Sold car, gave logbook. Owner no longer wants the car

mordajedna · 30-08-2017 12:36pm #1

I have recently sold the car.
The car had new nct etc.
After inspection, the new owner paid me the agreed amount.
(bank transfer so there is a proof of it)

Now:
I have given the log book to the new owner. (I know, my stupid mistake!)

Apparently, the timing chain in the car has snapped.
The new owner now wants to return the non-working car claiming that it is still technically mine. He refuses to sign the change of ownership documents. He also wants to drop the car at my apartment.

Has anyone been in this situation? What can I do?

oppenheimer1 · 30-08-2017 12:42pm

Could you apply for a replacement cert and transfer registration using that?

Cee-Jay-Cee · 30-08-2017 12:44pm

When did you sell him the car?

You can tell him that you have proof he paid you and that he had the car inspected. You are not liable for anything as you are a private seller and not a dealer. Tell him you have informed the Vehicle Registration people in Shannon of his details (which I presume you at least have) and that you do not want the vehicle as it is paid for and his.

TheShow · 30-08-2017 12:47pm

Not that it matters, but how long has the car been in the new owners possession. You cant be held responsible for what happens after you sell the car. Buyer Beware. I'm not sure how you can transfer ownership if he wont agree to sign the form. Might need some legal involvement.

oppenheimer1 · 30-08-2017 12:54pm

Just don't forget OP, you're in the position of strength here. He wants his money back from you. If you do nothing, nothing will happen.

Seeing as the car is kaput it's not going to be racking up fines in your name either.

mordajedna · 30-08-2017 12:54pm

I sold the car last Saturday.
I have contacted the department of transport in Shannon and they will send me the documents to set me as me the last registered owner (car is no longer mine but no details of the new owner).

The owner claims that somehow I must have known about the issue.

It's a headache.

Isambard · 30-08-2017 12:56pm

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Just don't forget OP, you're in the position of strength here. He wants his money back from you. If you do nothing, nothing will happen.

Seeing as the car is kaput it's not going to be racking up fines in your name either.

If it is indeed kaput. Beware the buyer looking for some of the money back.

everlast75 · 30-08-2017 12:57pm

Was the car (over)due a new timing belt?

Was the buyer aware of this when the car was bought?

mordajedna · 30-08-2017 12:59pm

The car has a timing chain. These normally don't need replacement but in the service record, there was a receipt from a garage that did replace the timing chain few k km ago.

colm_mcm · 30-08-2017 1:03pm

Not your problem. Chain was obviously intact when they bought it

godtabh · 30-08-2017 1:03pm

I'd sent one more text/email stating sold as seen and dont deal with him further.

Get the change of ownership sorted with Shannon and persists just ignore him

Del2005 · 30-08-2017 1:17pm

OSI wrote: »

He bought the car as seen. Unless he can prove you deliberately misled him, tell him to **** off.

Unless the car is dangerous there is no comeback on a private sale. Then they'd need to proof that the seller knew it was dangerous and for an ordinary private seller that's nearly impossible.

The fact that the buyer is saying that the timing belt went on a car with a timing chain would lead me to think that they are trying some type of scam.

BrokenArrows · 30-08-2017 1:23pm

Dont worry about anything OP. He cant force you to return money and cant force you to take the car back.

You should get the replacement documents and register his name as a new owner.

Secondly you should inform him of the garage details where the replacement chain was fitted and get the garage to take responsibility as they shouldnt break that quickly.

XsApollo · 30-08-2017 1:51pm

How much did they pay for the car?
What car was it?
What kind of person was it?
What kind of person are you?.
Not being smart there just wondering the logistics of deal.
Legally they don't have a leg to stand on.

But if it's a couple with kids or a person that's after dropping a lot of dough on a nice car and then now being in the position of having nothing and they could be in trouble Financially and now in the Sh*t.

Depending on the type of person you are you could say FYou and ignore them.
Or you could offer a few quid back to help them get it fixed.
If it genuinely snapped and they are honest people depending on the money involved you could offer something back
Towards the repair.
You would be facing the bill now yourself if it is genuine.

Anyway some of the responses just seem a bit harsh.

MarkR · 30-08-2017 1:55pm

XsApollo wrote: »

How much did they pay for the car?
What car was it?
What kind of person was it?
What kind of person are you?.
Not being smart there just wondering the logistics of deal.
Legally they don't have a leg to stand on.

But if it's a couple with kids or a person that's after dropping a lot of dough on a nice car and then now being in the position of having nothing and they could be in trouble Financially and now in the Sh*t.

Depending on the type of person you are you could say FYou and ignore them.
Or you could offer a few quid back to help them get it fixed.
If it genuinely snapped and they are honest people depending on the money involved you could offer something back
Towards the repair.
You would be facing the bill now yourself if it is genuine.

Anyway some of the responses just seem a bit harsh.

Genuine or not, he sold the car as is. If they wanted a guarantee, they should have gotten it from a dealer. I don't think anyone is going to swallow the cost of a new engine, even if it was a boatload of nuns who bought the car.

Dravokivich · 30-08-2017 1:57pm

XsApollo wrote: »

If it genuinely snapped and they are honest people depending on the money

OP can't be held responsible for their problems.

XsApollo · 30-08-2017 1:59pm

What goes around comes around.
If they are after dropping 20k on a 520d
What's a grand or 2 to help them sort it.

I wouldn't swallow the cost of a new engine either btw.
I'm just saying I wouldn't be so quick to block their number and ignore depending on the circumstances.
We don't know the circumstances.

shaunr68 · 30-08-2017 2:04pm

XsApollo wrote: »

What's a grand or 2 to help them sort it.

My roof is leaking. Could you send me a cheque please?

Seriously, it's unfortunate for the buyer but the OP did absolutely nothing wrong and bears no responsibility for ongoing repairs to a car that does not belong to him/her.

TheShow · 30-08-2017 2:05pm

mordajedna wrote: »

The car has a timing chain. These normally don't need replacement but in the service record, there was a receipt from a garage that did replace the timing chain few k km ago.

Are you a dealer or was this a bone fide private sale?
From what you've said above in bold it seems to suggest that you were not in possession of the car for long. Was the timing chain replaced when the car was in your possession or a previous owner? as you say a few K KM ago, few months?

XsApollo · 30-08-2017 2:10pm

shaunr68 wrote: »

My roof is leaking. Could you send me a cheque please?

Seriously, it's unfortunate for the buyer but the OP did absolutely nothing wrong and bears no responsibility for ongoing repairs to a car that does not belong to him/her.

I wouldn't send you a cheque if that's how you would return the favour. ;-)

XsApollo · 30-08-2017 2:13pm

MarkR wrote: »

Genuine or not, he sold the car as is. If they wanted a guarantee, they should have gotten it from a dealer. I don't think anyone is going to swallow the cost of a new engine, even if it was a boatload of nuns who bought the car.

Legally yea.
What would you do?
If I bought a 20k car off yourself.
Met at your house paid the cash, signed the logbook and on my way out the garden the chain snapped.
Would you push me out the rest of the drive lock the gates behind me and say see ya later sucker.

com1 · 30-08-2017 2:14pm

mordajedna wrote: »

I have recently sold the car.

Now:
I have given the log book to the new owner. (I know, my stupid mistake!)

OP can I ask why you gave the buyer the log book? did they ask for it or pressure you in any way to give it to them rather than send it to Shannon yourself?

Henry Ford III · 30-08-2017 2:19pm

XsApollo wrote: »

Legally yea.
What would you do?
If I bought a 20k car off yourself.
Met at your house paid the cash, signed the logbook and on my way out the garden the chain snapped.
Would you push me out the rest of the drive lock the gates behind me and say see ya later sucker.

I'd be a bit more sensitive but a private sale has no warranty regardless if a failure happens, or when. That's one of the reasons they are generally cheaper than a dealer sale.

TJJP · 30-08-2017 2:27pm

XsApollo wrote: »

We don't know the circumstances.

We do. They bought the car privately. Caveat emptor.

mordajedna · 30-08-2017 2:29pm

We are not talking about 20k car.

More like €3000. It was a private sale outside of my apartment.

I have been driving the car daily for about a month (I am into cars and I was bored of my daily drive) without any problems. Went on few trips to Kildare/Maynooth because the roads are fun. I did the NCT just before the sale as the car needed few minor bits replaced. Talking about spark plugs, tires, brake pads and a headlamp.

There was a receipt for timing chain replacement in the service history done about 10k or 15 000 km ago. The previous owner paid over 1.2€k for it.

I fully understand how the buyer feels but the car was absolutely fine at the point of sale and I had no problems with it before. He tries to tell me that I somehow knew about the timing chain?! WTF.

Also the owner never specifically said it's the timing chain. He actually said "belt" and that the car is "totalled" and "needs entire new engine".

I gave the log book tot he owner in good faith that he will send it to Shannon. I had a proof of transaction and I thought i'd appear more genuine.I was also painting my apartment so my head was not in the right place.

bazz26 · 30-08-2017 2:30pm

I hate dealing with buyers like this, they have no concept of a private sale, they want to buy privately because it's cheaper on their pocket than buying from a dealer but they still expect the same level of protection when something goes wrong.

Yes it's unfortunate that the timing chain snapped but when you buy privately the risk is always higher. Also timing chains usually rattle before they snap or come off the tensioners, surely they or their mechanic would have spotted that?

_Kaiser_ · 30-08-2017 2:40pm

Sold as seen.. they checked it out and were happy to hand over the cash as a result. Unfortunate that this has happened, but not your problem OP

This stuff though (and you see a lot of these threads) is why I'd always pay more and buy/sell through a reputable dealer unless it was for money I could afford to write-off if it came to it.
Not having to deal with some of the chancers and time-wasters I read about here - plus having some sort of actual warranty/come-back - is worth paying the extra IMO

Kenny Logins · 30-08-2017 3:02pm

mordajedna wrote: »

Also the owner never specifically said it's the timing chain. He actually said "belt" and that the car is "totalled" and "needs entire new engine".

I find it very suspicious that a chain would break at all, never mind after just 15k km...

As somebody said earlier, your buyer should take it up with the garage that did the chain.

TheShow · 30-08-2017 3:13pm

its a tough pill to swallow for the buyer, but swallow he will have to. the only comeback he/she may have is the garage. if it was done properly it should not snap after 10/15k km., that is if the garage will entertain the request from the second owner since they completed the work.

I love Sean nos · 30-08-2017 3:20pm

mordajedna wrote: »

After inspection, the new owner paid me the agreed amount.
(bank transfer so there is a proof of it)

You have his money. Keep it. There's no problem.

the_syco · 30-08-2017 3:27pm

Del2005 wrote: »

The fact that the buyer is saying that the timing belt went on a car with a timing chain would lead me to think that they are trying some type of scam.

Agreed.

XsApollo wrote: »

Or you could offer a few quid back to help them get it fixed.
If it genuinely snapped and they are honest people depending on the money involved you could offer something back
Towards the repair.

That'd be admitting liability, and could be seen as knowing there was a fault. Best off not doing this.

Kenny Logins wrote: »

As somebody said earlier, your buyer should take it up with the garage that did the chain.

Garage could ask the new owner to prove that the car had regular services to ensure that there was regular oil top-ups, to ensure the oil didn't run low, and thus cause an issue with the belt. Or the garage could say that they will only deal with whomever they did the timing chain for.

=-=

For all we know, the new owner could have tried to do an oil change, did it badly, and caused the chain to snap. Too many unknown variables.

OP; the car is sold. If they wanted comeback, they should have bought from a dealer.

I love Sean nos · 30-08-2017 3:33pm

XsApollo wrote: »

But if it's a couple with kids or a person that's after dropping a lot of dough on a nice car and then now being in the position of having nothing and they could be in trouble Financially and now in the Sh*t.

Depending on the type of person you are you could say FYou and ignore them.
Or you could offer a few quid back to help them get it fixed.
If it genuinely snapped and they are honest people depending on the money involved you could offer something back
Towards the repair.
You would be facing the bill now yourself if it is genuine.

Anyway some of the responses just seem a bit harsh.

When you're looking to next change your car, PM me and I'll seriously consider buying it from you.

XsApollo · 30-08-2017 3:53pm

I love Sean nos wrote: »

When you're looking to next change your car, PM me and I'll seriously consider buying it from you.

I have a 2010 Audi A6 sline that can be bought if you like.
But knowing how you would treat me if it was the other way around you wouldn't be hearing from me as soon as you went out the drive :-D

Seriously a bit of context is great.
A 3000 euro car I wouldn't be too pushed myself.

But the attitude of ignore and f*ck em is pretty shi*ty without knowing anything.
Legally you are obliged to do nothing.
As a person if you don't give a fukc about the other person that's your own business.
What goes around comes around,
Wouldn't be the attitude I'd have myself.

coylemj · 30-08-2017 4:02pm

mordajedna wrote: »

Also the owner never specifically said it's the timing chain. He actually said "belt" and that the car is "totalled" and "needs entire new engine".

It probably does need a new engine. And a new catalytic converter - because he has swapped out the ones that were in the car when you sold it to him.

But even if this is not a scam, legally he doesn't have a leg to stand on and the less you engage with him the better because if he sniffs that you are prepared to 'meet him halfway' (i.e. give him cash to p1ss off), you'll never shake him off.

Any lawyer will tell you that the legal principle that applies in a private sale is 'caveat emptor' - let the buyer beware. It states that the buyer basically has little or no rights. You sold the car in good faith, it's now his problem.

BeQuiet · 30-08-2017 4:14pm

I was selling an old Renault Scenic in July for a few hundred. Got an offer and took it from a 'travelling man' . He paid me the cash , and drove off. We did all the paperwork and he signed the ownership transfer although he wasnt too sure of his own address!
Then he comes back the next day looking for his money back .... no reason - just changed his mind! As he was a hard chaw and not the brightest, I figured it would be easier to give him the cash and deal with the forms hassle myself.
From sounds of OPs issue here, this guy is a similar or worse chancer - my tuppence worth would be to not even take his calls or have anything to do with him.

_Kaiser_ · 30-08-2017 4:18pm

XsApollo wrote: »

As a person if you don't give a fukc about the other person that's your own business.
What goes around comes around,
Wouldn't be the attitude I'd have myself.

Personally I've never been one for all that "karma" superstition and such, but you're making a bit of a leap inferring that some here "don't give a fúck" about others.

The OP's buyer inspected the car and was happy to proceed and pay based on this. Now they're claiming something is wrong and wanting their money back.

1) The OP is not a car dealer/business thus did not offer a warranty

2) There's no telling what the buyer may have done to the car in the interim

3) Giving cash back as you suggest (even as goodwill) could be inferred as the OP admitting they knew something was wrong, thus potentially leaving him liable for far bigger costs.

In short, if the buyer wanted a warranty and comeback they should have bought from a dealer, not the OP

XsApollo · 30-08-2017 4:31pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Personally I've never been one for all that "karma" superstition and such, but you're making a bit of a leap inferring that some here "don't give a fúck" about others.

The OP's buyer inspected the car and was happy to proceed and pay based on this. Now they're claiming something is wrong and wanting their money back.

1) The OP is not a car dealer/business thus did not offer a warranty

2) There's no telling what the buyer may have done to the car in the interim

3) Giving cash back as you suggest (even as goodwill) could be inferred as the OP admitting they knew something was wrong, thus potentially leaving him liable for far bigger costs.

In short, if the buyer wanted a warranty and comeback they should have bought from a dealer, not the OP

Context man,
Nobody new the context of the ops dealings and we're all on the bandwagon of tough Luck ignore them.
Nobody knew the price of the car, type of car , type of people that bought it.

Obviously they wouldn't be worrying about the other person if they are saying ignore them , tough luck caveat emptor

Back to my main point and my first post was asking what type of deal was it , who were you dealing with.
If I sold my car to some hard up genuine person, or some single mother with kids
Who was going to be up sh*t creek,
No I wouldn't have that attitude.
Would you yourself?
Legally he doesn't have to do nothing.
It's up to him what he wants to do after that.

bazz26 · 30-08-2017 4:39pm

Where do you draw the line though, what if that hard up buyer was back to you the week after next with another problem? Do you fix that too or tell them to get on their bike? How far does your generosity go as you have now set a precedence? If you wear your heart on your sleeve when it comes to selling stuff to strangers then you'll be both out of pocket and made a fool of very quickly.

MarkR · 30-08-2017 4:56pm

XsApollo wrote: »

Context man,
Nobody new the context of the ops dealings and we're all on the bandwagon of tough Luck ignore them.
Nobody knew the price of the car, type of car , type of people that bought it.

Obviously they wouldn't be worrying about the other person if they are saying ignore them , tough luck caveat emptor

Back to my main point and my first post was asking what type of deal was it , who were you dealing with.
If I sold my car to some hard up genuine person, or some single mother with kids
Who was going to be up sh*t creek,
No I wouldn't have that attitude.
Would you yourself?
Legally he doesn't have to do nothing.
It's up to him what he wants to do after that.

What about if it was a single father? Or do they have to have kids? Does it matter if I have kids? Does my marital status come into it?

XsApollo · 30-08-2017 5:03pm

Look nobody knew what the car was or how much money was involved.
If it was a 15 - 20k car and the engine shat itself after a few days I probably throw them a grand or 2 and be done with it.
A 3k I probably wouldn't do anything.
Or Give em a couple of hundred quid and be done with it.
Just to be clear both instances I wouldn't take the car back.
But I wouldn't be saying tough luck, and blocking their number, or actually that depends on how they are really.

I've sold plenty of stuff online and had one or 2 complaints but I have never had the attitude of tough luck don't ring me again.
Depends on who I am dealing with.

XsApollo · 30-08-2017 5:04pm

MarkR wrote: »

What about if it was a single father? Or do they have to have kids? Does it matter if I have kids? Does my marital status come into it?

Are you putting words in my mouth now or what?

coylemj · 30-08-2017 5:09pm

XsApollo wrote: »

Look nobody knew what the car was or how much money was involved.
If it was a 15 - 20k car and the engine shat itself after a few days I probably throw them a grand or 2 and be done with it.

But if you gave the buyer a partial refund, you would not be 'done with it' because you would have tacitly admitted that you had a liability in the matter and the follow-up would be a solicitor's letter looking for the balance.

Not a cent. Caveat emptor. Can't say it often enough.

XsApollo · 30-08-2017 5:17pm

Ok. That depends on the other person too as well.
Anyway
I'm out now
I don't fancy a long debate about it.
It's not the attitude I would have is my point.

godtabh · 30-08-2017 5:22pm

XsApollo wrote: »

Look nobody knew what the car was or how much money was involved.
If it was a 15 - 20k car and the engine shat itself after a few days I probably throw them a grand or 2 and be done with it.
A 3k I probably wouldn't do anything.
Or Give em a couple of hundred quid and be done with it.
Just to be clear both instances I wouldn't take the car back.
But I wouldn't be saying tough luck, and blocking their number, or actually that depends on how they are really.

I've sold plenty of stuff online and had one or 2 complaints but I have never had the attitude of tough luck don't ring me again.
Depends on who I am dealing with.

What if the OP was selling the car out of desperation and need the cash?

TheShow · 30-08-2017 6:00pm

XsApollo wrote: »

Ok. That depends on the other person too as well.
Anyway
I'm out now
I don't fancy a long debate about it.
It's not the attitude I would have is my point.

I get what you're saying and there is nothing wrong with having a conscience, its an unfortunate situation, but at the end of the day it is what it is. As per the OP's comments, the buyer inspected the motor and purchased as seen. Deal done, no swapsies.

mordajedna · 30-08-2017 6:22pm

Well, first of all, thanks everyone for their input. I was not expecting this amount of replies in such a short notice.

The new owner is attempting to convince me that the car is still my "liability" as I didn't sign the papers, to which I politely reply that I am happy to comply with the vehicle ownership transfer regulations & meet to sign the documents in his presence.

Moreover, the new owner attempts to somehow tell me that I knew about the timing chain ?! His mechanic told him that it should rattle when the engine is cold. Funny enough, I started the car cold with him @ the inspection and neither one of us could hear any rattle whatsoever.

I also have a proof that the car was working as the owner drove through M50 toll gate and the letter came to my address...today.

I feel bad for him as I bought few lemons back in my day, and I know it hurts. In my case, it was a head gasket on Lexus IS200... It took me a year of putting new parts in the car before I figured out what was wrong with it (the car kept losing coolant through overflow pipe (although quite slow) but no chocolate milk etc...). The previous owner definitely knew about that issue but there wasn't really any way back.

My bet would be that after buying the car, he red-lined the engine while cold or downshifted like an idiot. The chain still shouldn't have broken but well, unlucky.

kona · 30-08-2017 6:24pm

BeQuiet wrote: »

Got an offer and took it from a 'travelling man' .

The first rule of selling cars, dont sell to "insert pc term here"

WealthyB · 30-08-2017 6:27pm

kona wrote: »

The first rule of selling cars, dont sell to "insert pc term here"

First rule of anything.

I love Sean nos · 30-08-2017 6:33pm

XsApollo wrote: »

I have a 2010 Audi A6 sline that can be bought if you like.
But knowing how you would treat me if it was the other way around you wouldn't be hearing from me as soon as you went out the drive :-D

Bit hypocritical of you not to behave while preaching to the OP.

goochy · 30-08-2017 6:41pm

Did you give a receipt to say you received money ? tell him you will call the guards if he persists.
even if you knew there was a fault - he cant get dealer comeback with private sale - if the chain was close to going - it would have been a bit noisey ?
anyone who buys privately without professional inspection gets no sympathy from me.

Duke O Smiley · 30-08-2017 6:47pm

First of all, a logbook is not proof of ownership so the car is 100% not your "liability". Tell him to keep it, frame it if he wants. Get onto Shannon again and tell them the car no longer belongs to you. Same with eflow and the likes.

And then cut all contact. Do not offer to pay a cent, do not contact this person at all.

Sold car, gave logbook. Owner no longer wants the car

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