The biggest stumbling block for EV uptake

knipex · 22-08-2017 06:34PM

Falcon L wrote: »

I'm not sure where you're going with the other stuff about insurance and 50% tax.

Relatively poor people who struggle to afford 10 year old cars are having their taxes used to subsidise new cars for relatively well off people who can afford new cars.

jamesthepeach · 22-08-2017 06:38PM

The cynic in me says that the government have seen the damage that will be done to their tax take and are silently slinking back into their hole.

macnab · 22-08-2017 06:42PM

knipex wrote: »

Relatively poor people who struggle to afford 10 year old cars are having their taxes used to subsidise new cars for relatively well off people who can afford new cars.

We would all be struggling more if no one bought new cars.

Falcon L · 22-08-2017 06:47PM

knipex wrote: »

Relatively poor people who struggle to afford 10 year old cars are having their taxes used to subsidise new cars for relatively well off people who can afford new cars.

I can afford a new car because I worked hard all my life, paying ridiculous tax rates. I also struggled with over 15% mortgage interest rates. None of that has anything to do with the country needing to clean up it's act and reduce carbon emissions, or face large fines, which will have to be paid by those same 50% taxpayers.

Wait until the 10 year old diesel cars the poor people are driving are taxed out of existence. Then they'll be very happy that there's a stock of second hand EV's that the likes of me will have eaten the depreciation on.

Mooooo · 22-08-2017 06:48PM

How long would it take to charge to get a usable amount of range out of a charge. You'd think if they had space a service station on a tourist route or rural area could install one or two and perhaps charge a nominal fee per hour or half hour or whatever €2 etc. Or even pubs along the route that do food may get a dinner customer out of it as well, esp in the off season when Irish customers would be the ones to target for an autumn break or whatever

Orebro · 22-08-2017 06:56PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Hmm, how many state owned and operated filling station are there in Ireland?

It wasn't too big of an undertaking for private companies to build 3 separate national mobile phone networks on top of buying an expensive license so it shouldn't be a big deal for private enterprise to build a national charger network. Once users have to pay they're will be plenty of operators. Free charging is holding back the development of private operators

The government should be legislating, not interfering in the market.

Charging is free and yet there are still a tiny amount of EVs on the road, and you think there is space for someone to invest huge sums on a FCP infrastructure? Pretty obvious you don't run a business anyway.

grogi · 22-08-2017 07:12PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Hmm, how many state owned and operated filling station are there in Ireland?

It wasn't too big of an undertaking for private companies to build 3 separate national mobile phone networks on top of buying an expensive license so it shouldn't be a big deal for private enterprise to build a national charger network. Once users have to pay they're will be plenty of operators. Free charging is holding back the development of private operators

The government should be legislating, not interfering in the market.

And how many private electricity networks are there? How much water pipes was build with private money?

22-08-2017 07:23PM

knipex wrote: »

Relatively poor people who struggle to afford 10 year old cars are having their taxes used to subsidise new cars for relatively well off people who can afford new cars.

Well if us early adopters didn't buy these new electric cars then there wouldn't be the cracking bargains available 2nd hand that there are today making them affordable to a lot more people.

namloc1980 · 22-08-2017 08:17PM

Until there is a home charging solution for those of us who don't have off street parking then EV take-up will be slow. In particular in urban built up areas where EVs would be fantastically beneficial, alot of people don't have off street parking/private area to charge up. Is there any good news on that front?

unkel · 22-08-2017 08:54PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

Is there any good news on that front?

Yes there is. Home charging really isn't 100% needed anymore and hopefully becoming less so soon enough. Lidl have started to install fast charging points at their supermarkets, free for customers to use. Park, hook up, do your 20-25 minutes shop and come back to a fully charged car. No need to bother with home charging

There are over 100 free fast chargers in the EU (excellent quality triple head ABB chargers, these are better than the efaced triple head chargers the ESB have in Ireland). The first Irish one was installed and fully operational last month. Hopefully many more will follow and many more other commercial entities will follow Lidl's lead

namloc1980 · 22-08-2017 09:02PM

unkel wrote: »

Yes there is. Home charging really isn't 100% needed anymore and hopefully becoming less so soon enough. Lidl have started to install fast charging points at their supermarkets, free for customers to use. Park, hook up, do your 20-25 minutes shop and come back to a fully charged car. No need to bother with home charging

There are over 100 free fast chargers in the EU (excellent quality triple head ABB chargers, these are better than the efaced triple head chargers the ESB have in Ireland). The first Irish one was installed and fully operational last month. Hopefully many more will follow and many more other commercial entities will follow Lidl's lead

The issue I see with that is unless there's a massive increase in charge points there's always the chance you show up at Lidl (or anywhere) and the charge point is occupied. You're kinda banjaxed then if you've no fallback option at home.

jamesthepeach · 22-08-2017 09:05PM

unkel wrote: »

Yes there is. Home charging really isn't 100% needed anymore and hopefully becoming less so soon enough. Lidl have started to install fast charging points at their supermarkets, free for customers to use. Park, hook up, do your 20-25 minutes shop and come back to a fully charged car. No need to bother with home charging

There are over 100 free fast chargers in the EU (excellent quality triple head ABB chargers, these are better than the efaced triple head chargers the ESB have in Ireland). The first Irish one was installed and fully operational last month. Hopefully many more will follow and many more other commercial entities will follow Lidl's lead

Where are these lidl ones ones planned?

thierry14 · 22-08-2017 09:41PM

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Where are these lidl ones ones planned?

Haven't heard of this either

Going to buy a Leaf 2 in Jan and Lidl will be my first choice now lol

KCross · 22-08-2017 09:44PM

unkel wrote: »

Yes there is. Home charging really isn't 100% needed anymore and hopefully becoming less so soon enough. Lidl have started to install fast charging points at their supermarkets, free for customers to use. Park, hook up, do your 20-25 minutes shop and come back to a fully charged car. No need to bother with home charging

It is 100% needed and will be for quite some time to come.

I don't want to drive anywhere to charge. I want to plug in at let it do its thing while I sleep and it's also better for the grid. If the way of the future is large charging stations only and you have 100s of thousand of cars visiting these during the day you will screw the grid.

Why would you think home charging isn't part of the future? You're sticking to your ICE petrol station way of thinking!

thierry14 · 22-08-2017 09:46PM

KCross wrote: »

It is 100% needed and will be for quite some time to come.

I don't want to drive anywhere to charge. I want to plug in at let it do its thing while I sleep and it's also better for the grid. If the way of the future is large charging stations only and you have 100s of thousand of cars visiting these during the day you will screw the grid.

Why would you think home charging isn't part of the future? You're sticking to your ICE petrol station way of thinking!

Charge in 2 -3 mins vs 8 hours

Why would home charging be the future

KCross · 22-08-2017 09:56PM

thierry14 wrote: »

Charge in 2 -3 mins vs 8 hours

Why would home charging be the future

When you have a charger AND a battery that can do that come back to me!

Either way, my car is idle for at least 8hrs every night so I'd still consider the diversion to a station and the 2-3 mins a waste of my time.

Some people will have to do it because they don't have off street parking but for those that can I can't see a good reason to do it the hard way.

pwurple · 22-08-2017 09:58PM

I haven't charged at home since January... and I travel between around 10 industrial areas in the Cork region. The last of them put in a company charger last year. All my charging is done at work, while I am inside the building working away.

positron · 22-08-2017 09:59PM

jamesthepeach wrote:

Where are these lidl ones ones planned?

There's a fast charger in the newly refurbished Lidl here in Drogheda. Not sure if there is one in the newly built Lidl in Portmarnock, will check this weekend.

thierry14 · 22-08-2017 10:00PM

KCross wrote: »

When you have a charger AND a battery that can do that come back to me!

Either way, my car is idle for at least 8hrs every night so I'd still consider the diversion to a station and the 2-3 mins a waste of my time.

Some people will have to do it because they don't have off street parking but for those that can I can't see a good reason to do it the hard way.

Don't think they are too far with liquid cooling.

8 hours does you now, but when 100kwh+ batteries become the standard, you'll need a lot more than 8 hour's.

Governments will push us towards commercial charging, I am sure of that.

KCross · 22-08-2017 10:17PM

thierry14 wrote: »

Don't think they are too far with liquid cooling.

8 hours does you now, but when 100kwh+ batteries become the standard, you'll need a lot more than 8 hour's.

Governments will push us towards commercial charging, I am sure of that.

Why would most people need 100kWh+?

You can see what's possible today with 28kWh. 100kWh EVs will exist of course for high end cars and SUVs but the majority won't come close.

Standard domestic connection will be able to deliver 90kWh+ every night. How many people will need more than that?
If you do, just upgrade your connection to 16kVA, 20kVA, etc.

Not sure about governments being able to push us towards anything. The market and the manufacturers are likely to dictate more than govt's.... in the medium term at least.

liamog · 22-08-2017 11:15PM

KCross wrote: »

It is 100% needed and will be for quite some time to come.

I don't want to drive anywhere to charge. I want to plug in at let it do its thing while I sleep and it's also better for the grid. If the way of the future is large charging stations only and you have 100s of thousand of cars visiting these during the day you will screw the grid.

Why would you think home charging isn't part of the future? You're sticking to your ICE petrol station way of thinking!

It's definitely not 100% needed, we already have examples of people who don't have home charging, that number will go up as longer range cars become more common.

The average Irish driver does 16,000 km a year. With a 24kWh Leaf that your going to need to charge every other day, for this scenario of course home charging seems necessary.
The Ioniq needs to be charged every 4th day, Model 3, every 7 days and the extended version every 11th day.

The bigger the battery the faster the fast charge. Will I spend a couple of minutes finding the special lamppost on my street to charge my car, which may be occupied, or will I drive to the local charging centre, plug in for 30 minutes and be covered for another week, whilst picking up my groceries. The reality is it will be both, however there seems to be a reluctance on the behalf of some very early adopters to acknowledge the second scenario.

150 years ago, I had to recharge my horse every night in a field, when I travelled I had to find an inn with a stable to recharge my horse. Some places introduced ridesharing, it was revolutionary, I could drop off my depleted horse and pick up a fully charged one, are we repeating the circle?

KCross · 22-08-2017 11:41PM

liamog wrote: »

It's definitely not 100% needed, we already have examples of people who don't have home charging, that number will go up as longer range cars become more common.

The average Irish driver does 16,000 km a year. With a 24kWh Leaf that your going to need to charge every other day, for this scenario of course home charging seems necessary.
The Ioniq needs to be charged every 4th day, Model 3, every 7 days and the extended version every 11th day.

The bigger the battery the faster the fast charge. Will I spend a couple of minutes finding the special lamppost on my street to charge my car, which may be occupied, or will I drive to the local charging centre, plug in for 30 minutes and be covered for another week, whilst picking up my groceries. The reality is it will be both, however there seems to be a reluctance on the behalf of some very early adopters to acknowledge the second scenario.

150 years ago, I had to recharge my horse every night in a field, when I travelled I had to find an inn with a stable to recharge my horse. Some places introduced ridesharing, it was revolutionary, I could drop off my depleted horse and pick up a fully charged one, are we repeating the circle?

I don't disagree with any of your scenarios there but they don't support the idea that home charging should be sidelined for high powered charging.

Both will be required not least of which is the need to balance the grid better.

So I'd still say it is required. We are predicting the future here so none of us know for sure but we should be looking to maintain convenience and home charging is about as convenient as you can get.

unkel · 23-08-2017 01:42AM

KCross wrote: »

So I'd still say it is required.

My car is happily charging away at 6.6kW on my drive at the moment

Home charging is likely to have a place forever for those of us lucky enough to have a private charger. Increasingly, people won't as they won't have any drives, or even front gardens or even private parking. Not the people in the greater Dublin area anyway. For all those people hopefully there will be fast chargers everywhere

And yes, the first Lidl one opened in Drogheda last month. Hopefully there will be many more soon, maybe Aldi is next and then Tesco. Several fast chargers at every supermarket in the country in 10 years time, every supermarket's roof covered in solar panels. Who knows. But it sounds good to me. And it would be a godsend for all those people without driveways...

Falcon L · 23-08-2017 08:18AM

I try to think about re-fueling my current diesel. If I could drip feel diesel into it at home at night, I would. If I need diesel while I'm away from home I could hop into a place where I could increase my range by quickly buying some diesel at a convenient point. All I have at the moment is the convenient point away from home: a petrol station.

If I had an EV, I would charge at home, slowly and at night. But I would sometimes need to buy some electricity at a convenient point. That point simply isn't there at the moment. My nearest fast charger is over 30 minutes drive away, and if it's not working, the next nearest is nearly an hour from there. I know that I could get there with a home charge on board, but there will be times when I have to go a distance late in the day (2 grandchildren due around new year). That's where the public charging network lets me down. There are no fast chargers at both destinations either.

23-08-2017 08:36AM

liamog wrote: »

The Ioniq needs to be charged every 4th day, Model 3, every 7 days and the extended version every 11th day.

Why would you do that ? if you have a 100 Kwh batter for instance, why wait a couple of days to let the battery run down before charging it ?

If you keep the battery around 60-70% then charging it for that 300+ Km trip won't be an issue.

Charging a 100 Kwh battery won't be an issue as you will not be needing 100 Kwh daily.

That article in the paper was complete and utter junk journalism as usual, it's no wonder Trump is P1ssed at the media, they're idiots !

KCross · 23-08-2017 09:12AM

unkel wrote: »

Yes there is. Home charging really isn't 100% needed anymore and hopefully becoming less so soon enough.

unkel wrote: »

My car is happily charging away at 6.6kW on my drive at the moment

Home charging is likely to have a place forever for those of us lucky enough to have a private charger.

We are in agreement so. Maybe I misinterpreted your first post above. I thought you were saying home charging was on the way out!

ELM327 · 23-08-2017 09:19AM

KCross wrote: »

We are in agreement so. Maybe I misinterpreted your first post above. I thought you were saying home charging was on the way out!

Home charging won't be on the way out for a long time, if ever.
I do anticipate a change to DC charging. So to charge at home instead of spending 500 on an AC charger you may have to spend a couple of thousand (at today's prices) on a low power DC unit.

I don't see AC lasting, as the fact that the car has to carry around a dead weight (ac charger) in order to facilitate it is a waste, vs DC charging where you don't need an intermediary between the DC charger and the car.

grogi · 23-08-2017 09:23AM

ELM327 wrote: »

Home charging won't be on the way out for a long time, if ever.
I do anticipate a change to DC charging. So to charge at home instead of spending 500 on an AC charger you may have to spend a couple of thousand (at today's prices) on a low power DC unit.

I don't see AC lasting, as the fact that the car has to carry around a dead weight (ac charger) in order to facilitate it is a waste, vs DC charging where you don't need an intermediary between the DC charger and the car.

Weirdly enough it is DC charger that was optional in the Leafs. Was it just a marketing gimmick then?

AC is here to stay short term for sure. AC is available everywhere...

Orebro · 23-08-2017 09:29AM

I think it was only optional in early base models. Pretty sure it was standard from 2012 onwards.

KCross · 23-08-2017 09:31AM

ELM327 wrote: »

I don't see AC lasting, as the fact that the car has to carry around a dead weight (ac charger) in order to facilitate it is a waste, vs DC charging where you don't need an intermediary between the DC charger and the car.

Apparently the AC components are of the order of 10kg so irrelevant in the overall weight of the car (1600+kg) so doesn't really affect range.

AC, in my mind, is required simply because thats what we all have at home (and everywhere) but if they do invent a cheap DC home charger then thats fine too.

The biggest stumbling block for EV uptake

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