Season 7 Episode 4 "The Spoils of War" - "Non book readers"

Daith · 09-08-2017 09:59AM

Penn wrote: »

I agree that it makes absolute sense that Arya is now a deadly assassin/fighter.

That being said, they should have shown more of her fighting training in Seasons 5 & 6 rather than constantly just cleaning dead bodies and being questioned about being No One. Would have made that story a lot more palatable too.

Yet you needed that for her "kill a person, take their face and impersonate them" part of her abilities? Becoming "no one" so to speak. Her Walder Frey was pretty spot on. I guess that isn't generating much complaints though.

Penn · 09-08-2017 10:06AM

Daith wrote: »

Yet you needed that for her "kill a person, take their face and impersonate them" part of her abilities? Becoming "no one" so to speak. Her Walder Frey was pretty spot on. I guess that isn't generating much complaints though.

Definitely, you needed to show all that too. My issue is we saw so much of that but so little fighting. Only a few shots of The Waif beating her when she was blind, then when it comes to their actual fight, their fight happens off-screen in darkness.

Her fighting Brienne is really the first time we've seen her properly fighting, so it's a bit of a leap in ability between what we saw training with The Waif to being able to beat Brienne, who in the past has beaten Loras, Jaime and The Hound (though both Jaime and The Hound were already weakened before their fights with her).

I don't think it's that big a deal, but I think just a few more shots of her learning how to fight peppered through Seasons 5 & 6 would have made her story in those seasons better and negated any complaints people now have about her fighting ability.

seamus · 09-08-2017 10:45AM

Watched it last night. Agree with griffin above, I found a lot of the Jon/Dany scenes quite weak and poorly written. Dunno, maybe they're trying to demonstrate sexual tension between them by making them really wooden or something.

I was a little disappointed with the very end. GoT has never really done the miraculous escape stuff. When someone's number was up, it was up. Or when they escaped, it was believable. Whereas Bronn manages to deftly dodge the Dothraki horde, and abandons his money to serve Jamie and risk his life to try kill the dragon. And at the last second dives off the weapon and avoids being cooked alive. And then Jamie is about to be cooked and someone (Bronn or Dickon I assume) appears out of nowhere to save him.

It's just not the same GoT-esque stuff that we've seen. A major character hasn't died in a long time. Important side-characters have died, such as the Tyrells, but Tommen is arguably the last big character to die. Even then I wouldn't call him a major influencing character. Ramsay Bolton, but then that was inevitable.

Maybe it's more fatigue but it seems like there haven't been any surprise or really upsetting deaths since Jon Snow was killed. Everyone else who has died kind of seemed to be going that way. Jamie or Bronn dying this episode would have been a major incident.

Harambe · 09-08-2017 10:50AM

seamus wrote: »

I was a little disappointed with the very end. GoT has never really done the miraculous escape stuff.

I was saying this yesterday to a friend.
I reckon if George R.R. Martin was still involved we would have seen a major character die in that scene. If not Jaime, Danny or Drogon then definitely Bronn.

leggo · 09-08-2017 10:55AM

I'd say the reason for that is because there are so few actual pivotal characters left, they need to save them for certain spots still to come. It's not really a great excuse because what made GOT great was that it didn't care what we thought the plot 'needed', if a person would realistically die in real life then they'd die here, television rules be damned. But even if Jaime and Bronn needed to survive to have an awkward reunion with Tyrion, why not kill off Dickon or Randyll for the sake of one important character dying in perhaps the most devastating battle they've done on the show?

CMOTDibbler · 09-08-2017 10:58AM

seamus wrote: »

I was a little disappointed with the very end. GoT has never really done the miraculous escape stuff. When someone's number was up, it was up. Or when they escaped, it was believable. Whereas Bronn manages to deftly dodge the Dothraki horde, and abandons his money to serve Jamie and risk his life to try kill the dragon. And at the last second dives off the weapon and avoids being cooked alive. And then Jamie is about to be cooked and someone (Bronn or Dickon I assume) appears out of nowhere to save him.

It's just not the same GoT-esque stuff that we've seen. A major character hasn't died in a long time. Important side-characters have died, such as the Tyrells, but Tommen is arguably the last big character to die. Even then I wouldn't call him a major influencing character. Ramsay Bolton, but then that was inevitable.

Maybe it's more fatigue but it seems like there haven't been any surprise or really upsetting deaths since Jon Snow was killed. Everyone else who has died kind of seemed to be going that way. Jamie or Bronn dying this episode would have been a major incident.

There comes a point where you have to stop killing off characters or there'll be no-one left at the end. Ha! 'No-one'.

If somebody is still alive at this stage, chances are they have an important part to play. We've only nine episodes left don't forget.

EagererBeaver · 09-08-2017 11:01AM

seamus wrote: »

GoT has never really done the miraculous escape stuff. When someone's number was up, it was up.

Jon Snow was literally resurrected last season.

lawred2 · 09-08-2017 11:05AM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Jon Snow was literally resurrected last season.

seamus · 09-08-2017 11:08AM

Harambe wrote: »

I was saying this yesterday to a friend.
I reckon if George R.R. Martin was still involved we would have seen a major character die in that scene. If not Jaime, Danny or Drogon then definitely Bronn.

Dany or Drogon would have been perhaps too formulaic. Bronn using what is a medieval FLAK cannon for the first time, managing to hit the dragon in a critical spot on the second shot, would have been a stroke of luck too extraordinary to be believable.

As leggo says, with probably the most devastating battle any army has seen in the series, apparently none of those in charge are killed, even though the troops have been annihilated. And one of those in charge (Dickon) is a novice on the battlefield.

Jon Snow was literally resurrected last season.

That's kind of my point. It seems where they ran out of book material, the producers started reverting back to the "popular characters can't just die a senseless death" trope rather than sticking with the brutal realism.

eeguy · 09-08-2017 11:19AM

seamus wrote: »

As leggo says, with probably the most devastating battle any army has seen in the series, apparently none of those in charge are killed, even though the troops have been annihilated. And one of those in charge (Dickon) is a novice on the battlefield.

That's kind of my point. It seems where they ran out of book material, the producers started reverting back to the "popular characters can't just die a senseless death" trope rather than sticking with the brutal realism.

Tarly was nowhere to be seen after the initial charge. He's most likely toast. Dickon too. Bronn and Jamie are MIA until the next episode. The Lannister army is burning on a field. To say its a trope is probably cynical.

It will be interested to compare the book to this and see how far they actually deviated. Jon's resurrection is undoubtedly in the book.

griffin100 · 09-08-2017 11:20AM

sup_dude wrote: »

So it's predictable because it didn't do what you expected it to do?

So predicable in that both your predictions were wrong?

Maybe I am wrong but my reasoning........

When Qyburn produced his miracle weapon they made such a big deal of it that I reasoned that it would have to be a game changer of sorts, hence it would have to be used to kill or at least take out of action a dragon. This episode it did indeed take out a dragon and perhaps killed it? That bit wasn't clear to me.

On Bron dying, he hasn't been seen much for ages. This episode he shows up, gets lots of gold, Jamie promises him his own castle when the war is over.......so I reckoned he was for the chop. At the end of the episode I assumed he was the one who rescued Jamie and died in the process. We will see! (I haven't read any spoilers for nest episode so I could be complete arse about with this).

eeguy · 09-08-2017 11:27AM

griffin100 wrote: »

Maybe I am wrong but my reasoning........

When Qyburn produced his miracle weapon they made such a big deal of it that I reasoned that it would have to be a game changer of sorts, hence it would have to be used to kill or at least take out of action a dragon. This episode it did indeed take out a dragon and perhaps killed it? That bit wasn't clear to me.

On Bron dying, he hasn't been seen much for ages. This episode he shows up, gets lots of gold, Jamie promises him his own castle when the war is over.......so I reckoned he was for the chop. At the end of the episode I assumed he was the one who rescued Jamie and died in the process. We will see! (I haven't read any spoilers for nest episode so I could be complete arse about with this).

We're only halfway through the season. So much has happened already. People are already complaining things are happening too fast, so t be expecting major characters and dragons to die as well would totally mess with the pace.

ohnonotgmail · 09-08-2017 11:32AM

griffin100 wrote: »

Maybe I am wrong but my reasoning........

When Qyburn produced his miracle weapon they made such a big deal of it that I reasoned that it would have to be a game changer of sorts, hence it would have to be used to kill or at least take out of action a dragon. This episode it did indeed take out a dragon and perhaps killed it? That bit wasn't clear to me.

On Bron dying, he hasn't been seen much for ages. This episode he shows up, gets lots of gold, Jamie promises him his own castle when the war is over.......so I reckoned he was for the chop. At the end of the episode I assumed he was the one who rescued Jamie and died in the process. We will see! (I haven't read any spoilers for nest episode so I could be complete arse about with this).

Drogon was not killed. I'm not sure how that could be more clear. Qyburn used the scorpion on a skull at a much closer range that Bronn fired at. Bronn also missed drogons head. So drogon is hurt but definitely not fatally.

peteeeed · 09-08-2017 11:32AM

it was a really great episode except for the 'cave of convenience ' as its become known , seemed to tie everything up too well for john snow

unplayable · 09-08-2017 11:34AM

Sorry if it was mentioned already but a nice nod to blade runner with little finger telling doctor branhatten he must have "seen things most people wouldn't believe"

Great ep def top 5

Daith · 09-08-2017 11:37AM

unplayable wrote: »

Sorry if it was mentioned already but a nice nod to blade runner with little finger telling doctor branhatten he must have "seen things most people wouldn't believe"

Damn, Bran should have responded with " if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes"

Penn · 09-08-2017 11:45AM

seamus wrote: »

Watched it last night. Agree with griffin above, I found a lot of the Jon/Dany scenes quite weak and poorly written. Dunno, maybe they're trying to demonstrate sexual tension between them by making them really wooden or something.

I was a little disappointed with the very end. GoT has never really done the miraculous escape stuff. When someone's number was up, it was up. Or when they escaped, it was believable. Whereas Bronn manages to deftly dodge the Dothraki horde, and abandons his money to serve Jamie and risk his life to try kill the dragon. And at the last second dives off the weapon and avoids being cooked alive. And then Jamie is about to be cooked and someone (Bronn or Dickon I assume) appears out of nowhere to save him.

It's just not the same GoT-esque stuff that we've seen. A major character hasn't died in a long time. Important side-characters have died, such as the Tyrells, but Tommen is arguably the last big character to die. Even then I wouldn't call him a major influencing character. Ramsay Bolton, but then that was inevitable.

Maybe it's more fatigue but it seems like there haven't been any surprise or really upsetting deaths since Jon Snow was killed. Everyone else who has died kind of seemed to be going that way. Jamie or Bronn dying this episode would have been a major incident.

I hear what you're saying, but when you consider the last two episodes of Season 6, a huge number of characters were killed off. Margaery, Loras, Mace, Pycelle, Tommen, High Sparrow, Kevin Lannister, Tommen, Ramsey, Rickon, the Wildling Giant, Lancel. Many of them may not have been major characters, but coming into the endgame of the series it was clearing out all the unnecessary characters for the final season.

We're only 4 episodes into what will essentially be a final season of 13 episodes, some of which could be 90-120 minutes long. There's still plenty of time to kill off major characters, but I don't think the story would have been well served by killing off Jaime at this point. Bronn, maybe. But he's never been a major character either.

Jaime, having seen and survived (presumably) Dany's attack and seen what one of her dragons can do first hand, it could lead to much better storylines than him simply dying. From here if he survives, he could either be captured by Dany (which could cause conflict between Tyrion & Dany), or escape back to Cersei and try to stop the war and Cersei because he doesn't feel they can beat Dany & her dragons, which could lead to conflict between him and Cersei.

I think the time for shocking deaths is still to come, but we're in the endgame of the story now. At this point, all characters surplus to requirement have been killed off last season. And there have been plenty of miraculous escapes before. Drogon rescuing Dany from the Sons of the Harpy then flying off with her (no idea how Tyrion, Jorah, Dario & Missandie escaped though). The Knights of the Vale helping Jon win the Battle of the Bastards. Howland Reed saving young Ned from Ser Arthur. Tywin, Loras et al coming to the rescue at Blackwater. Pod (of all people) saving Tyrion's life. Brienne & Pod rescuing Sansa & Theon. Probably more that I can't think of.

I don't see Jaime surviving as not being GOT-esque. The shocking main character deaths in GOT have always served a higher story purpose rather than just being shock for the sake of it or to show the true brutality of war/life. I can't see what purpose Jaime's death would have had for the story.

TITANIUM. · 09-08-2017 11:48AM

Bronn got clear of the Dragon fire and into the drink with him after Jamie. He's known for not wearing heavy armour so he'll probably fish Jamie out.
I was so annoyed with him tho. After he hit Drogon he had time to reload the dame scorpion, the Dragon landed right in front of him and it would have been an easy shot for him to put it in his skull but the Dragon got off another blast. But he was so happy with himself he just kept looking at the injured Drogon circling.
Danny and the constant Bend the knee **** is really grating on me now.

ohnonotgmail · 09-08-2017 11:49AM

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Bronn got clear of the Dragon fire and into the drink with him after Jamie. He's known for not wearing heavy armour so he'll probably fish Jamie out.
I was so annoyed with him tho. After he hit Drogon he had time to reload the dame scorpion, the Dragon landed right in front of him and it would have been an easy shot for him to put it in his skull but the Dragon got off another blast. But he was so happy with himself he just kept looking at the injured Drogon circling.
Danny and the constant Bend the knee **** is really grating on me now.

didnt drogon destroy the wagon that Bronn was on before he landed?

Ave Sodalis · 09-08-2017 11:50AM

griffin100 wrote: »

Maybe I am wrong but my reasoning........

When Qyburn produced his miracle weapon they made such a big deal of it that I reasoned that it would have to be a game changer of sorts, hence it would have to be used to kill or at least take out of action a dragon. This episode it did indeed take out a dragon and perhaps killed it? That bit wasn't clear to me.

On Bron dying, he hasn't been seen much for ages. This episode he shows up, gets lots of gold, Jamie promises him his own castle when the war is over.......so I reckoned he was for the chop. At the end of the episode I assumed he was the one who rescued Jamie and died in the process. We will see! (I haven't read any spoilers for nest episode so I could be complete arse about with this).

It hurt a dragon but it didn't kill it. It didn't even hurt it all that badly, considering the dragon could remain steady in the air in order to take out the weapon that hurt it.

There's also no reason for Bronn to be dead. If Jaime wasn't burnt to death, neither was Bronn as they both went into the water together. There's more chance of him surviving the water than Jaime. Bronn getting lots of gold and wanting a castle has been going on for quite a while.

Evade · 09-08-2017 11:50AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So drogon is hurt but definitely not fatally.

Can Drogon still fly with that wound? If he can't being stuck on the ground and having only the Dothraki to defend him so close to King's landing could lead to a tough choice for Daenerys.

lawred2 · 09-08-2017 11:53AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

didnt drogon destroy the wagon that Bronn was on before he landed?

scorched it

david75 · 09-08-2017 11:55AM

Bend the knee

Is she asking him to propose? I can see these two marrying.

CMOTDibbler · 09-08-2017 11:55AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

didnt drogon destroy the wagon that Bronn was on before he landed?

Don't you come in here runing good rants with your fancy-pants facts.

TITANIUM. · 09-08-2017 11:56AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

didnt drogon destroy the wagon that Bronn was on before he landed?

Your right it was just before he landed but he was hovering right in front of it about 20ft off the ground and Bronn even had it aimed at him before he said to himself **** this for a game of soldiers and bailed out.

seamus · 09-08-2017 12:05PM

unplayable wrote: »

Sorry if it was mentioned already but a nice nod to blade runner with little finger telling doctor branhatten he must have "seen things most people wouldn't believe"

Pretty sure his muttering of "flee, you fool" was also a nod to Lord of the Rings.

Evade wrote: »

Can Drogon still fly with that wound? If he can't being stuck on the ground and having only the Dothraki to defend him so close to King's landing could lead to a tough choice for Daenerys.

It was Drogon who was injured in the fighting pit and then flew away afterwards, so pretty sure this is no issue. The battle is over anyway, so she's in no danger.

The next episode will probably start with the spear being removed and Drogon limping off home while the Dothraki circle around Dany.

Evade · 09-08-2017 12:10PM

seamus wrote: »

It was Drogon who was injured in the fighting pit and then flew away afterwards, so pretty sure this is no issue. The battle is over anyway, so she's in no danger.

The next episode will probably start with the spear being removed and Drogon limping off home while the Dothraki circle around Dany.

This injury might be worse, it forced him to land. Reinforcements from King's Landing aren't far away and as good as the Dothraki are as individual fighters an experienced, prepared, and well-drilled army would probably still beat them.

fluke · 09-08-2017 12:12PM

naughto wrote: »

https://m.imgur.com/a/TWGgF

oh haha Davos. ha. ha.

This is becoming as much an important GoT related thing for me as the Game of Thrones podcast I listen to afterwards.

Penn · 09-08-2017 12:14PM

Evade wrote: »

This injury might be worse it stopped him from flying. Reinforcements from King's Landing aren't far away and as good as the Dothraki are as individual fighters an experienced, prepared, and well-drilled army would probably still beat them.

It stopped him flying momentarily, but the spear was still stuck in his shoulder. I'd say once it's removed (which Dany was trying to do) it wouldn't take long for him to be able to fly again. Certainly not as long as it would take reinforcements from King's Landing to get there, and that's provided they actually try given the destruction they'll be able to see the dragon caused. That's without the Dothraki there to help too.

peteeeed · 09-08-2017 12:23PM

https://twitter.com/skyatlantic/status/895243515734638592

Season 7 Episode 4 "The Spoils of War" - "Non book readers"

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