Isn't multiculturalism great...

Baron Kurtz · 10-09-2017 01:41AM

Rewind a bit here. Did you get a lollipop too? This is important.

Charles Babbage · 10-09-2017 01:47AM

Diversity within culture is a good thing. Different cultures existing separately largely independent of each other is not a good thing. The OP mention people from quite different places and these will interact with him and with each other through the medium of a common Irish culture. If immigrant groups reach a critical mass where they no longer have to interact in an "Irish" way but rather according to the customs of another place then there is a problem.

jackofalltrades · 10-09-2017 01:57AM

Deleted User wrote: »

...today I brought my daughter to the playground to meet Slovakian friends with their kids. Also met my cousin and his African partner and their little daughter. After that, I went to my Turkish Muslim barber and to her delight he produced a lollipop.

And I thought, she'll grow up experiencing diversity and cultures that I could only dream of when I was a child in white Catholic Ireland in the late '70s and '80s. And it felt good.

Yeah that sounds like an example of integration rather than multiculturalism.
I'm guessing in all these examples communication occurred in English and these migrants have adopted to our cultural norms?

I'd consider multiculturalism to be where different cultures are held in the same esteem and exist side-by-side in a country.
There's a fairly obvious example of this in our country.
I doubt either the groups involved would consider it as a success story though.

AlekSmart · 10-09-2017 01:59AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah you're not angry at all at all...

Hope you insist on that for another few strident posts. I'm enjoying it anyway. Great day, and the night has taken a surprisingly amusing turn.

In 1970,Joe Ayoubi,was our art teacher in Denmark Street Tech,he was Black...I kid thee not (although he did drive a White :eek: VW Beetle

)
We also had a Hippy teacher,Mr de Brí as well as a Traditional Irish Musican as a Science Teacher in Micheál o hAluín.

It would appear that much angst derives not from your Irish background,but from your Kerry roots,specifically the SOUTH Kerry region.

An amusing turn for sure,as when one factors in the Peig Sayers, John O Donoghue's and Healy-Rae's,it becomes easier to see how humour,amusement and a love of "divilment",can often be carried as a trait without the bearer even realising it.

Perhaps,in the spirit of the OP,your Turkish Barber might pen an invitation for Turkish President Erdogan,to visit South kerry and sample some tea and delights (He's probably a bit old for a Lollipop ?)....as long as it did'nt annoy anybody

Who knows,he might get some integrationilist multiculturalistic ideas which could be brought back to Turkeye,thus bringing South Kerry's delights to a far broader church...oooops,perhaps not the best choice of termnology there.....I'll get my Fez and be off now....Slán agus Ciao

Barry Badrinath · 10-09-2017 01:59AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do you now? Is that the royal "we"? One appreciates it.

Well, it would include myself and the others who agreed with my post.... and of course yourself.

Hell, maybe Idris would even agree.

yesto24 · 10-09-2017 07:20AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd say review the tone of our posts...

That man is bothered. Meanwhile, I had an enjoyable day with my daughter and thought I'd share it. I particularly liked when the Turkish barber was trying to tell her how to pronounce his name. And I was trying to break it down for her. Wins would have been in the corner, getting sick...:)

You are the type of person who would have a black friend because they are black. You would show them off to show how great you are.
They wouldn't be your friend because you have things in common or because you get on well with them. No they are your friend because they are black and that is real racism.

10-09-2017 07:29AM

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Are you back drinking again Conor?

Ha! Aren't you the little charmer!

One of the most entertaining things about this forum is...you say "I had a nice day" and it just really seems to wind some people up.

10-09-2017 07:30AM

yesto24 wrote: »

You are the type of person who would have a black friend because they are black. You would show them off to show how great you are.
They wouldn't be your friend because you have things in common or because you get on well with them. No they are your friend because they are black and that is real racism.

Yes indeed. Good man. That must be it alright...

Samaris · 10-09-2017 07:38AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes indeed. Good man. That must be it alright...

Yes Conor, you are incapable of having a black friend as there can be nothing in common between you! How dare you have friends who are not white Irish, it cannot be a real friendship. Don't forget to hang a sign around your black "friend's" neck to properly display him!

/bemused sarcasm

(Although starting this thread made it pretty inevitable.)

mikemac2 · 10-09-2017 07:39AM

In the seventies and eighties kids were dreaming about sport, getting a colour TV and maybe a day trip to Salthill

Culture and diversity are not goals for children

yesto24 · 10-09-2017 07:41AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes indeed. Good man. That must be it alright...

Well why else did you feel the need to tell us about, what for most of us is, a typical Saturday?

10-09-2017 07:46AM

mikemac2 wrote: »

In the seventies and eighties kids were dreaming about sport, getting a colour TV and maybe a day trip to Salthill

Culture and diversity are not goals for children

Oh true. But what a child wants and what is good for a child are usually quite different.

yesto24 · 10-09-2017 07:52AM

Samaris wrote: »

Yes Conor, you are incapable of having a black friend as there can be nothing in common between you! How dare you have friends who are not white Irish, it cannot be a real friendship. Don't forget to hang a sign around your black "friend's" neck to properly display him!

/bemused sarcasm

(Although starting this thread made it pretty inevitable.)

I think my post went over your head or you deliberately misinterpreted it.
Either way I will clarify.
I didn't say he couldn't be friends with a black person. I did say he would be friends with the black person because they are black.
I am sure he has a gay friend. A lesbian friend. A disabled friend but that one doesn't use a wheelchair so she will be traded in when he does meet someone in a wheelchair. I don't know what he will do if the wheelchair user is white man but I am sure he will cope.

Samaris · 10-09-2017 08:04AM

yesto24 wrote: »

I think my post went over your head or you deliberately misinterpreted it.
Either way I will clarify.
I didn't say he couldn't be friends with a black person. I did say he would be friends with the black person because they are black.
I am sure he has a gay friend. A lesbian friend. A disabled friend but that one doesn't use a wheelchair so she will be traded in when he does meet someone in a wheelchair. I don't know what he will do if the wheelchair user is white man but I am sure he will cope.

You going to be okay getting back from the Isle of Conclusions? You're nearly beyond leaping point.

Are you basing this on what you do or what? You know nothing about the person you're insulting, bar that apparently he's friendly with his Muslim barber, so where you pulled this lot from is a bit of a mystery. It's a dickish way to behave though.

10-09-2017 08:07AM

yesto24 wrote: »

I am sure he has a gay friend. A lesbian friend. A disabled friend but that one doesn't use a wheelchair so she will be traded in when he does meet someone in a wheelchair. I don't know what he will do if the wheelchair user is white man but I am sure he will cope.

Ermigard! Are you spying on me? How did you know all this stuff? The trading in a disabled friend for a wheelchair user is particularly weird, as I only decided to do that in the last few days.

CalamariFritti · 10-09-2017 08:38AM

The internet is really bringing out the worst in people. I know its been said a thousand times before. But apparently on the internet you're not allowed to say something moderate at all or have a nice conversation where people don't quite agree with each other.

Like I never heard anyone saying something like 'I don't know man. I hear you but I'm not fully convinced. Here, I tell you a story...'

Its always straight into 'You c*nt I hope someone smashes your head in with a rock'.

And within 3 pages the knives are out. Which kind of defeats the purpose as in being a discussion board. Because we don't actually discuss. We just throw our extreme positions at each in the most polarised fashion. Which in turn leads to us not even attempting to listen. You just skim through the pages, yeah noise, yeah rabble, yeah that one stands out for particular hatred, fair enough.

If that was happening in real life it would be like two guys standing a foot from each other, facing each other roaring at the top of their voices for ten minutes. And then after ten minutes both of them go 'I have no idea what the other guy just said tbh.

Sleeper12 · 10-09-2017 08:55AM

CalamariFritti wrote:

The internet is really bringing out the worst in people. I know its been said a thousand times before. But apparently on the internet you're not allowed to say something moderate at all or have a nice conversation where people don't quite agree with each other.

I try to treat it as a conversation I'd have with a friend down the pub. At least they start out that way. In the pub you might be passionate about the subject but you'll hear the shushes from others at the table. You can't hear anyone saying shush here even though the mods try.
It's easier to be mean or nasty to someone you can't see or more important can't see you. Most of the comments on boards I can't see being uses as forcibly with a mate in the pub. Some of the more extreme right wing views I can't see being decused among friends in the pub. I think some would be ashamed for friends to see that side of them. Though I do have a friend that thinks all black people work on oil rigs. He knows it bothers me but still calls them oil riggers. There's some people you'll never be able to change

Annasopra · 10-09-2017 08:57AM

Spider Web wrote: »

I have never known anyone to be hate filled towards Polish people - and wouldn't want to know anyone who is vapid enough to hate them and then suddenly like them because a lot of Polish women are very attractive.

It's dishonest to say Muslims are people's pet hate at the moment and to compare this to a (largely imagined I'm guessing) hatred of Polish people, as of animosity towards Islam comes from nowhere.
I really don't wish for peaceful muslims - just ordinary people - to be facing hostility, but concern about the significant threat from the extremists who practise islam is just not unreasonable. No matter how much people twist it and whatabout.

The problem is that concern turns into general hateful rhetoric against all muslims

Annasopra · 10-09-2017 09:00AM

gitzy16v wrote: »

Im not sure it annoys people as much as you'd like it too.

By the reaction here it does

Malayalam · 10-09-2017 09:04AM

Multiculturalism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism

It seems to be a word open to a variety of interpretations. It has been mentioned a few posts back, to point to the sense that it differs from cultural integration. The OP describes what I would call cultural integration, not multiculturalism as it has come to be largely understood. Words are important, the everyday meaning of them triggers associations. Culturally integrated people from all different parts of the planet can only contribute positively to the fabric of a nation and a society. We are all of us, from everywhere on the planet, ordinary human beings with the same desires for love and support and success and happiness.

Multiculturalism, however - as widely understood - is causing some difficulties, I don't know why one could be shamed for suggesting that. The difficulties may be exagerated, they may be misunderstood, but they exist.

If immigrants to a nation don't integrate but instead prefer - for example - to live in separate parts of a town or much more destructively expect, require or hope that the legal framework of their chosen theology should operate parallel to or even trump the civil legal code of the secular society they have come to live in, then this is a big issue, and worthy of note. European nations fought a long battle to come out from under the cosh of varying degrees of theocracy, a battle that Ireland in particular was slow to win. Why can one not openly criticise ANY creep towards Sharia without risking being labelled Islamaphobic or racist?

Am I scare-mongering? I don't know the truth really, as there is so much spin on both sides, but surveys demonstrate that about 23 % of UK Muslims would like Sharia Law introduced in Britain. Just one example. But this would be part of the reason that a significant portion in the general population feel concerned re multiculturalism, no matter how often they are beaten about the head for having racist or retarded attitudes. Undeniable phenomena like events in Rotherham or Bristol, etc., do not help in this regard.

The Islamic Revolutions of the 1970's enabled a more regressive Islam to come to the fore. Societies which had once been secular and moving towards liberalism were forcibly returned to theocracy. This must have been terrible for ordinary folk. The more fundamental form of Islam is lavishly funded world wide from wahabbist and rich Saudi Arabia.

I don't want Sharia Law in my children or grandchildren's future, or ever in fact. I don't want my grandchildren to live with the consequences of virulent political Islam. I don't want FGM or the burqa to have any role in my nation's future. I don't want theocratic misogyny or homophobia to play any part in the cultural future of my society. Until such time as Islam undergoes a serious root and branch reform and process of enlightenment such a prospect remains a possibility, given the demographics. In spite of PC and virtue signalling I won't stop saying that I am against embracing a regressive political theocracy in any shape or form. Islam has a staggering wealth of beautiful mysticism available to it - there is no need for it to congeal into a regressive repressive monolith.

Would it be unreasonable to sit down calmly with immigrants, upon their entry into a country, and ask them if they intended to fully and wholesomely integrate into the nation that was offering them succour, if they respected the secular nature of that society, and its civil laws, and if they intended to uphold the cultural values of the nation giving them refuge? If they agree, then of course we can expect that such people will mingle beautifully with our society and enhance it.

B0jangles · 10-09-2017 09:06AM

Samaris wrote: »

You going to be okay getting back from the Isle of Conclusions? You're nearly beyond leaping point.

Love the Phantom Tollbooth so much

baylah17 · 10-09-2017 09:08AM

mikemac2 wrote: »

In the seventies and eighties kids were dreaming about sport, getting a colour TV and maybe a day trip to Salthill

Culture and diversity are not goals for children

They should be

OhHiMark · 10-09-2017 09:11AM

RayM wrote: »

I used to dislike the GAA, but then rugby became inexplicably popular in this country, and I found a far more deserving target for my hatred.

Why do you have a hammer and sickle beside registered user under your name? Are you a communist?

OhHiMark · 10-09-2017 09:13AM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Football is a much much better sport, more participants, more people watching it's actually managed to get people playing it on an all ireland basis which is something the hurling lads have failed to do.

Gaelic football? That's a silly sport with no legitimate way to tackle someone.

10-09-2017 09:16AM

Can't believe the barber gave the child a lollipop. This fresh and original idea might just take off over here...

Sleeper12 · 10-09-2017 09:18AM

Malayalam wrote:

Would it be unreasonable to sit down calmly with immigrants, upon their entry into a country, and ask them if they intended to fully and wholesomely integrate into the nation that was offering them succour, if they respected the secular nature of that society, and its civil laws, and if they intended to uphold the cultural values of the nation giving them refuge? If they agree, then of course we can expect that such people will mingle beautifully with our society and enhance it.

Maybe I'm nit picking but I'm not sure I'd want them to totally integrate with Irish society. Bringing some of their customs with me is important too.
We have brought our drunkenness and foul language with us throughout the world. That's me trying to be funny but I believe ice hockey was an Irish invention. Started as hurling on ice skates in Canada. We bring or have brought our song & dance and we brought our religion with us wherever we went.
I'd hate to see these emigrants in 50 years time just looking like different colours of ourselves. I'd like to think that they will leave their mark in Ireland in some small ways.

Samaris · 10-09-2017 09:23AM

B0jangles wrote: »

Love the Phantom Tollbooth so much

Just turned it up recently there in a house move, must read it again

Malayalam · 10-09-2017 09:31AM

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Maybe I'm nit picking but I'm not sure I'd want them to totally integrate with Irish society. Bringing some of their customs with me is important too.
We have brought our drunkenness and foul language with us throughout the world. That's me trying to be funny but I believe ice hockey was an Irish invention. Started as hurling on ice skates in Canada. We bring or have brought our song & dance and we brought our religion with us wherever we went.
I'd hate to see these emigrants in 50 years time just looking like different colours of ourselves. I'd like to think that they will leave their mark in Ireland in some small ways.

Integrating does not mean eschewing one's own culture, or even religion. Be as you are, but do not try to bully the welcoming culture. As regards in 50 years time...is New York not considered one of the most successful immigrant scenarios? And yes, it does mean that people sort of homogenise to a certain extent. You may still wear your Sikh turban or eat Mammy's Kimchi at home but essentially you are now a New Yorker.

FTA69 · 10-09-2017 09:36AM

FraR wrote: »

How do the natives feel about it now that they're a mere minority in their own homeland?

They're not a minority. At all. In some parts of the major cities you will find areas where people are predominantly migrants or the children of migrants - that's not the same as "being a minority in your own country". I'm not even saying that there aren't any social costs to migration, there often are, but this lark of 'multiculturalism has failed' is often trotted out as some sort of commonsense statement of fact when the reality is that if it didn't broadly work people would be killing each other every two minutes in places like London, in fact most people generally get on and interact with each other multiple times daily.

Likewise many of the social costs above are also rooted in things like poverty, lack of housing and other issues as opposed to people from different backgrounds inherently disliking each other.

FraR · 10-09-2017 09:37AM

Even Merkel admitted that multiculturalism is a failed ideology.

Isn't multiculturalism great...

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