Christian parents 'to sue school' coz boy in son's class was allowed to wear dress

Shenshen · 11-09-2017 09:16PM

anna080 wrote: »

Ah would ya ever stop. When I was four I wanted to be an ambulance. Four year olds haven't notion. They don't understand permanency. If a four year old's parent dies they don't understand and think she's coming back. Four year olds can't make decisions like that. Like I said, when you're an adult, knock yourself out- but listening to your child at four and five that they are trapped in the wrong body- and acting on that in a way that will have consequences in the future- is stupidity and recklessness of the highest order.

What future consequences? All the article said is that the boy was wearing a dress to school? Surely most boys would be able to survive not wearing trousers relatively unscathed and without permanent damage?

DickSwiveller · 11-09-2017 09:18PM

Shenshen wrote: »

What future consequences? All the article said is that the boy was wearing a dress to school? Surely most boys would be able to survive not wearing trousers relatively unscathed and without permanent damage?

It also said he identified as a girl.

Billy86 · 11-09-2017 09:20PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Exactly... but the amount of virtue-signalling going on in this thread is truly disturbing if these views actually carry over into Reality

A child of that age (as you rightly point out) hasn't a clue about such concepts, and rightly so to be honest - let them enjoy their innocence as long as they can. Trying to project adult concepts of sexuality onto a child is just irresponsible and frankly wrong... they're not capable of understanding it, and nor should they have to.

When or if they make such a choice when they're old enough to understand such concepts then there's no issue whatsoever.. but using innocent kids as a means to push an agenda or make a "statement" is a wholly different matter.

I take it you'll be showing us where the parents forced this on the child, as opposed to them wanting to themselves either from going through a phase or like plenty of other examples of transgender children who have since grown up and continue to identify as such that have been provided to you?

mzungu · 11-09-2017 09:20PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Exactly... but the amount of virtue-signalling going on in this thread is truly disturbing if these views actually carry over into Reality

A child of that age (as you rightly point out) hasn't a clue about such concepts, and rightly so to be honest - let them enjoy their innocence as long as they can. Trying to project adult concepts of sexuality onto a child is just irresponsible and frankly wrong... they're not capable of understanding it, and nor should they have to.

When or if they make such a choice when they're old enough to understand such concepts then there's no issue whatsoever.. but using innocent kids as a means to push an agenda or make a "statement" is a wholly different matter.

I agree, when it is a clear cut case of kids being guided into it by parents then that is completely wrong. No arguments there. However, as we know that gender dysphoria does exist, some kids will be transgender, no matter what their parents believe.

noaddedsugar · 11-09-2017 09:21PM

Billy86 wrote: »

There are grown up transgender people here who disagree with you and have had an idea of it since they were as young as four years of age, I think they're more of an authority on the matter than you or I are, no? https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/35v1t8/i_knew_i_was_transgender_when/

And that's a big reason why suicide rates are so high among young transgender people - 30% suicide attempt rate and 42% self harm rate, that would be the equivalent of about 18 children in this picture trying to kill themselves and 25 self harming. The example I gave earlier being the actress Laverne Cox from Orange in the New Black trying to kill themselves at 11 years of age because of bullying over not 'acting like a boy'.

Surely if people are trying to kill themselves because they are seen to be 'not acting like a boy' the answer is to change what it means to 'act like a boy'. We are not born with male and female brains, there is no innate gender,gender roles are a made up construct. https://www.transgendertrend.com/born-in-the-wrong-body/

It makes much more sense to deconstruct these gender roles that as you say are proving harmful than to pump people full of hormones and to lop off pieces of their body. Instead what the trans movement seems to be doing is reinforcing these gender roles and making them even more rigid causing imo even more harm than good.

So what if a boy wants to wear a dress, likes make up, likes pink, likes whatever he likes. None of these things can ever change the fact that he is biologically a boy. They are stuck as a boy no matter what so lets broaden the bandwidth of what it means to boy. The same with girls.

Billy86 · 11-09-2017 09:21PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

It also said he identified as a girl.

Here's the scientific studies and research you were looking for earlier by the way (again) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Brain_structure

DickSwiveller · 11-09-2017 09:22PM

https://pjmedia.com/parenting/2017/07/08/pediatrician-debunks-junk-science-behind-obsession-with-transgender-youth/

_Kaiser_ · 11-09-2017 09:23PM

Shenshen wrote: »

What future consequences? All the article said is that the boy was wearing a dress to school? Surely most boys would be able to survive not wearing trousers relatively unscathed and without permanent damage?

Again, you're looking at the situation as an adult with a particular viewpoint on the issue.

As a young child in school, like it or not, the little lad in question will be treated as a pariah by his peers who (as I've said) don't understand the concepts of sexuality/gender-questioning and so on... all they'll see is that he's "different" and treat him accordingly - at a minimum isolation and teasing, at worse physical bullying.

Willingly exposing a child of that age to that because of a misguided sense of letting them express themselves, or pushing your own agenda/virtue-signalling through them, is wholly irresponsible IMO.

Shenshen · 11-09-2017 09:23PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

It also said he identified as a girl.

And a poster here said they identified as an ambulance when a child.

The child may grow out of it, or may want to continue enjoy wearing dresses. What is so upsetting about that?

When I was growing up, I used to play with a girl who I'm in retrospect sure identified as a boy. She always had very short hair, never wore a dress, got into lots of fights (black eyes, bloody noses, that kind of things), and when we were play-acting she would always insist on playing a male part.
I just for the life of me can't imagine that even back then in the mid-70s anyone would have had any issue with her behaviour. I don't know that anyone ever did.
Yet if a boy chooses a female identity (even just possibly for a short while), that's child abuse?

Billy86 · 11-09-2017 09:25PM

noaddedsugar wrote: »

Surely if people are trying to kill themselves because they are seen to be 'not acting like a boy' the answer is to change what it means to 'act like a boy'. We are not born with male and female brains, there is no innate gender,gender roles are a made up construct. https://www.transgendertrend.com/born-in-the-wrong-body/

It makes much more sense to deconstruct these gender roles that as you say are proving harmful than to pump people full of hormones and to lop off pieces of their body. Instead what the trans movement seems to be doing is reinforcing these gender roles and making them even more rigid causing imo even more harm than good.

So what if a boy wants to wear a dress, likes make up, likes pink, likes whatever he likes. None of these things can ever change the fact that he is biologically a boy. They are stuck as a boy no matter what so lets broaden the bandwidth of what it means to boy. The same with girls.

I actually agree pretty much completely about gender deconstruction (which we've thankfully seen a fair bit of in recent times though there is much more still to be done, and for all any of us know that is all that this case is - though this thread also shows the sheer resistance it faces from some), but there has been a good bit of scientific work into the male/female brain with relation to transgenderism that shows differences in the male and female brain (see post above).

Shenshen · 11-09-2017 09:26PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Again, you're looking at the situation as an adult with a particular viewpoint on the issue.

As a young child in school, like it or not, the little lad in question will be treated as a pariah by his peers who (as I've said) don't understand the concepts of sexuality/gender-questioning and so on... all they'll see is that he's "different" and treat him accordingly - at a minimum isolation and teasing, at worse physical bullying.

Willingly exposing a child of that age to that because of a misguided sense of letting them express themselves, or pushing your own agenda/virtue-signalling through them, is wholly irresponsible IMO.

I do wonder why it's such a taboo for a boy to wear a dress.
And I wonder if such arguments were brought forward when women first started wearing trousers in the Western world.

_Kaiser_ · 11-09-2017 09:26PM

Billy86 wrote: »

I take it you'll be showing us where the parents forced this on the child, as opposed to them wanting to themselves either from going through a phase or like plenty of other examples of transgender children who have since grown up and continue to identify as such that have been provided to you?

I have no intention in getting involved in a pointless debate on an issue where the aim of the game for the most part seems to be to show how enlightened you are.

These are young children we're talking about, who are unaware of the concepts being talked about (and rightly so IMO). Regardless of your own personal feelings as an adult, there needs to be an acknowledgement of the REALITY of the situation and environment that's being talked about.

Billy86 · 11-09-2017 09:27PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

https://pjmedia.com/parenting/2017/07/08/pediatrician-debunks-junk-science-behind-obsession-with-transgender-youth/

You've provided a link to a quack website, that does nothing to show that significant research has been done into the matter and makes a mockery of your 'anti-science' remark from earlier. Needless to say I am entirely unsurprised.

11-09-2017 09:30PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

https://pjmedia.com/parenting/2017/07/08/pediatrician-debunks-junk-science-behind-obsession-with-transgender-youth/

Given the article this is talking about http://dailysignal.com/2017/07/03/im-pediatrician-transgender-ideology-infiltrated-field-produced-large-scale-child-abuse/ is on a site made by The Heritage Foundation I'd take it all with a bit of a pinch of salt. Not to discredit this Pediatrician in particular but just in general bear in mind who runs the site.

EDIT: Just checked the "peer reviewed" paper she wrote, surprise surprise it was published in a conservative journal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

And no this isn't a witch hunt against conservatives, I'd say the same thing if it was published in a deliberately liberal leaning journal. As a physicist though (in training :P) I value proper research in respected journals, my five-minute digging doesn't instil much confidence.

kylith · 11-09-2017 09:32PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

A child of that age (as you rightly point out) hasn't a clue about such concepts, and rightly so to be honest - let them enjoy their innocence as long as they can. Trying to project adult concepts of sexuality onto a child is just irresponsible and frankly wrong... they're not capable of understanding it, and nor should they have to.

Fair enough, but if it makes the kid happy to wear a skirt, let him wear a skirt. The World Wars were fought by men who were routinely dressed in pink and in frocks. Polynesian boys and men wear sarongs, scotsmen wear kilts. Who cares if a boy wears a dress?

Nermal · 11-09-2017 09:33PM

So the parents aren't suing, and their child was being asked to make-believe that this boy was a really a girl.

Maybe we should change the thread title?

noaddedsugar wrote: »

We are not born with male and female brains, there is no innate gender,gender roles are a made up construct. https://www.transgendertrend.com/born-in-the-wrong-body/

Billy86 wrote: »

Here's the scientific studies and research you were looking for earlier by the way (again) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Brain_structure

It gives me great pleasure to see this cabal of fruitcakes arguing with each other. The more we encourage it, the less they can weaken our society.

Billy86 · 11-09-2017 09:34PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I have no intention in getting involved in a pointless debate on an issue where the aim of the game for the most part seems to be to show how enlightened you are.

These are young children we're talking about, who are unaware of the concepts being talked about (and rightly so IMO). Regardless of your own personal feelings as an adult, there needs to be an acknowledgement of the REALITY of the situation and environment that's being talked about.

That'll be a no then? So why did you go ahead and asusme this was being forced on the child by the parents when there are plenty of examples of transgender people knowing they didn't fit their assigned 'gender roles' from as young as four years of age? How are the suicide and self harm rates so exponentially higher among transgender children and teens if they are completely unaware of these concepts of not fitting their gender roles?

I have literally already shown you transgender adults saying they didn't feel like a boy/girl from younger ages than this kid, not my feelings - actual transgender people, who are clearly much more of an authority on the REALITY of the matter. Here you go again, I'll actually quote since I don't think you clicked on the link provided to you.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/35v1t8/i_knew_i_was_transgender_when/
"I knew I wasn't a boy around 4. Hell my sister used to introduce me as her little sister. I really looked like a girl but I've also got an intersex condition. I guess I knew I was trans* in Highschool. Maybe slightly before."

"I knew I was transgender when I was about 4-5 years old. I remember looking down in my pants and crying. I had no one to talk to and I was all alone... I tucked them because I hated how to bulged out and one day I put a bunch of cloth over it then smacked it repeatedly trying to flatten it out. I haven't seen a doctor about it but it's clear I caused substantial permanent damage (I was about 7 years old). My hormone levels preHRT were below "regular" and I imagine it may be due to this."

"There had been times before then that some femininity slipped through, of course...usually shamed by my dad for it, occasionally pinned against a wall, and there was the lipstick incident (1995, maybe '96) when he bent me over my bed and used a belt...so yeah, not a surprise that I kept that kind of thing hidden from everyone (including me, for a while in my late teens) until after he died, I was terrified that he'd find out."
[this poster is 27 so would have been 5-6 years old at the time]

Spider Web · 11-09-2017 09:36PM

Would a skirt even be flattering on a boy? I don't think the trousers comparison is like with like, as women's trousers are shaped differently to men's.

Tom Mann Centuria · 11-09-2017 09:37PM

roddy15 wrote: »

Given the article this is talking about http://dailysignal.com/2017/07/03/im-pediatrician-transgender-ideology-infiltrated-field-produced-large-scale-child-abuse/ is on a site made by The Heritage Foundation I'd take it all with a bit of a pinch of salt. Not to discredit this Pediatrician in particular but just in general bear in mind who runs the site.

EDIT: Just checked the "peer reviewed" paper she wrote, surprise surprise it was published in a conservative journal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

And no this isn't a witch hunt against conservatives, I'd say the same thing if it was published in a deliberately liberal leaning journal. As a physicist though (in training :P) I value proper research in respected journals, my five-minute digging doesn't instil much confidence.

It's a very good point, but I doubt it's any less robust than a link to a reddit thread, or any more or less relevant than linking a study who's youngest participants are 12 years old.

Shenshen · 11-09-2017 09:37PM

Spider Web wrote: »

Would a skirt even be flattering on a boy? I don't think the trousers comparison is like with like, as women's trousers are shaped differently to men's.

I'm pretty sure they are not, not for 8-year-olds.

noaddedsugar · 11-09-2017 09:39PM

Billy86 wrote: »

I actually agree pretty much completely about gender deconstruction (which we've thankfully seen a fair bit of in recent times though there is much more still to be done, and for all any of us know that is all that this case is - though this thread also shows the sheer resistance it faces from some), but there has been a good bit of scientific work into the male/female brain with relation to transgenderism that shows differences in the male and female brain (see post above).

I really don't think we have come anyway at all in deconstructing gender, I think we are moving in the opposite direction. It is very rare that you would read an article about a trans kid that doesn't involve silly gender things like 'likes dress, pink and dolls' as some kind of marker to show that they are actually a girl.

There was a program on bbc2 lately about gender in schools(the name escapes me) and it made me want to weep for my daughter, it was genuinely upsetting the views that girls had of themselves and that boys had of girls. The lack of ability of the boys to describe any emotion except anger. It is really troubling.

Billy86 · 11-09-2017 09:41PM

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

It's a very good point, but I doubt it's any less robust than a link to a reddit thread, or any more or less relevant than linking a study who's youngest participants are 12 years old.

I'm not sure how transgender people themselves are a poor authority on knowing when they as individuals noticed they were transgender and/or did not fit the male/female gender?

_Kaiser_ · 11-09-2017 09:42PM

kylith wrote: »

Fair enough, but if it makes the kid happy to wear a skirt, let him wear a skirt. The World Wars were fought by men who were routinely dressed in pink and in frocks. Polynesian boys and men wear sarongs, scotsmen wear kilts. Who cares if a boy wears a dress?

Again all very well saying that as an adult.. but in a primary school environment outside of those cultures , it's not "normal" and will make the child a target among their peers.

A compromise might be to allow them wear what they want at home and answering any questions they have and supporting them as best you can.

However, as a responsible parent you should never lose sight of the reality of the situation outside your home, and that by allowing your young son to arrive to school in a dress, you're in fact probably doing them more harm.

It might not be nice, it may not be right, but the real world often isn't.

11-09-2017 09:43PM

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

It's a very good point, but I doubt it's any less robust than a link to a reddit thread, or any more or less relevant than linking a study who's youngest participants are 12 years old.

Being on Reddit is irrelevant if the study is in a respected scientific journal I'll give it my time. The problem with these journals is they'll take anything that supports their view, in this case, a conservative agenda.

"On October 25, 2008 the AAPS website published an editorial implying that Barack Obama was using Neuro-linguistic Programming, "a covert form of hypnosis", to coerce people to vote for him in his 2008 presidential campaign."

Case in point. Don't give dodgy journals and sources your time that goes for liberal and conservative leaning. If the science is sound you shouldn't have to write articles on a Heritage Foundation site with your research in the AAPS journal.

Just to add that honestly, I haven't done research on this particular topic to back a viewpoint I just want to point out the flaws in sources that are being presented and urge people to look more deeply at the foundations and journals they get their research from.

Tom Mann Centuria · 11-09-2017 09:43PM

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm not sure how transgender people themselves are a poor authority on knowing when they as individuals noticed they were transgender and/or did not fit the male/female gender?

You want it both ways, you want other posters to have hard scientific evidence but you can quote someone's feelings on it.

Billy86 · 11-09-2017 09:44PM

noaddedsugar wrote: »

I really don't think we have come anyway at all in deconstructing gender, I think we are moving in the opposite direction. It is very rare that you would read an article about a trans kid that doesn't involve silly gender things like 'likes dress, pink and dolls' as some kind of marker to show that they are actually a girl.

There was a program on bbc2 lately about gender in schools(the name escapes me) and it made me want to weep for my daughter, it was genuinely upsetting the views that girls had of themselves and that boys had of girls. The lack of ability of the boys to describe any emotion except anger. It is really troubling.

Very interesting and food for thought alright!

I was thinking more along the lines of the metrosexuals and women getting ripped in gyms etc... it's barely a crack in the wall of course in the greater scheme, but still a very noticeable difference from times past. Maybe that's more of an adult thing that based with children though?

noaddedsugar · 11-09-2017 09:45PM

Billy86 wrote: »

That'll be a no then? So why did you go ahead and asusme this was being forced on the child by the parents when there are plenty of examples of transgender people knowing they didn't fit their assigned 'gender roles' from as young as four years of age? How are the suicide and self harm rates so exponentially higher among transgender children and teens if they are completely unaware of these concepts of not fitting their gender roles?

I have literally already shown you transgender adults saying they didn't feel like a boy/girl from younger ages than this kid, not my feelings - actual transgender people, who are clearly much more of an authority on the REALITY of the matter. Here you go again, I'll actually quote since I don't think you clicked on the link provided to you.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/35v1t8/i_knew_i_was_transgender_when/
"I knew I wasn't a boy around 4. Hell my sister used to introduce me as her little sister. I really looked like a girl but I've also got an intersex condition. I guess I knew I was trans* in Highschool. Maybe slightly before."

"I knew I was transgender when I was about 4-5 years old. I remember looking down in my pants and crying. I had no one to talk to and I was all alone... I tucked them because I hated how to bulged out and one day I put a bunch of cloth over it then smacked it repeatedly trying to flatten it out. I haven't seen a doctor about it but it's clear I caused substantial permanent damage (I was about 7 years old). My hormone levels preHRT were below "regular" and I imagine it may be due to this."

"There had been times before then that some femininity slipped through, of course...usually shamed by my dad for it, occasionally pinned against a wall, and there was the lipstick incident (1995, maybe '96) when he bent me over my bed and used a belt...so yeah, not a surprise that I kept that kind of thing hidden from everyone (including me, for a while in my late teens) until after he died, I was terrified that he'd find out."
[this poster is 27 so would have been 5-6 years old at the time]

I really think you have chosen a bad example there. Intersex and transgender are not the same. Intersex organisations in the UK have been trying to put distance between themselves and trans organisations. Intersex is a biological anomaly, trans is a feeling.

silverharp · 11-09-2017 09:45PM

Billy86 wrote: »

I agree that it's an extremely complex matter and must be highly confusing for young kids (not just those with the identity crisis but their classmates too), but the parents are not suing because they and their children are being forced to refer to little Tommy as 'Tommi' or 'her/she' (which they would argue limits their free speech and expression) but because a young boy wore a dress into school (which is an attempt to limit the freedom of speech and expression of someone else).

I dont agree with the parents choice to sue and if a kid changes their name that should be respected as well

Tom Mann Centuria · 11-09-2017 09:45PM

roddy15 wrote: »

Being on Reddit is irrelevant if the study is in a respected scientific journal I'll give it my time. The problem with these journals is they'll take anything that supports their view, in this case, a conservative agenda.

"On October 25, 2008 the AAPS website published an editorial implying that Barack Obama was using Neuro-linguistic Programming, "a covert form of hypnosis", to coerce people to vote for him in his 2008 presidential campaign."

Case in point. Don't give dodgy journals and sources your time that goes for liberal and conservative leaning. If the science is sound you shouldn't have to write articles on a Heritage Foundation site with your research in the AAPS journal.

The link to reddit isn't research at all. The study was a different link, and as I said, it's youngest participant is 12. Double the age of of the child in op.

Nermal · 11-09-2017 09:46PM

noaddedsugar wrote: »

I really don't think we have come anyway at all in deconstructing gender, I think we are moving in the opposite direction.

Good. I don't want to 'deconstruct' a fundamental aspect of our biology and something central to how we have organised our society for thousands of years.

Christian parents 'to sue school' coz boy in son's class was allowed to wear dress

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