Christian parents 'to sue school' coz boy in son's class was allowed to wear dress

Billy86 · 11-09-2017 09:47PM

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

You want it both ways, you want other posters to have hard scientific evidence but you can quote someone's feelings on it.

Actually, as well as the input of transgender people themselves I repeatedly given this link which cites numerous scientific studies on it that didn't come from The Heritage Foundation - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Brain_structure

noaddedsugar · 11-09-2017 09:48PM

Nermal wrote: »

Good. I don't want to 'deconstruct' a fundamental aspect of our biology and something central to how we have organised our society for thousands of years.

Biology and gender are not the same thing. Sex is biology.

Billy86 · 11-09-2017 09:50PM

noaddedsugar wrote: »

I really think you have chosen a bad example there. Intersex and transgender are not the same. Intersex organisations in the UK have been trying to put distance between themselves and trans organisations. Intersex is a biological anomaly, trans is a feeling.

Apologies, looking back quickly it wasn't clear from how I formatted it that those were three separate posts, and the person who posted the intersex part has their username/label/sig/whatever it is on reddit as "hi_im_leigh Transgender-Pansexual-30 yo pre-everything girl"

noaddedsugar · 11-09-2017 09:55PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Apologies, looking back quickly it wasn't clear from how I formatted it that those were three separate posts, and the person who posted the intersex part has their username/label/sig/whatever it is on reddit as "hi_im_leigh Transgender-Pansexual-30 yo pre-everything girl"

Ok so to break it down it looks like the first one is intersex, something completely different to trans. The second had a hormonal imbalance, it would be interesting to see how they would have felt if they had that hormone imbalance corrected before transing. The third liked 'girl things', if we get rid of 'boy things' and 'girl things', they could in theory live a very happy life in their male body.

_Kaiser_ · 11-09-2017 09:55PM

noaddedsugar wrote: »

Biology and gender are not the same thing. Sex is biology.

I disagree... by definition you are born male or female. There is no third/other choice.

You may at some point feel that you identify more with the opposite gender, and take a variety of steps to reinforce that and no issue there whatsoever, but it doesn't change biology or indeed history.

Shenshen · 11-09-2017 09:58PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I disagree... by definition you are born male or female. There is no third/other choice.

You may at some point feel that you identify more with the opposite gender, and take a variety of steps to reinforce that and no issue there whatsoever, but it doesn't change biology or indeed history.

What do you feel with, if not with the biological construct that's your body?

noaddedsugar · 11-09-2017 09:58PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I disagree... by definition you are born male or female. There is no third/other choice.

You may at some point feel that you identify more with the opposite gender, and take a variety of steps to reinforce that and no issue there whatsoever, but it doesn't change biology or indeed history.

Yes I agree you are born male or female, there is no other choice, that is biology, that is sex. Sex is absolute, you cannot identify your way out of it. Nothing to do with gender whatsoever. I am not suggesting we get rid of sex at all. I am suggesting we get rid of gender which is girls wear pink, boys wear blue.

Billy86 · 11-09-2017 10:00PM

noaddedsugar wrote: »

Yes I agree you are born male or female, there is no other choice, that is biology, that is sex. Sex is absolute, you cannot identify your way out of it. Nothing to do with gender whatsoever. I am not suggesting we get rid of sex at all. I am suggesting we get rid of gender which is girls wear pink, boys wear blue.

Hats off to you on this by the way, definitely some food for thought as to how much transgenderism is related to to societal boy/girl constructs. I'm curious if there's anything you'd recommend reading further into on it? It definitely would bare some consideration at least.

mzungu · 11-09-2017 10:01PM

noaddedsugar wrote: »

We are not born with male and female brains, there is no innate gender,gender roles are a made up construct. https://www.transgendertrend.com/born-in-the-wrong-body/

I would not subscribe to the post-modern "there are no differences between men and women" line of thinking. There are noticeable differences between our brains. Yes, gender roles like boys liking blue and girls liking pink is all made up, but biology does play a big role in other areas. Toy choices in infants are suggested to be influenced by both "biological and developmental-environmental components". Studies with monkeys show that "the males preferred to play with wheeled toys, such as dumper trucks, over plush dolls, while female monkeys played with both kinds of toys." Not everything can be explained as being a social construct, that kind of thinking is routed in the mostly discredited yammerings of Foucault, Halperin, Butler and their comrades.

_Kaiser_ · 11-09-2017 10:07PM

noaddedsugar wrote: »

Yes I agree you are born male or female, there is no other choice, that is biology, that is sex. Sex is absolute, you cannot identify your way out of it. Nothing to do with gender whatsoever. I am not suggesting we get rid of sex at all. I am suggesting we get rid of gender which is girls wear pink, boys wear blue.

I don't see the need. While some may decide/feel/realise they identify more as the opposite gender (and no harm there), I don't see a reason to eliminate/ignore the real and valid differences between the two just to accommodate this minority.

Shenshen · 11-09-2017 10:08PM

mzungu wrote: »

I would not subscribe to the post-modern "there are no differences between men and women" line of thinking. There are noticeable differences between our brains. Yes, gender roles like boys liking blue and girls liking pink is all made up, but biology does play a big role in other areas.Toy choices in infants are suggested to be influenced by both "biological and developmental-environmental components". Studies with monkeys show that "the males preferred to play with wheeled toys, such as dumper trucks, over plush dolls, while female monkeys played with both kinds of toys." Not everything can be explained as being a social construct, that kind of thinking is routed in mostly discredited yammering's of Foucault, Halperin, Butler and their comrades.

That's an interesting coincidence - I was just reading this article on the very subject : http://www.spektrum.de/news/wie-unterschiedlich-ticken-maenner-und-frauen/1500183?utm_source=zon&utm_medium=teaser&utm_content=feature&utm_campaign=ZON_KOOP
It is German, google might give you a decent translation. Condensed, it agrees that there are differences between males and females, physically and psychologically.
However, it also looks more closely at the details of those differences as compiled in a meta-study published in 2005 (http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2005-11115-001), and finds that for the most part, the differences, while statistically recognisable, are minute, while the overlaps between genders are vast.

And physically, we cannot tell a male brain from a female brain apart from guessing that the slightly larger brains may on average belong to the slightly larger bodies.

Shenshen · 11-09-2017 10:09PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I don't see the need. While some may decide/feel/realise they identify more as the opposite gender (and no harm there), I don't see a reason to eliminate/ignore the real and valid differences between the two just to accommodate this minority.

And you feel that wearing clothes associated with the opposite gender eliminates that difference?

Annasopra · 11-09-2017 10:15PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

Arguably it's more damaging - one can leave the priesthood without any long lasting effects.

If one were to undergo gender reassignment surgery[especially at that age] and its attendant hormonal treatment, the effects are longer lasting, and more difficult to reverse.

And that's before adding the complication of doing it before/during puberty, undermining the hormonal process by which a child becomes adult.

What the? No 6 year old child has sex change surgery. You are talking absolute bunkum here.

Annasopra · 11-09-2017 10:18PM

bilston wrote: »

Maybe I've missed something, but how can a 6 year old decide to be transgender?

A 6 year old can express the view that he or she identifies as the opposite gender.

Annasopra · 11-09-2017 10:20PM

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Are you sure about that?

GP probed for giving child, 12, gender-change hormones

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-41213534

That is not surgery

_Kaiser_ · 11-09-2017 10:20PM

Shenshen wrote: »

And you feel that wearing clothes associated with the opposite gender eliminates that difference?

I think it's inappropriate to support such a thing in young children who have no clue of the concept of gender/sexuality in the context being discussed here among adults.

It may just be a phase, or it may be something deeper, but either way allowing a young boy to wear a dress is exposing them to more harm than good by virtue of the reality we live in where such behaviour isn't normal at this point.

Do what you want as an adult or teen aware of the consequences, but we're talking (or were) about young children here.

I do find it interesting though that with the rise of social media and the ability of anyone and everyone to have their "15 minutes", that "we" have somehow decided in the last 5 years or so that these fundamental ideas and structures that have defined us for hundreds and thousands of years are now suddenly "wrong" and need to be changed.

Worse, I find it disturbing that those not on-board with this idea (or not actively advocating it) are often made out to be dinosaurs, or sexist/phobic or whatever other term is used. It's ironic that despite the originally well-intentioned concepts of promoting tolerance and understanding behind these movements.. they've somehow morphed into the complete opposite.

Irish Guitarist · 11-09-2017 10:20PM

Why is that the people who take it at face value that a six year boy who has no business knowing anything about sex 'identifies as a girl' and chose to wear the dress don't believe the other child was traumatised? In both cases all that's in the article is the parents side of the story and both stories are equally far fetched.

Annasopra · 11-09-2017 10:26PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

https://pjmedia.com/parenting/2017/07/08/pediatrician-debunks-junk-science-behind-obsession-with-transgender-youth/

Ah yes. A tiny far right fringe group that has no mainstream support and is ideologically driven by homophobia and transphobia. Hmmmm.

ceadaoin. · 11-09-2017 10:29PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

That is not surgery

It's almost as bad. A child given cross sex hormones at that age will be left sterile and their growth and development would be seriously impacted. It's not exactly a decision we should let 12 year olds make and the fact that a medical professional proceeded with that treatment is shocking.

kylith · 11-09-2017 10:29PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Again all very well saying that as an adult.. but in a primary school environment outside of those cultures , it's not "normal" and will make the child a target among their peers.

Only if they are taught so by their parents. If a kid goes home from school and tells their parent that John went to school in a dress and the parent's reaction is 'OK' then the child learns that a boy wearing a dress is no big deal.

Children are not born with the idea that Boys wear X, Girls wear Y, they are programmed with those ideas by their families and society.

noaddedsugar · 11-09-2017 10:29PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I don't see the need. While some may decide/feel/realise they identify more as the opposite gender (and no harm there), I don't see a reason to eliminate/ignore the real and valid differences between the two just to accommodate this minority.

I'm not suggesting that we ignore the real and valid differences. For instance women can get pregnant and give birth, males are physically stronger, these are real biological differences. I don't think that women wearing dresses and make up is a real and valid difference. There is no biological reason a man can't do this too and remain a man.

Annasopra · 11-09-2017 10:30PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

It's almost as bad. A child given cross sex hormones at that age will be left sterile and their growth and development would be seriously impacted. It's not exactly a decision we should let 12 year olds make and the fact that a medical professional proceeded with that treatment is shocking.

In fairness the medical profession isnt exactly doing this routinely either. It is 1 Doctor.

_Kaiser_ · 11-09-2017 10:31PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Ah yes. A tiny far right fringe group that has no mainstream support and is ideologically driven by homophobia and transphobia. Hmmmm.

Why is it that anyone questioning or disputing the "new reality" is immediately "far-right", phobic or other such nonsense?

Hmmmmm?

I for one am tired of being lectured on what I should/shouldn't believe on any given "controversial" issue. That's not to say I'm necessarily right, but that I'll make my own mind up without this new tactic of being bullied into it by "progressive" elements.

If you want to win more people to your viewpoint, it's probably a better idea to not start with insulting them or their intelligence.

Just saying!

looksee · 11-09-2017 10:32PM

I can't help thinking that there are probably very few girls in the school wearing dresses, not all the time anyway. They could come in in trousers or skirts and no-one would think anything of it. A more relaxed approach would be 'you can wear your dress at home, but you will be better in trousers at school, like (Jane) wears. I think at 6 it is making a huge deal out of nothing much.

DickSwiveller · 11-09-2017 10:35PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Ah yes. A tiny far right fringe group that has no mainstream support and is ideologically driven by homophobia and transphobia. Hmmmm.

"No mainstream support"

I support facts over fashion. You are gullible. I can't help you.

spoonerhead · 11-09-2017 10:39PM

Anyone who believes in God can't be mentally right.

So on that evidence they shouldn't have a case, religion should be extinct at this stage! Educate yourselves you Neanderthals

Sweetemotion · 11-09-2017 10:50PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

In fairness the medical profession isnt exactly doing this routinely either. It is 1 Doctor.

It's not just one doctor.

Another 12 year old given hormones after being diagnosed by a doctor.

DickSwiveller · 11-09-2017 10:52PM

spoonerhead wrote: »

Anyone who believes in God can't be mentally right.

So on that evidence they shouldn't have a case, religion should be extinct at this stage! Educate yourselves you Neanderthals

What a well thought out and reasoned argument. Profound.

_Whimsical_ · 11-09-2017 10:58PM

looksee wrote: »

I can't help thinking that there are probably very few girls in the school wearing dresses, not all the time anyway. They could come in in trousers or skirts and no-one would think anything of it. A more relaxed approach would be 'you can wear your dress at home, but you will be better in trousers at school, like (Jane) wears. I think at 6 it is making a huge deal out of nothing much.

I fully agree. As you say wearing a dress is no longer the only statement of femininity. I'm sure lots of girls at 6 might only wear a dress for a special occasion but prefer leggings and shorts etc for everyday. Your son can have longer hair these days and no one bats an eye if he's wearing a pink shirt as lots of adult men do too now.

There's no need to single out your 6 year old by sending him into school in a dress even if you are absolutely convinced he has gender issues, it's so much easier to say "wear your jeans/leggings and your red tshirt, like x girl does". For that reason I would be wary of parents who'd be insistent on doing it at so tender an age and stage. If he wants to do it at home fair enough, don't pass comment or expect when he's singing the Frozen theme that he's actively choosing a life of medications, operations, prejudice, life long hormones. If you're really intent on letting the child come to their ultimate expression of self give them the time and space to play and explore life without social or physical consequences.

mzungu · 11-09-2017 10:59PM

Shenshen wrote: »

That's an interesting coincidence - I was just reading this article on the very subject : http://www.spektrum.de/news/wie-unterschiedlich-ticken-maenner-und-frauen/1500183?utm_source=zon&utm_medium=teaser&utm_content=feature&utm_campaign=ZON_KOOP
It is German, google might give you a decent translation. Condensed, it agrees that there are differences between males and females, physically and psychologically.
However, it also looks more closely at the details of those differences as compiled in a meta-study published in 2005 (http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2005-11115-001), and finds that for the most part, the differences, while statistically recognisable, are minute, while the overlaps between genders are vast.

And physically, we cannot tell a male brain from a female brain apart from guessing that the slightly larger brains may on average belong to the slightly larger bodies.

Aye it is an interesting read, thank you for sharing. I think it was based off the same study as the one that I posted earlier. No doubt we are more alike than we are different, but there are still differences between both in a general sense. A lot of that we still have not found out yet. That does not mean one is better than the other or any of that kind of bullcrap, just that we have differences.

But if the blank slate "there are no differences" line of thinking was true, then you could in theory raise a boy (who was not transgender) as a girl with no negative consequences. Take the case of David Reimer, his penis was destroyed at birth in a botched circumcision and was promptly reassigned as a girl. After being raised as a girl he instinctively knew something was amiss, suffered severe depression, then he assigned back to being male at 15 but later committed suicide.

There have been other cases where boys were raised as girls (they suffered depression too) but they usually started copping on early enough that something was not right and started to live as male. If there was no difference between men or women, then you would not see those kinds of problems. A boy could be raised as a girl and vice versa with no negative impact. But that doesn't happen, it really only works if one is transgender.

There are innate differences that make us what we are, despite what self referential ivory tower gender theorists would try have people believe.

Christian parents 'to sue school' coz boy in son's class was allowed to wear dress

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