely Dublin wouldn't be winning All their matchs by 15 or 20 points. Maybe they might even lose 1 or
2.
Actually Dublin are the only All Ireland winners of the last 70 years that don't have Division 1 team / a top team in their province. In the early 90s 3 of the best 4 teams in the country were in Ulster eg Derry Donegal and Down. Imagine if kerry Mayo and Dublin were in the same provience. That's what a Down faced between 91 and 94.
Also at the moment so many strong teams are going through in recent years their worst time in decades
1 Meath This decade so far is Meaths worst by a mile since 1930s
2 Kildare before this season where at their lowest since before the Dwyer years.
3 Laois a div 4 team are at their lowest level now since 1970s.
4 Offaly football are their lowest since they emerged in the early 60s
5 Armagh showed promise this year. But are now 3 of 4 seasons in div 3. Which would mean they are at their lowest since early 70s
6 Down showed a bit promise this year but in the last few year's had record number of defeats which means you could say Down are at their lowest since 1950s. No Ulster title for Down in quater of a century.
7 Derry are div 3 team next year. A county at lowest ebb for years
8 Cork are the weakest ever in the modern era. You have to go back the 1940s or 1950s when Cork where been beaten by Tipp. And Cork were not given any real opposition to Kerry and Cork were not top divsion 1 team.
9 Galway have shown some promise. But the fact is Galway have not won a match in the championship in Croker in 17 years. That is extraordinary for gaelic football third most sucessful county.
So many counties are going through a bad time. This means the competition is weaker.0 -
In terms of the top teams Dublin face. There are question marks
Dublin have no real rival,an All time great rival. For example Kerry team of the 70s had to face one of the greatest teams ever eg Dublin 74 to 77
Meath 80s had to face the greatest Cork team ever. Tyrone of 00s had to face a 5 time great All Ireland winning kerry team. Dublin have not faced any sort of the above opposition. What sort of opposition is that. Simply a multiple All Ireland winning team. Dublin are one of the fews teams in the last 50 years that have had to face no team that had multiple All Irelands. Actually Dublin are the only team to have dominated gaelic football with no multiple All Ireland winning team in the same era. Kerry had to face Tyrone in the noughties. Kerry had to face Galway and Meath in the late 90s. Donegal and Derry had to face two time winner in Down in early 90s. Meath had to face 2 time winner Cork in the 80s. Kerry had to face three times Dublin winning team. And Offaly 71 72 had to face double All Ireland winning kerry team 69 and 70. So Dublin are the only team to win Sam in their era with no multiple winner around at the same time.
Mayo are wonderful bravery team . Who are a credit to their county. For heart and passion they such an admirable team. But until they win an All.Ireland they can not be considered a great team in the history of the game. They are great team in the current times. But you cannot call them a great team compared to past All.Ireland winning teams. And Dublin have won 3 All.Ireland against a county which have been brillant in the last 25 years. And in so many ways have won the admiration and hearts of the country for the skill and passion.
But a county that when it comes All Ireland (because they have lost so many) are mental basket case. And when it comes to last mins in every final the pressure and desire and the weight of history on Mayos shoulders means they freeze. Dublin have won 3 All. Ireland against team that have problems winning All. I Irelands.
The current kerry team and team of 14 is not a great Kerry team compared the great Kerry teams of 70s 80s and 90s. There is a great Kerry team coming down the track. But the current kerry team and 2014 where one of the poorest ever to win Sam. Of the Kerry teams of the 60s 70s 80s 90s noughties and this decade. This crop is the poorest in comparison to the magnificent genius kerry teams of the 30s 40s 50s 60s 60s70 80s and noughties. Kerry have won 35 All Ireland with great teams . But 1997 and 2014 are the poorest kerry All Ireland winners
Donegal team was well organised and all drilled in 2013. But was no way in the league of great Ulster teams eg Cavan 40s 50s Down 60s and 90s Tyrone noughties. Donegal Team of 92 was a stronger team. 2013 winners was basically one county coming under the influence of maverick outstanding manager and individual who masterminded a victory win by his touch of genius eg Jim McGuiness. Never in the history game has man ager team and supporters clicked under 1 man.
But that Donegal team was not a great Ulster outfit compared n comparison to Down 60s and 90s team. Of the winners from Ulster in the last 70 or 80 yeas probaly Derry 1993 and Donegal 2014 where the poorest winners. Cavan 40s 50s Down 60s and 90s Donegal of the 90s and Tyrone and Armagh of the noughties where better teams. Derry team 1993 were probably a better team also.
So overall the opposition Dublin face is weaker then any opposition, any winners have faced in the last half century or more.0 -
Meath 96.0
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So where do Dublin come in the lIst of great teams. Well by winning 3 in a row they have to be considered one of the great team. For me it is impossible to top team 1 to ten 20 list. That's very hard to do. But you could have levels of greatness ,so this is may stab at it.
(Also no teams before late 1920, I just think with revolution war of independence and civil war how competitive was the GAA prior to late 1920. Of course you have to mention Wexford 14 -18 four in a row team. But I begin with Sam Maguire been handed out for the first time to kildare in the late 1920s and end in 2017 )
The top 4 are
1 Kerry 1975 to 1986 - 8 time winners a three in a row and 4 in a row. Until this Dublin team win 9 Sam's or a 5 in a row. This is the greatest no debate, full stop
2 Down 1960 1961. They might have won only 2 and many of team won in 68. But their impact on gaelic football is extraordinary. Their achievements are even more extraordinary. They had only won their 1 title their first Ulster in 59. It would be like Sligo or Wicklow winning three All Ireland in 2020s and beating a great Kerry team in 3 finals. Actually It would be like London wininns 3 All Ireland in 2020s. A team from the 6 counties wining all Ireland was not seen as possible. All the Ulster teams that won after Down Derry Donegal 90s and Tyrone Armagh 00s are standing on the showers of these Down gaints. If Down did not win 1960 there would have been no Tyrone in the noughties or Jimmy McGuiness in this decade . That team changed the face of gaelic football. They brought tactics to the table. Players not playing in position , short passing and breaking ball at midfield. They really revolutionised the game
3 Dublin 1974 to 1977. I know this Dublin have won more. But that Dublin team also changed that Face of gaelic football. 1974 is the year zero for modern gaelic football. Before that everything was black and white. They brought color to the game. Heffernan changed the face of the game with tactics and the role of manger. They also creates hill 16 and modern Dublin.. Before 74 country lads won most of Dublin all.Ireland. After 74 it was now a team with Dublin lads. They also came from nowhere with only them and Meath in 96 the only teams that came from nowhere to win Sam. They also defeated the greatest team ever twice. For me still greatest Dublin team ever
4 Galway 1964 1965 1966. To win three in a row. Again when you look.at connacht football. So few winners from a football mad province. A provience that has to deal with problems of emigration and rural depopulation
For a team to win three in a row is incredible.
Next level All Time great winners ( not in order)
Dublin 2011-2017
Cavan 1947 1948 1952
Kerry 4 in a row 30s 1929 1930 1931 1932
Next level Great teams ( not in order)
Mayo 1950 1951
Meath 1987 1988
Kerry 5 times winners in 00s 1997 2000 2004 2006 2007 2009
Tyrone 200320 05 2008
Next level Brillant-Great teams( not in order)
Kildare 1927 1928
Roscommon 2 time winners in the forties 1943 1944
Offaly 1971 1972
Cork1 1989 1990
Kerry 1969 1970
Galway 1956
Down 1991 1994
Kerry 1940 1941
Next level Brillant teams but not truly great eg did not win a double or other reasons( not in order)
Mayo 1936
Dublin 1958
Kerry 1955
Meath 1949 1954
Louth 1957
Cork 1973
Offaly 1982
Donegal 1992
Meath 1996 1999
Galway 1998 2001
Armagh 2002
Cork 1945
Meath 1967
Cavan 1933 1935
That's my lIst of basically the best 30 teams ever.
The only counties missing from All Ireland great list of modern era winners are eg Kerry 97 2014 Donegal 2013 Cork 2010. All excellent teams all very good teams. But below all time winners mentioned above. Basically just outside the top 30 greatest teams ever. Still magnificent teams.0 -
The reason I started this thread is because there has been allot of talk about Dublin been the greatest. I just wish people would take into account teams like Down in the 60s. Or Cavan winning an All Irelands in New York in 1947 with legend's like Reilly and Higgins . Our Offaly doing the double in 72 by beating Kerry by 8 points . Our Roscommon winning 2 in a row in the during the emergency in the fortiess. There have been allot of great teams in the game.
Dublin have joined that list of great teams.
If you look at my list you will see I have Dublin in the top ten greatest teams ever and just outside the top 4. I have them as the greatest team of the last 30 years and the best of this decade. If they win 4 in a row. They will have to be seen in the top 2 or 3 and if they win 5 in a row the holy grail of Irish sport. They are the greatests. Simple as.
They are wonderful brillant gaelic football team. But they are not above criticism. I still stand by the comments that Dublin are playing worst leinster championship in history. They are the only All Ireland winners that don't have divsion 1 teams in their province. Kerry always had Cork. Cork have always been divsion 1 a top 5 or 6 county until recently. What if Down had no competition in Ulster in early 90s. Could they have won 3 or 4 in a row. With forward line of Carr Mason McCarten Blaney Whitehall Linden I think maybe they could have . If Meath did not have to face strong Kildare and Offaly teams in 97 98. And leinster provience in 97 98 was like the leinster provience at the moment where you have Division 4 3 and 2 teams. No divsion 1 teams. Would Mesth have won 2 in a row in 97. With forward line Tommy Dowd Tevour Giles Graham Geraghty Evan Kelly Brendan Reilly Ollie Murphy . It wouldn't have been impossible.
If Kerry did not have to face Tyrone or Armagh in the noughties, could that have won 6 7 or 8 All Irelands. You will never know. But that Dublin are the only All Ireland winners ever that have no opposition in their province and no real all time great rival ( a multiple All Ireland winner in their era). That is unprecedented in the history of gaelic football.
But still a three in a row. Cannot be argued with It is and means history. And will be remembered in 50 or 60 years time. That is the true measure of greatness. How a team is remembered. Some teams reputation grows others falter. The Meath teams of 80s where despised at the time. But as a Meath have declined and people miss the great battles between Meath and Dublin . That teams reputation and legend has grown. While the Cork team of the same time. It Is mentioned but not really talked about not highly t ratEd as other teams.
The Offaly team of 71 72 is a great team better then 82 team. But because everyone remeber Darby and Offaly stopping 5 in a row. The 82 team is more remebered. People remeber rivalries eg Meath v Cork Dublin v Kerry Kerry v Tyrone. It's a massive pity we don't have a great Meath or Galway or Down or kerry around. That would really add to this era .
But still a three in a row is history making and to deny Dublin greatness would be wrong . But we wouldn't really know this teams true worth until if fiinishs up or in 20 years time. How we look back at this team in 20 years time. That's the true test, measure of greatness. Ali is the greatest coz people remeber his charisma and big fights. That's the way it goes.0 -
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So in summary Yes Mayo are the greatest team in Connacht IN THIS DECADE
Yes Mayo v Dublin is the greatest rivalry IN THIS DECADE
But football did not begin in 2010. Allot of people are basing greatness on what they have seen currently. Gaelic football has 130 years of great games and teams. I would ask people to find out about past great players and great teams instead of saying the only team they have witnessed is the greatest. Most people would say Pele is the greatst soccer player ever. Most have never seen Pele play.
I will put it very simply Dublin v Mayo is a fine rivalry but a flawed one. Because only 1 team wins . Since Mayo defeated Dublin in 2013 Dublin have been unbeaten in 12 league and championship matchs v Mayo. That's a very uneven rivalry to say the least. I will put it simply belown
Kerry 00s ( 5 time All Ireland winners) v Tyrone 00s ( 3 times All.Ireland winners) = a great GAA rivalry
Meath 80s ( 2 time All Ireland winners ) v Cork 80s ( 2 time All Ireland winner) = a great GAA rivalry
Kerry 70s ( 8 time winnerss) v Dublin 70s ( 3 times All.Ireland winners) = a great GAA rivalry
Dublin this decade ( 5 times All Ireland winners) v Mayo this decade ( 0 times All Ireland winners) = I will let you do the sums. Can you see the difference in a real great GAA rivalry where two equal great teams go to battle.
Also I have heard some say this Mayo are the greatest team from the west ever. This team would not make the top 5 teams to come from the west
1 Galway 60s 3 in a row winning team. Beating Kerry in two finals. A Kerry team that had Mick O Connell and Mick Dwyer
2 Mayo 50 51 the second greatest team to cross the Shannon. Winning back to back All Ireland at a very competitive time. When you had great Cavan Meath Louth kerry and Dublin teams.
3 Galway 1956 I know they won just 1. But two word are suffice Purcell and McDonagh. Purcell they call him master. Possibly and probaly Sean Purcell is not only Galways greatest player but possibly the greatst footballer of all time.
4 Mayo 1936 Not just the All.Ireland but they won 6 leagues in a row . Enough said
5 Roscommon 1942 1943 They won 2 All.Ireland when the world was at war. Great achievement in the Emergency.
6 Joint sixth are - the Mayo Current team. One of the best teams to never win Sam and Roscommon late 70s One of the best teams never to win Sam0 -
Meath 96.
I think your trying to say Meath 1996-2001 were not good team. Well I can respond with facts and stats in 2000, 3000 word essay to say why they were an excellent team at time where there was a very comptetitive leinster championship and a very competitive championship overall.
A championship in the 90s where you had the best kildare team of the last 90 years, the best Offaly team of the last 30s year, very good Cork and Dublin teams, the greatest team to come from Conancht in 50 years (Galway 98 01) , Beginning of the great kerry team of the noughies and the the greatest Armagh team of all time . Also Tyrone had a much better team then they had now . And Derry were a team that underperformed but were strong mutiple league winners. Mayo had their best team since the 50s upto that date. While Louth Roscommon Laois and Westmeath all the had emerging teams which many would in later years become provincial winners .
In the late 90s you had Trevor Giles Graham Gerathy Darren Fay Michael Donnellan Padraig Joyce Ja Fallon Maurice Fitzgerald Dara O Se Dara Cinneade Seamus Moynihan Ciaran Whelan Dessie Farell Dessie Dolan Declan Browne Liam McHale Anthony Tohill Peter Cavanan Brian Dooher Kieran McGeeney . Yep not a bad group of player. Not a bad time for football whatsoever.
Anyway here is small snippet of information to back up my viewpoint
Played in 4 All Ireland finals losing 1 final. They have played in 1 less final then Dublin. And if leinster was not as strong as it was in the late 90s and was in the state it is now , they would have played in more.
They were unbeaten in 4 games v Dublin in the championship between 96 and 01. This is one best winning records v Dublin in the last 70 years. Only Meath 86 to 91 had a better record v Dublin in the last 70 years with only one loss in 9 games between 86-91 v Dublin
They also defeated Mayo Tyrone Armagh and Cork. The Mayo team up to that was the best Mayo team of the last 40 years. The Armagh team would become Armagh greatest team. The Tyrone team was the first team to do the double in Ulster in 20 years. While Meath defeated the greatest Kildare team of the last 90 years in a three game saga in 97. And also hammered twice in 98 and 99 Offalys best team in 30 years. They also defeated Kerry by 15 points in 01 which is Kerrys worst defeat in championship ever in 130 years.
They also played in second game v Kildare in 97 which is considered to be one of the best games ever.
And then the players they had:
Darren Fay One of the best full back of all times , the best of his generation
O Connell The best number 7 wing back of all time. The only modern player on the team of the Millennium.
O Reilly 1996-1999 One of the best corner backs in Ireland
McDermont The best midfielder in Ireland
Dowd One of the best forwards in Ireland in the mid 90s
B Reilly Best full forward in Ireland in 1996
Trevor Giles Best footballer in Ireland
Two time footballer of the year. Footballer of the year at 21. And considered to be one of the best if not the best play maker centre forward of the last 40 years.
Graham Gerathy All star wing back all star wing forward all star full forward. Simply one of the most talented footballers of the last 30 years. And the most talented player ever to play for Mesth.
Ollie Murphy- Between 99 - 01 he was the best corner forward in Ireland. Unmarkable between 99-01.
And don't forget they managed by the second most successful manager ever.
The Meath team of 1996-01 is one of the greatest young team ever. And is the greatest young team of the last 30 years. They won an All Ireland in 96 with 7 under 21 players. The only team to win an All.Ireland with such young players ever was Kerry in 1975 with a pile of under 21.
So the greatest young team of the last 30 years, managed by one of the greatest manager if not the greatest of all time . A team who had some of the best footballer ever eg best full back, midfielder, centre forward and corner forward in Ireland at the time and had the greatest Wing back in the history of the game. A team who were unbeaten v Dublin in 4 games . A team who gave Kerrys worst defeat ever and defeated strong Cork Mayo Armagh Tyrone Kildare Offaly Westmeath and louth teams . A team who played in 4 All Ireland finals losing 1 is not considered a good team. Well then allot of teams that are considered great cannot be considered. That Meath was more successful then Donegal 92 Derry 93 Armagh 02 Donegal 12 Kerry 14 Offaly 82 Dublin 83 Cork 73 Dublin 95 . That Meath was just as successful as the Kerry and Galway teams of the late 90s the Down team 91 and 94. A lot of special teams there.
The fact is a two time All.Ireland winning team in most counties is considered a brillant team. With so many great players. And being the youngest teams ever to win Sam along with Kerry 75. How could the greatest young team of the last 40 years not be considered a good team.0 -
Bit of a Mandela effect with Dublin. They won the SM 3 times from 1983-2011. Hardly prolific.
From 2000, they have won it 4 times. Pretty impressive, true, but many are talking like these latter achievements are unprecedented in GAA. They're certainly not.
Lately the soundbytes seem to ring out like they've been whipping everyone for decades, which isn't the case.0 -
Fantastic thread Sonny,your GAA knowledge is mesmerising.Can't say I disagree with the vast majority of the content or rankings in your posts.0
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Some points.
1) This Dublin team is a long way from its sell-by date. You argue that they can't be considered 'truly great' unless they win 4, or 5, in a row. There's every chance they will actually do this. Even if they don't, they will surely win a few more in the next few years. They have 5 in 7 years so far. So, would 7 or 8 All-Irelands in a 10-12 year span really impress you so little that they can't even make your top three?
2) Your argument as to the significance of Dublin's wins is troublesome. So Dublin aren't beating 'top teams', only Mayo, yet Mayo aren't a 'top team' because they can't win an all-Ireland (which would almost certainly involve beating Dublin). This is called circular logic, my friend. Can't have it both ways.
3) ultimately, you can't compare teams from different eras. You assert that <insert Kerry player> is the best of all time, but that's merely your opinion. It's still fun to speculate, but that's all it is. speculation.0 -
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Baron Kurtz wrote: »Bit of a Mandela effect with Dublin. They won the SM 3 times from 1983-2011. Hardly prolific.
From 2000, they have won it 4 times. Pretty impressive, true, but many are talking like these latter achievements are unprecedented in GAA. They're certainly not.
Lately the soundbytes seem to ring out like they've been whipping everyone for decades, which isn't the case.
The question is which 'team' might be the best ever. Not 'county'. That would be Kerry anyway, based purely on All-Irelands won. So Dublin's 1983-2011 record is irrelevant.
What they have done is won 5 times since 2011, and not 4 since 2000, as you assert. Also the soundbites haven't been saying what you think they have.0 -
My top ten
1 Kerry 1975 -1986 - The Greatest Team
2 Down 1960 1961 - The team that caused the greatest earthquake in gaelic football that still has impact today.
3 Dublin 1974-1977- The team that changed the face of Gaelic football, the year 1974 is the year zero for modern gaelic football
4 Galway 1964-1966- The team that won so much but had to face so many barriers and obstacles and handicaps eg emigration rural depopulation. Two final wins over Kerry.
5 Cavan 1947 48 52- Won an All Ireland in the big Apple, New York, beat that. A very competitive period in gaelic football. Cavans two in row is the pinnacle of Cavans decades domination of Ulster football. The win over Mayo in 1948 on the day of the "big wind" is one of the most extraordinary finals ever . Coupled with the win in New York in the year previous. Cavans double has to the best and most unique double win of them all. Cavan would have won a 3 in a row in 49, only to face a brillant Meath team in the final. Cavan had two brillant teams on its doorstep eg Meath and Louth. Player like Mick Higgins and John Joe 0`Reilly were national icons. That Cavan team in the late 40s and early 50s was hugely admired and the team of that era. That team captured the countries attention. Christy Ring and Polo Final of 47 were the two GAA moments/personalities that captured the countries attention in the 40s and 50s.
6 Kerry 1929-1932 The first great proper Gaelic football team
7 Dublin 2011 -2017 A modern day classic,win more titles and further up the list they go.
8 Meath 1987 1988 - A legendary leinster team that conquered all before them. Their 4 games with Dublin is the beginnig of the modern professional GAA . After 91 we have live games sponsorship Sky showing games . This is the moment the GAA became modern, 21st century modern and very popular and even cool.
9 Mayo 1950 1951-In a golden period of gaelic footaball where you had strong Cavan Meath louth Kerry Dublin teams . An achievement that has been so hard to follow. The 50 51 Mayo left the toughest legacy to follow. The second greatest team to cross the shannon.
10 Tyrone 03 05 08/ Kerry 97 -09 - Joint tenth, I know Kerry couldnt beat Tyrone. But Kerry won 5 and any team that wins five means greatness. Tyrone where not the best team ever but where the most organised drilled football machine ever.
To do a top ten is difficult. And alot is down to personal choice. But kerry 75 -86 if you anyalsis in any sort of detail , they are the greatest. No debate. Down team of 60 61 was such great achievement and had such an impact on the way the game was played. And led to the emergence of Ulster football as the strongest most dymanic and forward thinking area for gaelic football in modern times. Down 60 and 61 are very strong choice for second. After that it gets difficlut. Still dont think Dublin are in the top 2 3 or 4 yet. But they could win more.
If they win 4 in a row. They have to go into top 3 .Win 5 they are the greatest. Thats an obvious fact for anyone who looks deeply at the history of gaelic football. The 5 in a row is the holy grail of Irish sport. Kerry couldnt do, Kilkenny couldnt do it and even Gareth Brook couldnt do it. It is this almost mythical sporting achievement. Any team who wins five in a row will have done the impossible in Irish sport. Its has never been done before. And when Kerry and kilkenny tryed to win 5 in a row in 1982 and 2010 finals respectively, you could sense the pressure on both teams in both finals was truly immense. Both teams cracked under the unique pressure of the pursuit of the magical five in a row.0 -
If Dublin weren't there, how many All-Irelands would Mayo have won by now?0
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You could argue Mayo should have beaten Dublin in those 3 AI?
If's and but's but they really should have won in 2013 and this year anyway0 -
The_Kew_Tour wrote: »You could argue Mayo should have beaten Dublin in those 3 AI?
If's and but's but they really should have won in 2013 and this year anyway
I've heard this more than once now and its baffling me. Why should they have won? They lost the battle (much like Sunday) when the game was a contest in the second half. Their goal was the only score they got from play in the second half in 2013 IIRR.
The only game Mayo can justifiably claim to have left behind them was the drawn game last year and even then they needed a last minute score to rescue a draw.
You can seemingly make anything possible with what ifs.0 -
If Dublin weren't there, how many All-Irelands would Mayo have won by now?
Eh..... none
And to correct an earlier post, kerry won 4 titles in the Noughties, 2000 is/was technically still in the nineties.
Interesting enough barroom debate but nothing much more than that. Impossible really to compare teams from different eras, for instance the teams from the nineties played a completely different game to now, let alone the teams from the 60s or 70s.
You can't really be definitive, but it can be enjoyable to remember great teams from the past. For instance in 20 years time, I'd imagine this Mayo side will be remembered fondly by many. Perhaps another discussion would be 'Are Mayo the best side never to win an All Ireland'?0 -
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corny wrote:I've heard this more than once now and its baffling me. Why should they have won? They lost the battle (much like Sunday) when the game was a contest in the second half. Their goal was the only score they got from play in the second half in 2013 IIRR.
Mayo should regret 2012.
I never felt worried in 2013 at all. It was close on the scoreboard but that was about it Imo
Sunday was far closer imo. I was worried for most of it.0 -
I do think this Dublin team is one of the greatest ever, for many reasons, and that they will probably do 5 in a row.
However, I also think that if this exact Dublin side were around ten years ago it would be a different story. They would still be a great side and would win some titles, but I can easily see the Tyrone, Kerry and Armagh teams of the early to mid 2000's beating them in crunch games.
Repeatedly now Dublin have only just scraped over the line against Kerry and Mayo sides that simply aren't as good as some of the teams mentioned. Mayo stood toe to toe with them but 2005 Tyrone would have brought just as much energy and physicality but allied to a far greater scoring threat than Moran and O'Connor. Kerry also had that scoring threat, defenders who could cope with the fast and mobile Dublin forwards, and importantly had a lot of cute hoors who would have seen out those tight games instead of losing by a point every time.
I think Dublin have changed the game a little, there were always teams that were the best in the country, the problem now is that Dublin don't have the best 15, they have the best 30, I genuinely think any of their subs would be a guaranteed starter on any other team in the country. The extremely high level of quality across so deep a squad gives them options and an edge in games that is very hard to compete with. But they are beatable and I think a lot of those other great sides would beat them, so if the criteria is who would beat who its hard to call them the greatest team ever.
Of course, it must also be noted that this Dublin side getting repeatedly challenged by other top sides would only make them a better team as well.0 -
The_Kew_Tour wrote: »You could argue Mayo should have beaten Dublin in those 3 AI?
If's and but's but they really should have won in 2013 and this year anyway
But they didn't. Mayo played 10 matches this summer and were ahead at the end of normal time in just two of them. By contrast Dublin have lost just two matches in seven years. Dublin and Mayo have met six times in the last five seasons and Mayo have won none. That says enough about the merits of the teams.
As for "they should have won this year"? Really? Dublin scored 11 points from played in the second half, Mayo scored 4. They'd have been lucky to win when you consider that context.0 -
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I don't remember Down of the 1960s or teams from that era so won't comment. But I vividly remember the Kerry team of the 1970s/80s and would put them ahead of Dublin without a doubt on the basis of their unlikely number of brilliant individuals as laid out by another poster. The game has changed in the sense that Ciaran Kilkenny is now attracting praise for "possessions" ninety yards from goal with no pressure to be constructive. It is difficult to know how good he might be in a role such as that played by Pat Spillane back in the day.
One reservation was raised regarding the standard of Dublin's opposition in Leinster which is fair and reasonable. That said, Kerry enjoyed a handy enough run at stages too when they were winning four in a row. I think it is difficult enough to put loads of titles back to back in hugely competitive environments anyway.
A team which deserves mention among great teams if we can get away from the notion that you need multiple titles to apply is Donegal 2012. They genuinely re-envisaged how the game should be played - even though it was not necessarily pretty always - and beat the champions of three of the previous four years along the way. And came back in 2014 to beat the 2013 champions.0 -
Some good comments sonny678, but you have one glaring omission. Granted, you say modern era, but you have a Kerry team from the 20's as "the first real gaelic football team". I'll insert my bias and say that the Wexford team from 1913-1918 was the first real powerhouse. Contested 6 AI finals in a row, winning 4 of them. I obviously never saw them play, but reading about them and their achievements in what was a tumultuous time in the country would give you pride to see what your forefathers accomplished. there are some really good books out there of GAA games at that time. The bloodied field is an excellent book that discusses mainly the Tipperary and Dublin team of 1920, but delves into the whole situation of the time.
Of the Wexford team, the likes of Jim Byrne, Sean O Kennedy, Ned Wheeler, Aidan Doyle are all legendary names in Wexford as a result of their feats.
I have no doubt that the standard back then is no where at all near the standard now, but you can only compare teams of their dominance of their period. at that time, that Wexford team were the standard bearers and had great battles with Kerry, Dublin and Tipperary in particular over those years and after.0 -
bucketybuck wrote: »Of course, it must also be noted that this Dublin side getting repeatedly challenged by other top sides would only make them a better team as well.
Exactly. They win multiple AI titles despite the dearth of stiff challenges at provincial level.0 -
The Wexford team of the 1910's being criminally overlooked. 4 in a row and that after losing the previous two finals.0
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Cody's Kilkenny were the greatest team ever
Have they burned all the hurls in Meath yet Sonny?0 -
They're excellent.
In some ways it's a shame Donegal bust the bubble in 2014 and a departure from from that all swaggering, all out attack team to a cuter, more sensible model.
Had they continued in that vein they'd probably be the best I'd seen. As it is, I'd still have Tyrone of the noughties ahead of them. But who cares, the ultimate in pub talk nonsense these debates. Everything always has to be the 'best ever'.
There's plenty more juice left in the Dublin tank. Just enjoy them while they're there and see where they end up at the end.0 -
bucketybuck wrote: »I do think this Dublin team is one of the greatest ever, for many reasons, and that they will probably do 5 in a row.
However, I also think that if this exact Dublin side were around ten years ago it would be a different story. They would still be a great side and would win some titles, but I can easily see the Tyrone, Kerry and Armagh teams of the early to mid 2000's beating them in crunch games.
Repeatedly now Dublin have only just scraped over the line against Kerry and Mayo sides that simply aren't as good as some of the teams mentioned. Mayo stood toe to toe with them but 2005 Tyrone would have brought just as much energy and physicality but allied to a far greater scoring threat than Moran and O'Connor. Kerry also had that scoring threat, defenders who could cope with the fast and mobile Dublin forwards, and importantly had a lot of cute hoors who would have seen out those tight games instead of losing by a point every time.
I think Dublin have changed the game a little, there were always teams that were the best in the country, the problem now is that Dublin don't have the best 15, they have the best 30, I genuinely think any of their subs would be a guaranteed starter on any other team in the country. The extremely high level of quality across so deep a squad gives them options and an edge in games that is very hard to compete with. But they are beatable and I think a lot of those other great sides would beat them, so if the criteria is who would beat who its hard to call them the greatest team ever.
Of course, it must also be noted that this Dublin side getting repeatedly challenged by other top sides would only make them a better team as well.
You could argue that Kerry team lost all the tight games in the noughties against Armagh/Tyrone. Armagh 02, Tyrone 05 and 08 were games Kerry lost in the melting pot.0 -
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You could argue that Kerry team lost all the tight games in the noughties against Armagh/Tyrone. Armagh 02, Tyrone 05 and 08 were games Kerry lost in the melting pot.
You could argue it, but those were games against some of the other greatest teams of all time so a few defeats is not unreasonable. The more pertinent fact is that they won 5 titles between 2000 and 2009, they clearly knew how to win big games as well.0 -
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So many counties are going through a bad time. This means the competition is weaker.
This point is undeniable.
However the inference is that competition is weaker because they those counties you mention have become weaker.
To some extent that is true.
Meath and Kildare are two interesting examples.
I'm fairly sure that football in these counties has been negatively affected by the 'suburbanisation' of their big population centres - Ashbourne, Ratoath, Maynooth, Naas turning into sattelite towns of Dublin. If nothing else, it means that a lot of parents in these communities are commuting long distances to work, and dont have the same time to commit to volunteering as you would find say in Stillorgan or Marino, or on the other hand Castleblayney or Castlebar. Second, you see as many Dublin flags as Meath flags now when you drive through Meath. That just didnt happen 30 years ago.
Over the history of the GAA - 5 counties have won All Irelands consistently. Kerry, Dublin, Cork, Galway, Meath.
Of the counties you mentioned - Cork, Meath and Galway are really the only ones that have been a powerful football force over the lifetime of the GAA. Cork and Galway won All irelands in 6 different decades; Meath in 5 different decades. In Meaths case; arguably they had the greatest ever manager in GAA, without whom they would have 3 all irelands rather than 7. In Cork and Galways case - arguably it is harder now to be a achieve success as a dual county than it was in the past.
The other counties had a period of dominance when they had a particularly strong team, but it wasnt sustained or ongoing. They might come again; but the norm is that they arent football powerhouses.
Arguably we have seen that this decade with Donegal. Last decade with Tyrone.
So in sum
- I believe in the past, when a county had, by random selection, a particularly great team - such as Roscommon in the 1940s or Down in the 1960s - then they stood a good chance of winning a brace of All Irelands. That is more difficult now; with Mayo being a prime example; they would be lucky now to get one.
- Traditional powerhouse counties such as Galway and Cork are probably sufferring for not specialising. I might be wrong there.
- There are a lot of moving parts here. All the talk of splitting up Dublin doesnt change the fact that is not just Dublin - Kerry Mayo and Tyrone have made up the other 3 semifinalists most years this decade; and I would say are odds on to do the same next year.0
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