Irish Border and Brexit

knipex · 10-08-2017 11:32AM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

I'm just outlining a simple fact. If the UK and Ireland both don't want a hard border and have been clear about it and then the EU insists that there must be one by virtue of its own policy, you cannot insist that this has been imposed by the UK.

That's a very simple point. It is dishonest of posters on this thread to claim the UK wants a hard border. The Government have been clear on this.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Now your just begin awkward.

The UK wants outside the EU and the customs union. That means the UK wants a border.

End of story..

You cannot be outside the customs union and not have a border..

The very idea is nonsense..

Putting the border on the Island of Ireland or outside of the Island of Ireland depends on Northern Ireland's position with respect the the EU. If its in the EU and customs union then no border, if its not .. then border..

Charles Babbage · 10-08-2017 11:33AM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

I'm just outlining a simple fact. If the UK and Ireland both don't want a hard border and have been clear about it and then the EU insists that there must be one by virtue of its own policy, you cannot insist that this has been imposed by the UK.

That's a very simple point. It is dishonest of posters on this thread to claim the UK wants a hard border. The Government have been clear on this.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The misleading presentation of information has been made again and again. The present situation works, if the UK changes this to something that doesn't work then it and it alone is responsible.

solodeogloria · 10-08-2017 11:36AM

knipex wrote: »

Now your just begin awkward.

The UK wants outside the EU and the customs union. That means the UK wants a border.

End of story..

You cannot be outside the customs union and not have a border..

The very idea is nonsense..

Putting the border on the Island of Ireland or outside of the Island of Ireland depends on Northern Ireland's position with respect the the EU. If its in the EU and customs union then no border, if its not .. then border..

Good afternoon!

The UK have said they want an open border. Claiming otherwise is dishonest.

The UK are open to discussing alternative trade and customs arrangements with the EU even if it rejects membership of preexisting structures.

The UK won't be the one insisting on border posts. If anyone that will be the EU.

That's the truth. I won't lie and claim otherwise.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

jm08 · 10-08-2017 11:41AM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

The UK have said they want an open border. Claiming otherwise is dishonest.

That is having your cake and eating it. The UK wants access to the EU, but doesn't want to contribute anything to it or abide by any of its rules & regs. Its just not on.

Chips Lovell · 10-08-2017 11:41AM

The UK government has said it doesn't want a hard border. What it hasn't be been clear about is how it's going to avoid one if it opts out of all of the institutions that allow for one.

It's not even a case of wanting its cake and eating it. It's more like it doesn't even know what the cake is yet.

Geuze · 10-08-2017 11:51AM

By wanting to leave the Customs Union, the UK is causing there to be a hard border.

If the UK don't want a hard border, then don't leave the Customs Union.

blanch152 · 10-08-2017 12:14PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

I'm just outlining a simple fact. If the UK and Ireland both don't want a hard border and have been clear about it and then the EU insists that there must be one by virtue of its own policy, you cannot insist that this has been imposed by the UK.

That's a very simple point. It is dishonest of posters on this thread to claim the UK wants a hard border. The Government have been clear on this.

The EU can claim this is a consequence but they can't say that they won't be imposing the consequence if this happens. Moreover the EU can be considered to be letting down its own member state if this happens.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The UK does want a border - it voted for one.

blanch152 · 10-08-2017 12:17PM

jm08 wrote: »

I don't think that is the point at all. The point is that it will be impossible to maintain an invisible (or even a visible) customs border between NI and ROI/EU and the whole border area will become bandit country again. Now this is not good for the ROI or NI.

There is smuggling and criminality everywhere there is a customs border in the world. No doubt some of the Great Republicans in South Armagh will be rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of a return to greater profitability - cigarette smuggling and diesel laundering doesn't produce enough.

However, that is a long way from the position advocated that the North will rise up in support of criminal terrorists.

jm08 · 10-08-2017 01:00PM

blanch152 wrote: »

There is smuggling and criminality everywhere there is a customs border in the world. No doubt some of the Great Republicans in South Armagh will be rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of a return to greater profitability - cigarette smuggling and diesel laundering doesn't produce enough.

However, that is a long way from the position advocated that the North will rise up in support of criminal terrorists.

You think that only republicans will only be interested in making money out of the border with NI? Northern Ireland is already a backdoor for illegals into the UK. And it will only get worse as soon as FoM is gone (and a ready supply of cheap labour from eastern Europe is cut off).

Then take into consideration the economic hit that NI is going to have to take once it exits the EU, you will end up with some very angry people who won't take it sitting down.

Jim2007 · 10-08-2017 01:40PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

The UK have said they want an open border. Claiming otherwise is dishonest.

And claiming you want an open border, without making a proposal, acting in such a way to make it impossible is not???

If the UK does not enter into customs union with the EU, then the minute they sign traded deal with the US or whoever, the open border is gone. And on the other side, to control immigration they are going to have to roll out some kind of border, because we will not be doing for them at Irish ports after BREXIT.

knipex · 10-08-2017 02:23PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

The UK have said they want an open border. Claiming otherwise is dishonest.

The UK are open to discussing alternative trade and customs arrangements with the EU even if it rejects membership of preexisting structures.

The UK won't be the one insisting on border posts. If anyone that will be the EU.

That's the truth. I won't lie and claim otherwise.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

You sound like a brexiter.

UK wants out of the customs union. UK wants to end free movement.. therefore UK wants border controls and customs.

UK was not kicked out of EU, UK was not encouraged to leave EU, UK voted to leave EU.

You can delude yourself all you want buy no one is buying that lien of crap..

solodeogloria · 10-08-2017 03:27PM

knipex wrote: »

You sound like a brexiter.

UK wants out of the customs union. UK wants to end free movement.. therefore UK wants border controls and customs.

UK was not kicked out of EU, UK was not encouraged to leave EU, UK voted to leave EU.

You can delude yourself all you want buy no one is buying that lien of crap..

Good afternoon!

It's not delusional to be honest about the Government's position. It's also not delusional to point out that the leave campaign were unanimous about keeping the Northern Ireland border open. People didn't vote to leave the EU based on a hard border in Northern Ireland.

Yes the UK voted to leave the EU but there are alternative customs arrangements that don't require a hard border and there are alternative ways of controlling illegal immigration in Northern Ireland including employment checks.

I'm simply trying to present the truth. Which is at no time did anyone desire a hard border and if one is imposed it will be because the EU desire for it to be imposed.

There's still hope it won't come to that.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

blanch152 · 10-08-2017 03:56PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

It's not delusional to be honest about the Government's position. It's also not delusional to point out that the leave campaign were unanimous about keeping the Northern Ireland border open. People didn't vote to leave the EU based on a hard border in Northern Ireland.

Well, that only reinforces the case that the UK population didn't know what they were voting for. Once you withdraw from free movement and a customs union, a hard border is inevitable. Unless you are arrogant enough to believe that Ireland should follow the UK out of the EU just because big brother UK decided it was a good idea.

solodeogloria wrote: »

Yes the UK voted to leave the EU but there are alternative customs arrangements that don't require a hard border and there are alternative ways of controlling illegal immigration in Northern Ireland including employment checks.

I'm simply trying to present the truth. Which is at no time did anyone desire a hard border and if one is imposed it will be because the EU desire for it to be imposed.

There's still hope it won't come to that.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The alternative customs arrangements require membership of the customs union. The alternative ways of controlling illegal immigration require a lot of expense and a compulsory national identity card, both here and in the UK.

Is that what they voted for?

FrancieBrady · 10-08-2017 04:03PM

blanch152 wrote: »

However, that is a long way from the position advocated that the North will rise up in support of criminal terrorists.

The north will spiral into conflict.
Whether paramilitaries get involved (i believe they will) is moot.

The question is, does anyone care enough to stop what they know will happen, happening.

An Irish government stood idly by last time and the IRA (who at that time had no interest in getting involved) filled the vacuum.

The conflict in the north only ended when both governments lived up to their responsibilities.

blanch152 · 10-08-2017 04:22PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The north will spiral into conflict.
Whether paramilitaries get involved (i believe they will) is moot.

The question is, does anyone care enough to stop what they know will happen, happening.

An Irish government stood idly by last time and the IRA (who at that time had no interest in getting involved) filled the vacuum.

The conflict in the north only ended when both governments lived up to their responsibilities.

The north won't spiral into conflict - that is hyperbole. Talk of the Irish government standing idly by is nonsense.

The republicans who talk about the north returning to conflict as in the 1960s and 1970s are the equivalent of the old dinosaur unionists who still won't support marriage equality. Different issue, same old tired sectarian ideas and politics.

The world has moved on, time for the dinosaurs to realise it.

solodeogloria · 10-08-2017 04:26PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, that only reinforces the case that the UK population didn't know what they were voting for. Once you withdraw from free movement and a customs union, a hard border is inevitable. Unless you are arrogant enough to believe that Ireland should follow the UK out of the EU just because big brother UK decided it was a good idea.

The alternative customs arrangements require membership of the customs union. The alternative ways of controlling illegal immigration require a lot of expense and a compulsory national identity card, both here and in the UK.

Is that what they voted for?

Good evening!

According to whom on both counts?

UK border controls can be handled with passports and visas (in the UK these already come with biometric ID cards) on registering for employment in NI or employers checks. There's a legal obligation to report violations to the Home Office. There's no need for everyone to have an ID card.

The UK and the EU can discuss flexible ways of handling customs without a hard border during the negotiations.

I'm not suggesting Ireland should leave the EU at all.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

knipex · 10-08-2017 04:27PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

It's not delusional to be honest about the Government's position. It's also not delusional to point out that the leave campaign were unanimous about keeping the Northern Ireland border open. People didn't vote to leave the EU based on a hard border in Northern Ireland.

You cannto elave a customs union without imposing a border. Thats a fact. They can say what ever the like, as politician's tend to do, but their actions and the actions of the UK public are clear,,

solodeogloria wrote: »

Yes the UK voted to leave the EU but there are alternative customs arrangements that don't require a hard border and there are alternative ways of controlling illegal immigration in Northern Ireland including employment checks.

Yes there are if the UK are willing to play by the rules. The UK do not want to play be the rules,. They do not want free movement of people, they do not want the European court of justice, They do not want to be part of the customs union.

solodeogloria wrote: »

I'm simply trying to present the truth. Which is at no time did anyone desire a hard border and if one is imposed it will be because the EU desire for it to be imposed.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

No You are spouting propaganda and blaming other for the UK's decisions.

UK voted out of EU and customs union..
UK doe not want free movement of people
UK does not want to be bound by ECJ.
UK wants out of the European project.

Not Ireland, not Europe the UK..

You cannot be out of the union and have access. You cannot do trade deals with the US that allows them to export goods not allowed in Europe and then try and remain border free. The fact that you believed you could and continue to believe you can is not Europe's problem.. Blame Boris, Nigel et al. They lied to you..

Europe tried to explain it, Business leaders tried to explain it,. academics tried to explain it, journalists but you listened to Nigel and Borris.

blanch152 · 10-08-2017 04:27PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

According to whom on both counts?

UK border controls can be handled with passports and visas (in the UK these already come with biometric on registering for employment in NI or employers checks. There's a legal obligation to report violations to the Home Office. There's no need for everyone to have an ID card.

The UK and the EU can discuss flexible ways of handling customs without a hard border during the negotiations.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

If it isn't compulsory to carry a national identity card, spot-checks are useless. I'll be back with it tomorrow, mate, says the illegal immigrant, but you'll never see him again.

jm08 · 10-08-2017 04:28PM

blanch152 wrote: »

The north won't spiral into conflict - that is hyperbole. Talk of the Irish government standing idly by is nonsense.

The republicans who talk about the north returning to conflict as in the 1960s and 1970s are the equivalent of the old dinosaur unionists who still won't support marriage equality. Different issue, same old tired sectarian ideas and politics.

The world has moved on, time for the dinosaurs to realise it.

So as long as they don't start killing each other again you are willing to turn your back on NI if a hard border is introduced on the island?

blanch152 · 10-08-2017 04:30PM

jm08 wrote: »

So as long as they don't start killing each other again you are willing to turn your back on NI if a hard border is introduced on the island?

A united Ireland is decades away at best. The UK rejoining the EU will happen quicker. So how will we be turning our back on NI?

solodeogloria · 10-08-2017 04:34PM

knipex wrote: »

You cannto elave a customs union without imposing a border. Thats a fact. They can say what ever the like, as politician's tend to do, but their actions and the actions of the UK public are clear,,

Yes there are if the UK are willing to play by the rules. The UK do not want to play be the rules,. They do not want free movement of people, they do not want the European court of justice, They do not want to be part of the customs union.

No You are spouting propaganda and blaming other for the UK's decisions.

UK voted out of EU and customs union..
UK doe not want free movement of people
UK does not want to be bound by ECJ.
UK wants out of the European project.

Not Ireland, not Europe the UK..

You cannot be out of the union and have access. You cannot do trade deals with the US that allows them to export goods not allowed in Europe and then try and remain border free. The fact that you believed you could and continue to believe you can is not Europe's problem.. Blame Boris, Nigel et al. They lied to you..

Europe tried to explain it, Business leaders tried to explain it,. academics tried to explain it, journalists but you listened to Nigel and Borris.

Good evening!

You're entitled to get as irritated about my point as you wish but it's true both that the UK didn't vote for a hard border and that the EU can be flexible or recognise Northern Ireland as a special case or use technology to pre-register goods vehicles for customs. There are other options which I hope to see discussed.

I don't accept your view that Ireland isn't the EU's problem. As a member state of course it is.

It isn't propaganda to say that if Ireland doesn't want the border and if the UK doesn't want a border and one gets imposed by the EU then it is the EU that wants a border.

I'm sorry but I won't lie for you.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

FrancieBrady · 10-08-2017 04:35PM

blanch152 wrote: »

The north won't spiral into conflict - that is hyperbole. Talk of the Irish government standing idly by is nonsense.

The republicans who talk about the north returning to conflict as in the 1960s and 1970s are the equivalent of the old dinosaur unionists who still won't support marriage equality. Different issue, same old tired sectarian ideas and politics.

The world has moved on, time for the dinosaurs to realise it.

This would be hilarious if it wasn't so dangerous.

So if we try to have a UI (or even a discussion of it) unionists will bring about some typ of armageddon and therefore talk of a UI is not allowed.
But the re-imposition of a border that underscores the core of the problem, i.e. partition, will not bring two communities back into conflict again?

Flagrant refusal to accept how symbolic a border is and, as said, a dangerous ignorance.

Luckily the EU, the British and the Irish are fully aware of the dangers it poses and hopefully will act on it and use some imagination.

jm08 · 10-08-2017 04:37PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

According to whom on both counts?

UK border controls can be handled with passports and visas (in the UK these already come with biometric ID cards) on registering for employment in NI or employers checks. There's a legal obligation to report violations to the Home Office. There's no need for everyone to have an ID card.

Today's Guardian:

Tens of thousands of modern slavery victims in UK, NCA says

Wide range of cases include human trafficking and prostitution, as well as people forced to work at car washes

They have a slavery hotline now in the UK and they have 300 live policing operations for slavery.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/10/modern-slavery-uk-nca-human-trafficking-prostitution

I'm not suggesting Ireland should leave the EU at all.

Plenty of Brexit supporters have suggested that as a solution. Jeffrey Donaldson seems to think that the UK is Ireland's biggest export market.

paul2013 · 10-08-2017 04:39PM

Question for you all, it's slightly complicated. If you travel through the UK after BREXIT has been completed and the English are out of the EU. What does it mean for an Irish registered car in Calais? Does it mean we are subject to Custom checks entering a non EU country! and are we going to be the subject of delays entering the UK as I Know people who travel through Calais port with live Irish livestock and onto Italy and France or will the Irish get waiver at the Eurostar train?

jm08 · 10-08-2017 04:41PM

blanch152 wrote: »

A united Ireland is decades away at best. The UK rejoining the EU will happen quicker. So how will we be turning our back on NI?

By allowing a stupid border to be erected again. The reason this island has been such a mess for most of the last 100 years is because of that border. The most prosperous time for the whole island when that border has been invisible (the last 20 years).

solodeogloria · 10-08-2017 04:42PM

jm08 wrote: »

Plenty of Brexit supporters have suggested that as a solution. Jeffrey Donaldson seems to think that the UK is Ireland's biggest export market.

Good evening!

Last post for today. I don't know how the prostitution bit related to my post.

However, it's worth pointing out I'm entitled to a different view to Jeffery Donaldson. You need to take my posts from my perspective on the basis of what I say and I'll do the same for you.

I'm Irish, I'm a Eurosceptic and want to see a good Brexit deal for both parties. I voted remain in the referendum, but I'm convinced that the vote must be respected and the UK must come out.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

First Up · 10-08-2017 04:51PM

paul2013 wrote:

Question for you all, it's slightly complicated. If you travel through the UK after BREXIT has been completed and the English are out of the EU. What does it mean for an Irish registered car in Calais? Does it mean we are subject to Custom checks entering a non EU country! and are we going to be the subject of delays entering the UK as I Know people who travel through Calais port with live Irish livestock and onto Italy and France or will the Irish get waiver at the Eurostar train?

Travel between any EU and non-EU country in either direction is subject to customs. It doesn't matter what your nationality - or car registration. (Switzerland and Monaco are exceptions but I doubt the UK's arrangements will replicate theirs.)

jm08 · 10-08-2017 06:03PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

Last post for today. I don't know how the prostitution bit related to my post.

I brought up the subject of slavery as its topical today in the UK to illustrate the point that not all UK citizens are law abiding and I wouldn't depend too much on legal employment controlling emigration.

Jim2007 · 10-08-2017 06:25PM

jm08 wrote: »

The most prosperous time for the whole island when that border has been invisible (the last 20 years).

Hmmm, it might just be because we are able to trade in an undervalued currency and have dramatically increase our exports, thus earning badly needed revenues.

Jim2007 · 10-08-2017 06:29PM

paul2013 wrote: »

Question for you all, it's slightly complicated. If you travel through the UK after BREXIT has been completed and the English are out of the EU. What does it mean for an Irish registered car in Calais? Does it mean we are subject to Custom checks entering a non EU country! and are we going to be the subject of delays entering the UK as I Know people who travel through Calais port with live Irish livestock and onto Italy and France or will the Irish get waiver at the Eurostar train?

Yes of course, if you enter the EU from a third country you will be subject to controls. But you should also be aware that any goods flowing into Italy as you describe are already subject to Swiss control when the trucks are loaded on to the trains for the journey through the alps to Italy and subject to Italian control when offloaded at the Swiss/Italian border.

Irish Border and Brexit

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