All Ireland SHC Final (formerly SHC thread) - READ MOD NOTE POST #1

Utopia Parkway · 14-08-2017 04:43PM

buzzinfly83 wrote: »

What's peoples opinions on the final. Galway will go in big favourites but does anyone give Waterford a chance. If the two Gleesons are out it looks like a really tough task.

Galway will be favourites but I don't think they'll be big favourites. Waterford were fairly impressive yesterday. At least towards the end of the match and they are a tough nut to crack. Cork and Galway are very different teams though.

HurlingRanker · 14-08-2017 04:55PM

I still think Waterford have every chance. They overcame a major blow to get to the final in TDB's absence, his return to the side will help offset the suspesion(s?).

McGrath has Waterford playing to a system which the panel are well tuned to at this stage, I think it's easier to transition players in and out of a well drilled system once the players buy into it and understand it. The Gleeson's will be a loss for sure but McGrath doesn't get the credit he deserves for what he has created there, the discussion of their tactics irritates me - we hear all about it's weaknesses, all about how it's supposedly awful to watch, but where's the balance? Not enough said about the strengths and merits of their tactical approach, and little to no credit given when it works. Hurling had to develop beyond 15 on 15, man on man, 6 forwards 6 backs sometime. In a way it's amazing it took well over 100 years for that to creep in to the GAA.

I've a feeling Galway will show up on the day, there'll be no stage fright, they've played two finals and a replay in the last 5 years, they have that edge on experience, and they have been a very solid outfit this year, there have been more exciting Galway teams in recent memory but there appears to be a backbone and resilience to them now that they were perhaps lacking before. If Waterford turn up with their heads straight they will make this a very tight affair indeed, they used TDB as a motivating factor yesterday, they should do likewise with the Gleesons, and they should have a chip on their shoulder regarding all the moaning about their style of play, they have a point to prove. McGrath is a shrewd operator, I reckon he'll have them in the right frame of mind.

I'm hoping for Galway as they've been my second team for a long time now (got rather attached to the place when I went to college there years ago!), gonna be a really tight one though in my opinion.

Hitchens · 14-08-2017 05:46PM

bruschi wrote: »

some serious clutching at straws. By accident?

And on a slightly different point that is also being brought up, it is no way comparable to the Tuohy incident. Tuohy was fending off Maher, he hit the ball forward and was pushing Maher back with his spare arm. His hand is at the back of Mahers helmet, but he doesnt make any grab at it. He does seem to wedge it a bit, but makes no motion to pull it or to clench his fingers into it. Mahers straps pop open then, probably due to Tuhy pushing against the helmet and Maher moving to get away from him. But it was in the play of the game, its not like Tuohy went looking to grab him by the helmet. It would be, to me, incidental contact with the helmet rather than intentional contact with the helmet.

Gleesons is the opposite. His hand is around Meades neck, and as he gets up, his palm is open raking up the side of his helmet. He then grabs the face guard and pulls the helmet clean off. Notably, the straps do not open, making it harder to take a helmet off. If the straps opened, you could say it would have been a factor, the fact the straps remain shut means he would have had to put greater force into taking the helmet off Meade.

I cant see how the GAA can get past this one without suspending him. I'd rather they didnt. But at the same time the reason the rule is in is because it can cause serious injury to rip the helmet off someone, as Fanning found out when Stephen Banville did it a few years ago. What Gleeson did is the exact reason there is a rule for it. Why, with the week that was in it with De Burca, would he do something like that though. Utterly stupid. It'll be much less of a final without him in it.

I hope he plays, I just cant see how he can though.

If Gleeson is suspended then Touhy has to be as well, both pulled the helmet off the opponent. Whether they meant it or not is immaterial.

danganabu · 14-08-2017 05:50PM

Hitchens wrote: »

If Gleeson is suspended then Touhy has to be as well, both pulled the helmet off the opponent. Whether they meant it or not is immaterial.

Please read the rule book before commenting.

Bonniedog · 14-08-2017 05:53PM

Galway @ 1/2 to win the final. Bit short. 4/6 chance maybe. Won't directly impact on final but Waterford have turned Galway over a few times when Galway were expected to win.

It seems clear that beating the Cats has given Waterford a massive injection of confidence.

Tactically they did something similar to Cork that Donegal footballers did to Dubs in 2014: outfoxed them on the line. Cork seemed incapable of adapting to restriction of their puck out strategy. Arguably the game was still in melting pot until the sending off of Cahalane but I reckon Waterford would have still won by a few points.

C__MC · 14-08-2017 06:04PM

John fogarty on twitter states that the Owens has the final descion on weather gleeson is to be charged. For the good of his refereeing career, he has to state he didn't deal with the incident. Owens is a very poor ref, I remember him doing a bottle job on johhny coen in the 15 final.

14-08-2017 06:13PM

C__MC wrote: »

John fogarty on twitter states that the Owens has the final descion on weather gleeson is to be charged. For the good of his refereeing career, he has to state he didn't deal with the incident. Owens is a very poor ref, I remember him doing a bottle job on johhny coen in the 15 final.

He didn't bottle anything.

His decision on Coen was consistent with Calahane yesterday.

So unless you think that should have been a red card then both were dealt with appropriately.

C__MC · 14-08-2017 06:17PM

gilberto_eire wrote: »

He didn't bottle anything.

His decision on Coen was consistent with Calahane yesterday.

So unless you think that should have been a red card then both were dealt with appropriately.

Won't open up that debate again but we will beg to differ. Defo a red that day for coen

Tombo2001 · 14-08-2017 06:18PM

KayJay86 wrote: »

I wonder how they allocate 200 tickets to residents? Have they a ballot or something?

100 pairs of tickets go out. If you live within 1.5 Kilometres; and you need to as they post the tickets to the address you say you live in.

There's 15-20000 people in the catchment, so its less than 1 in 100 chance of getting a ticket if you live in the area.

Utopia Parkway · 14-08-2017 06:34PM

Hitchens wrote: »

If Gleeson is suspended then Touhy has to be as well, both pulled the helmet off the opponent. Whether they meant it or not is immaterial.

"Deliberate" is part of the relevant rule.

mountgomery burns · 14-08-2017 06:34PM

gilberto_eire wrote: »

He didn't bottle anything.

His decision on Coen was consistent with Calahane yesterday.

So unless you think that should have been a red card then both were dealt with appropriately.

Both were red card offenses. Coens was probably even worse than Cahalanes yesterday.

Bonniedog · 14-08-2017 06:40PM

Gleeson's offence was worse than either of Cahalane's but he had to be carded for the second foul so he can't complain.

Ripping someone's helmet off is potentially very dangerous act and warrants a straight red imho. Saw chap in club game here nearly lose ear over same thing.

Hitchens · 14-08-2017 06:41PM

danganabu wrote: »

Please read the rule book before commenting.

5.19 To behave in any way which is dangerous to an
opponent, including to deliberately pull on or
take hold of a faceguard or any other part of an
opponent’s helmet.

the only person who knows for certain if it's deliberate is the offending player

Joe_ Public · 14-08-2017 06:50PM

Hitchens wrote: »

5.19 To behave in any way which is dangerous to an
opponent, including to deliberately pull on or
take hold of a faceguard or any other part of an
opponent’s helmet.

the only person who knows for certain if it's deliberate is the offending player

Sure all we have to do now is ask the accused player whether it was deliberate or not and problem solved. No one will ever be suspended!

Also note the phrase "take hold of a faceguard" so, in theory, you don't even have to pull the helmet off to fall foul of the rule. Of course, everything is simple in the GAA only in theory!

mountgomery burns · 14-08-2017 06:53PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Sure all we have to do now is ask the accused player whether it was deliberate or not and problem solved. No one will ever be suspended!

Also note the phrase "take hold of a faceguard" so, in theory, you don't even have to pull the helmet off to fall foul of the rule. Of course, everything is simple in the GAA only in theory!

Or interfere with any other part of the helmet, so if tou deliberately unclip the strap its a straight red card if you read the rule literally. This is where I'll be told common sense applies no doubt

Right2Write · 14-08-2017 07:31PM

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

The Gleeson helmet pull is easily the most blatant and clear cut of any of the recent incidents. It would be kinda ridiculous if he got away with it. That said he very well might but it would take an almighty fudge from the GAA.

Ceist MIf it was as blatant and clear cut as many people are making out, then why didn't the officials deal with it there & then? The fact that they didn't whilst reading the game in real time surely indicates doubt.

Anonymou · 14-08-2017 07:45PM

Hitchens wrote: »

5.19 To behave in any way which is dangerous to an
opponent, including to deliberately pull on or
take hold of a faceguard or any other part of an
opponent’s helmet.

the only person who knows for certain if it's deliberate is the offending player

Sorry if I'm reading it wrong, but my interpretation of this rule is that the act doesn't even need to be deliberate no? It says "to behave in any way which is dangerous...including to deliberately pull etc...". It says including deliberate acts but it is not limited to them. Whether its accidental or deliberate, there is no denying that pulling the helmet is dangerous.

PTH2009 · 14-08-2017 08:01PM

I wonder will it be the 1992 All stars or the 1992 Kilkenny team getting honoured on final day ???

letowski · 14-08-2017 10:03PM

Poor_old_gill wrote:

When will a decision on A.Gleeson be made?

Tuohy knew Wednesday night so probably a similar time frame, depends on Owens report (gospel).

letowski · 14-08-2017 10:03PM

Poor_old_gill wrote:

When will a decision on A.Gleeson be made?

Tuohy knew Wednesday night so probably a similar time frame, depends on Owens report (gospel).

TheRiverman · 14-08-2017 10:10PM

Maybe it's an unfair comparison,but Cristiano Ronaldo was sent off last night after getting two yellow cards.He pushed the referee after he sent him off.Today he was given a five match ban,so within about eighteen hours it was dealt with.When,if ever will we get the GAA dealing with disciplinary issues that fast?

Realt Dearg Sec · 14-08-2017 10:28PM

TheRiverman wrote: »

Maybe it's an unfair comparison,but Cristiano Ronaldo was sent off last night after getting two yellow cards.He pushed the referee after he sent him off.Today he was given a five match ban,so within about eighteen hours it was dealt with.When,if ever will we get the GAA dealing with disciplinary issues that fast?

Same as the season schedule. They drag it out over months and months and months with teams going four and five weeks without a match, then when there's a draw somehow they still don't have any spare time to fit it in and never seem to have a contingency plan in place for any eventuality (often they don't even seem to know for sure what will happen in the case of a draw).

Ditto with disciplinary procedures. They had literally weeks on end to sort out TdB's situation and yet there he was driving home from Dublin in the early hours of the Friday morning before the match, only getting a decision a couple of days before it was to go ahead. There doesn't seem to be any good reason for any of this.

kala85 · 14-08-2017 10:35PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Same as the season schedule. They drag it out over months and months and months with teams going four and five weeks without a match, then when there's a draw somehow they still don't have any spare time to fit it in and never seem to have a contingency plan in place for any eventuality (often they don't even seem to know for sure what will happen in the case of a draw).

Ditto with disciplinary procedures. They had literally weeks on end to sort out TdB's situation and yet there he was driving home from Dublin in the early hours of the Friday morning before the match, only getting a decision a couple of days before it was to go ahead. There doesn't seem to be any good reason for any of this.

I am convinced that they deliberately do this on purpose so that there is not enough time to challenge the dra decision in the high court.

If the dra decision was successfully challenged in the high court, we would be back to court cases again and the whole discipline procedure would fall apart.

Also how did diarmuid Connolly get off, at his dra hearing two years ago.

mickmackey1 · 14-08-2017 10:49PM

PTH2009 wrote: »

I wonder will it be the 1992 All stars or the 1992 Kilkenny team getting honoured on final day ???

Don't see any reason why it wouldn't be Kilkenny '92.

skytl · 14-08-2017 10:52PM

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0813/897163-gleeson-helmet-incident/
http://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/gaa/hurling/hurling-news/eddie-brennan-doesnt-believe-brian-10772418
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0724/892714-brennan/
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/henry-shefflin-sweeper-system-is-limited-and-will-not-deliver-september-silverware-360299.html
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0811/896636-richie-power-column/
http://www.punditarena.com/gaa/elark...ntenders/#umn/
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gae...them-1.3121405
http://www.punditarena.com/gaa/kdaly...ting-kilkenny/
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/g...ls-444543.html
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gael...-34888280.html

Nonsense and anti Waterford punditry from ex Kilkenny players

Joe_ Public · 14-08-2017 10:57PM

kala85 wrote: »

I am convinced that they deliberately do this on purpose so that there is not enough time to challenge the dra decision in the high court.

If the dra decision was successfully challenged in the high court, we would be back to court cases again and the whole discipline procedure would fall apart.

Also how did diarmuid Connolly get off, at his dra hearing two years ago.

Cant recall exactly but he escaped on a technicality, the process is so laborious that his army of lawyers was able to pinpoint some minor clause or loophole that wasn't fully complied with by the disciplinary bodies so the whole thing collapsed and he was free to play.

Difference with GAA and soccer as mentioned above is that in most cases, a soccer suspension merely involves missing a tiny part of the season while a GAA suspension means a player possibly missing out on the biggest game of the year. So inevitably they're going to exhaust every avenue and look for every available loophole and there's only so much you can do to counter it.

C__MC · 14-08-2017 10:59PM

skytl wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/08...lmet-incident/
http://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/gaa/...brian-10772418
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0724/892714-brennan/
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/g...re-360299.html
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/08...chie-power-col
http://www.punditarena.com/gaa/elark...ntenders/#umn/
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gae...them-1.3121405
http://www.punditarena.com/gaa/kdaly...ting-kilkenny/
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/g...ls-444543.html
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gael...-34888280.html

Nonsense and anti Waterford punditry from ex Kilkenny players

It's amazing how vocal the KK lads are post their inter county days. A stark contrast to their playing days

adrian522 · 14-08-2017 10:59PM

You need to work on your posting of links. Are ex Kilkenny players not entitled to their opinions or is it only pro-Waterford opinions that are valid in your eyes?

Robson99 · 14-08-2017 10:59PM

Squiggle wrote: »

If they look back at it it's hard to see how AG won't be banned. And looking at it in slow motion you can only call it one way which is what Brennan did on the Sunday Game. Folks on Twitter last night were calling Brennan a shít stirrer but in fairness even John Mullane couldn't dress this one up :pac:.

He ccould have taken the eye out of his head. Why did he need to do it. It was deliberate, malicious and cowardly
The rule should be for pulling on the guard. Its the eyes and mouth you need to protect.
If Gleeson gets away with this they would be as well to forget about wearing helmets altogether

The_Kew_Tour · 14-08-2017 11:01PM

Whoever loses the final could set them back a few years before they have another crack.

Thats why I think this is a intriguing final, cause whoever loses will find it very tough to come back from it.

I always heard some stories about Waterford in 1963 and that some members of that team took bribes for that AI. I heard that from Waterford people and where im from as one of those alleged player's lived and died in North Cork. Of course nothing beats a good GAA stories.

All Ireland SHC Final (formerly SHC thread) - READ MOD NOTE POST #1

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