All Ireland SHC Final (formerly SHC thread) - READ MOD NOTE POST #1

Dick phelan · 17-08-2017 06:44PM

The point i was making was the sweeper thing has been blown way out of proportion teams play to their strength and a style that gives them the best chance to win it's stupid to suggest the only way hurling should be played is going man on man 15 v 15 Waterford won't win an AI playing that way we might do so playing as we are now.

letowski · 17-08-2017 08:01PM

Dick phelan wrote: »

The point i was making was the sweeper thing has been blown way out of proportion teams play to their strength and a style that gives them the best chance to win it's stupid to suggest the only way hurling should be played is going man on man 15 v 15 Waterford won't win an AI playing that way we might do so playing as we are now.

This is just one persons opinion, I would agree with that to some extent, but the reality is we will never know so long as McGrath is in charge of your county. Just because this team had one bad year playing 15 on 15 in 2014 doesn't mean that they were never meant to win an All Ireland playing like this going forward. Okay it probably would not have meant Waterford making a AI semi in 2015 but over the development of time, Waterford might have been in this situation playing in a traditional formation.

The main counter argument I would make is that going into this final, ye probably don't have a marque free scoring inside forward like a Whelan or a Cooney. But that's not to say McGrath didn't have these players. Patrick Curran and Stephen Bennett were outstanding talents coming out underage (I think they still are), in which their progress looks to have stalled under McGrath's system (I know they have had injuries, but still). Patrick Curran for me could be of a John McGrath type level now with the potential he had/has but barely gets a run this year.

It's just my opinion as an outsider, that while McGrath to a certain degree designs a brand of hurling suitable for this group of Waterford hurlers, I'm not sure does he fully utilizes the talents available to him. But if ye win in September, he is justified of course.

puzl · 17-08-2017 08:27PM

Fergal Horgan confirmed as ref for the finals.

Hitchens · 17-08-2017 08:39PM

puzl wrote: »

Fergal Horgan confirmed as ref for the finals.

ah Jazaz

Mulbert · 17-08-2017 09:14PM

Brick will get an all-star this year whether he hits another ball or not and will deserve it.

PTH2009 · 17-08-2017 10:05PM

Mulbert wrote: »

Brick will get an all-star this year whether he hits another ball or not and will deserve it.

Barron, Aussie and SOK too

danganabu · 17-08-2017 10:22PM

mountgomery burns wrote: »

In fairness Dangan, lot of teams playing an extra man back before Waterford. Offaly even played 2 lads in between the lines this year.

Of course they have, but to simplify what Waterford do to as simply just dropping a man back is doing McGrath a huge disservice to be honest.

Robson99 · 17-08-2017 10:25PM

PTH2009 wrote: »

Barron, Aussie and SOK too

Not a great sign of a good sweeper system if the goalie gets an all star

mountgomery burns · 17-08-2017 10:36PM

danganabu wrote: »

Of course they have, but to simplify what Waterford do to as simply just dropping a man back is doing McGrath a huge disservice to be honest.

True, but Id say a lot are working on the same principles of each line comes deeper to cover the space left behind and try and ensure there isn't space for players to get an easy shot within scoring range.

My point is moreso that I think Waterford have altered methods that are already there, adapting it to their own perceived strengths. And I don't doubt that approach is something many managers try, but I would be sceptical of the view that a Waterford all ireland win will bring about some sort of apocalypse of negative hurling.

Mulbert · 17-08-2017 11:01PM

Agree 100%, this obsession with a sweeper is now a national obsession.

If you asked most to explain their opinion on Waterford's sweeper system they wouldn't know where to start. I find people then start quoting Shefflin or Duignan without giving an original word or thought of their own.

They basically couldn't give an opinion, because they base everything they say on what pundits say. And a lot of the time pundits are talking out of their holes (no matter how many AI's they have).

The pundits set the agenda, the terms of engagement, light fires under tinderboxs and **** off while us clowns clamber around trying to fill in the hugh voids of reason left within their opinions and arguments.

buzzinfly83 · 17-08-2017 11:42PM

I think the sweeper system negativity is really being overblown. Surely any team can employ whatever tactics neccessary if they feel it can bring them success. It's not as if Waterford haven't been registering big scores.

I don't watch any sport to see each team playing the exact same way. Granted certain styles of play are more exciting and appealling to watch but teams across all sports use various tactics and styles in order to win. Across many sports there are examples of defensive tactics but in hurling there seems to be outrage if a team dares to play anything other than 15vs15.

Realistically if each team goes 15v15 then only the team with the strongest 15 will repeatedly win. It's the managers job to be tactically astute and come up with a strategy to get the best out of the players at his disposal. Your judged on results ultimately. Waterford have had teams full of flair players that were exciting to watch but never landed the big prize. It remains to be seen if the current team will do it but the approach they are using at least has them in contention.

danganabu · 18-08-2017 10:51AM

I do agree with the above sentiments but can I just stress that firstly Waterford do not play a ''sweeper'' system, its far more complex and evolved than that, labelling it as a sweeper is lazy analysis and a, pardon the pun, sweeping generalisation.

Secondly in the aftermath of last years Munster Final and this years defeat to Cork, the biggest and loudest critics of McGrath and his tactics were from within Waterford, that is a fact, read back over the Waterford thread if you don't believe me. So it is a bit rich for some now to be coming all out attacking any pundit or journalist who dares to frown upon or criticise how they set up.

The game that changed my view on it was actually the Munster Final in 2015, at the game I thought jaysus this is putrid and neither team is worth a damn, but when I watched it back I found it intriguing, it was like a game of chess with Waterford incredibly disciplined and organised, Tipp were initially like a rabbit in the headlights but eventually figured it out and carved out a win. But one of the reasons that it was fascinating and intriguing was because of the novelty and 'newness' of it, if it was to become the norm and both teams were to adopt the same approach then yes I make no apologies for saying it would be a backward step for hurling and would dilute the spectacle - Waterford v Wexford this year was terrible viewing.

tomwaterford · 18-08-2017 10:57AM

danganabu wrote: »

I do agree with the above sentiments but can I just stress that firstly Waterford do not play a ''sweeper'' system, its far more complex and evolved than that, labelling it as a sweeper is lazy analysis and a, pardon the pun, sweeping generalisation.

Secondly in the aftermath of last years Munster Final and this years defeat to Cork, the biggest and loudest critics of McGrath and his tactics were from within Waterford, that is a fact, read back over the Waterford thread if you don't believe me. So it is a bit rich for some now to be coming all out attacking any pundit or journalist who dares to frown upon or criticise how they set up.

The game that changed my view on it was actually the Munster Final in 2015, at the game I thought jaysus this is putrid and neither team is worth a damn, but when I watched it back I found it intriguing, it was like a game of chess with Waterford incredibly disciplined and organised, Tipp were initially like a rabbit in the headlights but eventually figured it out and carved out a win. But one of the reasons that it was fascinating and intriguing was because of the novelty and 'newness' of it, if it was to become the norm and both teams were to adopt the same approach then yes I make no apologies for saying it would be a backward step for hurling and would dilute the spectacle - Waterford v Wexford this year was terrible viewing.

Tipp hammered waterford in 2015 munster final...In a rain soaked limerick???

And it is a slight worry that galway might do same...put all there ball winners in full forward win..

Push wing backs up and just by pass the sweeper

danganabu · 18-08-2017 11:10AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Tipp hammered waterford in 2015 munster final...In a rain soaked limerick???

And it is a slight worry that galway might do same...put all there ball winners in full forward win..

Push wing backs up and just by pass the sweeper

2016 was the hammering, 2015 was in Thurles, a bit of a stalemate and then Bubbles retreated out the field and Tipp picked off points from out the field.

Hitchens · 18-08-2017 11:18AM

danganabu wrote: »

I do agree with the above sentiments but can I just stress that firstly Waterford do not play a ''sweeper'' system, its far more complex and evolved than that, labelling it as a sweeper is lazy analysis and a, pardon the pun, sweeping generalisation.

Secondly in the aftermath of last years Munster Final and this years defeat to Cork, the biggest and loudest critics of McGrath and his tactics were from within Waterford, that is a fact, read back over the Waterford thread if you don't believe me. So it is a bit rich for some now to be coming all out attacking any pundit or journalist who dares to frown upon or criticise how they set up.

The game that changed my view on it was actually the Munster Final in 2015, at the game I thought jaysus this is putrid and neither team is worth a damn, but when I watched it back I found it intriguing, it was like a game of chess with Waterford incredibly disciplined and organised, Tipp were initially like a rabbit in the headlights but eventually figured it out and carved out a win. But one of the reasons that it was fascinating and intriguing was because of the novelty and 'newness' of it, if it was to become the norm and both teams were to adopt the same approach then yes I make no apologies for saying it would be a backward step for hurling and would dilute the spectacle - Waterford v Wexford this year was terrible viewing.

Ah if they could only figure out Galway's system now

blue note · 18-08-2017 11:21AM

danganabu wrote:

2016 was the hammering, 2015 was in Thurles, a bit of a stalemate and then Bubbles retreated out the field and Tipp picked off points from out the field.

I actually really enjoyed that game and thought people drastically underestimated the quality on show that day. In such a tight game there were very few mistakes made. There was only a score in it for majority of the match - a couple of quick points for waterford or a goal and we could have snuck it. But tipp were outstanding right up until the final whistle.

I still think if we'd played like that against Kilkenny we'd have won. But it was a long season and we'd beung going hard from the start of the league. I think we were a bit burnt out by the time the semi finals came along.

danganabu · 18-08-2017 11:22AM

Hitchens wrote: »

Ah if they could only figure out Galway's system now

I'm sorry you lost me??

OEP · 18-08-2017 11:28AM

For all the negativity about the sweeper system, the best quality game this year was Waterford v Cork. Waterford's short passing and vision was really top quality, the passes for the first two goals are two perfect examples. Although they had 14 wides I think, the long range shooting was of a high standard. The sending off ruined it as a contest but I think Waterford would have won either way, with the subs coming on and a fitter Waterford finishing strongly.
Galway v Tipp was not a high quality game, it was error strewn and only came to life towards the end. Only for the fact the finish was so exciting, it was not a good game. When Waterford face up to a team like Wexford, it is boring, but that's more down to the fact that teams like Wexford don't have the hurling capabilities of Waterford to attack effectively with a sweeper in place.

jr86 · 18-08-2017 11:32AM

Cork tipp was the best game to watch for me. Defending a bit loose at times, but a real high octane shoot-out

OEP · 18-08-2017 11:38AM

jr86 wrote: »

Cork tipp was the best game to watch for me. Defending a bit loose at times, but a real high octane shoot-out

That's fair. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the shootouts. Defending is a skill too!

danganabu · 18-08-2017 11:46AM

OEP wrote: »

Although they had 14 wides I think, the long range shooting was of a high standard.

Don't think it was at all to be honest, if we take the first 50 mins of the game i.e. when 15 v 15 there was only 14 points scored from play and 16 wides, Horgan got most of the Cork 7 and none were from distance.

letsseehere14 · 18-08-2017 12:45PM

Waterford Cork AI semi was an interesting contest but for me the quality was not better than the other semi final and it lacked the excitement. If either Cork or Waterford played either team in the other semi they would have lost. That's just my opinion.
For me, Galway v Tipp was the most exciting game of the year by a long way.
Cork v Tipp was the highest quality scoring wise. Some serious pieces of play and points taken that day. By all accounts Offaly v Westmeath this year was one of the best matches too, just very few got to see it.

Hard to accept but looking back over the last few years the best games have been with the best teams playing the closest to orthodox hurling. Off the top of my head and I might be completely forgetting some crackers but:

2017 Tipp v Cork, Tipp v Galway, Offaly v Westmeath
2016 Tipp v Galway, Tipp v Kilkenny, Waterford v Kilkenny
2015 Tipp v Galway (Probably the only brilliant game that year)
2014 Limerick v Tipp, Kilkenny v Galway (draw, 2nd half just for the ending), Kilkenny v Tipp both finals.

That's 11 matches, Tipp played in 8, Kilkenny in 5, Galway in 4, Limerick, Cork, Waterford, Offaly and Wedtmeath in 1 each.

Regarding the final. A lot of people wont like what im going to say here. One team will be made from it and one team not.

Galway have 2 Leinster titles in the last few years and that's all, AI appearances but need to make the breakthrough. Mixed in the league too, a victory but also a relegation and no promotion. It's a fear that if they lost, next year could be one of those do nothing years for them and they're back to square one. They might not even get league promotion with Limerick and Dublin to contend with (but they really should).

Waterford have had no real success in Munster or the AI series up to now under McGrath. Real in the sense of trophies, big scalps and AI series victories. 2 Munster semi final victories and 1 AI appearance. Yes they beat Kilkenny this year but made hard work of it and everyone can agree Kilkenny have regressed enormously even from last Sept. 4 times they met Kilkenny in the last 4 years and over 70 minutes only its been lost 2 drawn 2. They havnt beaten Tipperary in those years either having met then twice and shipped one huge defeat there. If they lose to Galway it will be a pretty barren 4 years championship wise under McGrath and they will have met and failed against the top teams nearly each year over those years. Solid top 4 but not good enough to make the big step. League was mixed, 1 win but also had relegation in there too. Yes I know I'm being extremely harsh on Waterford and even Galway right now but these are the levels they will be held to if they are to remain top level, similar to the backlash the likes of tipp get for not putting back to backs together. But at least they've won it twice and dominated Munster in the last decade.

This to me makes it an even more interesting final. Whoever loses will have to accept the last few years as a serious failure. Can any Waterford or Galway person be truly happy with the last few years if their side loses the final?

Utopia Parkway · 18-08-2017 01:25PM

OEP wrote: »

For all the negativity about the sweeper system, the best quality game this year was Waterford v Cork. Waterford's short passing and vision was really top quality, the passes for the first two goals are two perfect examples. Although they had 14 wides I think, the long range shooting was of a high standard. The sending off ruined it as a contest but I think Waterford would have won either way, with the subs coming on and a fitter Waterford finishing strongly.
Galway v Tipp was not a high quality game, it was error strewn and only came to life towards the end. Only for the fact the finish was so exciting, it was not a good game. When Waterford face up to a team like Wexford, it is boring, but that's more down to the fact that teams like Wexford don't have the hurling capabilities of Waterford to attack effectively with a sweeper in place.

I didn't think Cork v Waterford (if you mean the semi-final) was a particularly great game to be honest. The first 10/15 minutes were very good but I thought it slowly deteriorated after that and obviously the last 15 minutes was a bit of a turkey shoot even though the red card had a big part in that. It was a perfect day for hurling too unlike Galway v Tipp which had very wet underfoot conditions.

There were a lot of errors in Galway v Tipp but I thought the intensity level in that game was a notch higher than the other semi-final and also the wet conditions contributed to some of the mistakes.

mountgomery burns · 18-08-2017 02:32PM

I can only speak for myself Dangan, but I thought and said that the reaction in criticism McGrath was getting all year was ridiculous. So its in no way hypocritical to say I don't agree with anyone outside the County going over board lameting the tactic either.

Watched the match back and have to say Donal Ogs insight was fantastic as always, he was sorely missed. Even the analysis of Nashs save and when Loughnane talked about switching hands his response was "Excellent point, Ger". Far more engaging than what you normally see, and especially the nightshow where the boys looked like they'd just come from a funeral.

Bluemallon · 18-08-2017 04:34PM

jr86 wrote: »

I think no matter how any team comes into a final, opposition fans will always pick holes. If galway beat prime kk, tipp and cork it would be something like "they've shown their hand" "they'll be burnt out" "they'll be over-confident" etc.

Don't really see how there's more pressure on galway than Waterford? The fact galway have been there or thereabouts recently would indicate they'll have plenty of chances going forward. Waterford I'm not sure, when was the last time they even won their province? 2010?

CORRECT, and Galway 2008 was it? Remember Galway have a lot to make up going forward as they have never beaten Waterford in the ChampionshipðŸ˜¢

Django99 · 21-08-2017 03:21AM

Going to give the Galway fans a bit of grim reading here.

The current team I would say has its roots in 2012, the team stepped up that year and reached their first semi final since 05 and indeed final. A lot of the current players broke into the team and panel that year, although there have been some top class additions since.

I've looked at the games Galway failed to win from 2012 till now, ie. draws and defeats. Apart from 2013 when Clare and Dublin were winning well at the break, Galway have either been on top or well in every game that they've ended up losing/drawing.

The last three defeats Galway have had they lead at half time, twice against Kilkenny and once against Tipp.

Three times, while trailing at half time, they lost the second half by more than they lost the first half.

When level at half time, they've drawn one and lost the other.

What I'm taking from this is that Galway are unlikely to give Waterford much of a start. The times Galway have been beaten in the last few years, it's been the second half that killed them.

Sometimes that's been because they collapsed completely (Tipp 2014 and Kk in the 2015 All Ireland), other times it's been crucial goals at the right time (2016 v Tipp and 2014 replay v KK).

We often hear that we never know which Galway will turn up, but that doesn't apply to this team for me. They've been very consistent, and 2013 aside they've only lost to KK and Tipp over 5 seasons.

I think the key for Galway will be to get ahead early and stay ahead. If they can stop Waterford from getting any goals, they'll be very hard beaten I feel.

It will be interesting to see who Waterford place close to goal, and how many players they leave forward. The biggest danger to the Galway full back line is probably direct running from Barron and Gleeson. If they can break the Galway half back line, they'll be dangerous. Much easier said than done with the physical presence of McInerny and Mannion. I also think Canning will play around the middle and just in front of McInerny, further contesting that area.

Definitely an intriguing game ahead, and the tactical battle will be crucial.

Django99 · 21-08-2017 04:08AM

To contrast the above, in the same timespan Waterford have only once been leading at half time and went on to lose (v Clare 2013).

They also lost leads to end up drawing twice (Cork 2014 and Kk 2016), but in general it seems of Waterford are going to have a bad day it happens from the start.

One thing that seems noticeable since 2015 when they began to play the sweeper system to full effect, they seem to need a decent lead at half time to close out the game.

Only once have they come from behind at half time to win, v Dublin in 2015.

One of the big criticisms of the sweeper system is that if you go behind, there's very little opportunity to regain a lead. That's probably true to a certain extent, but they won't just abandon it either if things start to go wrong.

Overall I'd definitely feel Galway are justified favourites at 1/2,. It suggests they have arriving 66% chance winning and Waterford 33% not taking a draw into consideration. That seems about right to me.

It all hinges on Waterford being able to create and take some goal chances. Galway haven't needed to score goals so far this year, and they're unlikely to get many opportunities against Waterford, but they can win without getting them.

danganabu · 21-08-2017 10:17AM

Django99 wrote: »

Galway haven't needed to score goals so far this year, and they're unlikely to get many opportunities against Waterford, but they can win without getting them.

I think this is a very pertinent point, one of the perceived weakness in the Galway team is the lack of goals however you don't need goals to beat Waterford, with the way Waterford set up, the ability to score points from distance is what will ultimately decide your faith and right now there is no better team in the country at doing this. Waterford on the other hand are very hit and miss in this department, in their last 3 games they have hit 16, 14 and 16 wides respectively.

buzzinfly83 · 21-08-2017 03:51PM

danganabu wrote: »

I think this is a very pertinent point, one of the perceived weakness in the Galway team is the lack of goals however you don't need goals to beat Waterford, with the way Waterford set up, the ability to score points from distance is what will ultimately decide your faith and right now there is no better team in the country at doing this. Waterford on the other hand are very hit and miss in this department, in their last 3 games they have hit 16, 14 and 16 wides respectively.

I think you have a good point if Galway can pick of their scores from distance it could be a deciding factor in this game. Waterford tend to hit a lot of wides and will need to convert more of these to have a chance of winning. Waterford having been scoring goals lately and if they can continue to do so in this game they will give themselves every chance.

danganabu · 21-08-2017 04:06PM

buzzinfly83 wrote: »

Waterford having been scoring goals lately and if they can continue to do so in this game they will give themselves every chance.

Daithi Burke V Brick could be massive in the outcome of this game, Burke is undoubtedly the best full back in the country (competition aint great you would have to concede) and Brick has been outstanding in his last two games.

All Ireland SHC Final (formerly SHC thread) - READ MOD NOTE POST #1

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