Money follows money

CIP4 · 22-07-2017 07:55PM #1

Money follows money is an expression I have heard used but recently I have seen/heard of a lot of cases to which this expression applies.

Whether it's getting the best deals or easily picking up good jobs with great conditions or just easily making more money scenarios that never happen for the average Joe. Things just seems to always work out well without the people necessarily putting much effort into it.

So what's AH's view on this is it just a case that most people who have a decent amount of money are better at managing it than the low/middle class, is it just luck or is it a coincidence and wealthy people are at no more advantage in generating more wealth than anyone else.

GerryDerpy · 22-07-2017 07:56PM

The rich man is generally smarter. He is making it look easy.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 22-07-2017 07:59PM

It often does not apply to inherited wealth but certainly often does to those who made their own. Momentum is built up. The ethos is in place. The desire to succeed is confirmed

Noveight · 22-07-2017 08:16PM

I've often heard it used as a dig more than anything else, as if to belittle someone for doing well.

Filmer Paradise · 22-07-2017 08:25PM

If your in a position to buy major stuff without having to use credit you have a head start on most other people.

Things tend to be cheaper when you have a good chunk to start with.

Money does really follow money when your careful with it.

KyussBeeshop · 22-07-2017 08:34PM

It simply means, that by virtue of having a lot of money, it is far easier to then gain a lot more money - that it's an advantage gained not through meritocratic means, but just by having a lot of money.

A person with a shitload of money is - quite obviously - far more likely to succeed in ending up with a shitload more money, than someone starting out with a lot less money.

It's one of those obvious truths that are often denied, by people who want to pretend we're living in a meritocracy.

Charles Babbage · 22-07-2017 09:18PM

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

If your in a position to buy major stuff without having to use credit you have a head start on most other people.

Things tend to be cheaper when you have a good chunk to start with.

Money does really follow money when your careful with it.

You could have two people in the same job. One is always having credit card debt, car loans and whining about a lack of money. The other saved up for his car and never seems short of money, although they have same salary.

Wanderer2010 · 22-07-2017 09:28PM

Its also used in relationships, I have often heard the term "Oh she wont look twice at you, money follows money" and I have seen when men/women would only consider a life partner who comes from a wealthy background. Some people call it plain snobbery. And in light of the recession when so much of this country were struggling, I abhor people who still aim for the money.

22-07-2017 09:40PM

Barristers do their apprenticeship by 'deviling' for another barrister for a year or two for free. This system ensures that by and large, only those from rich families who will support them through this period can afford to become barristers, one of the highest earning professions around.

The same applies on a slightly smaller scale to the many jobs that require unpaid internships to create opportunities for young graduates.

Jurgen Klopp · 22-07-2017 09:42PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Barristers do their apprenticeship by 'deviling' for another barrister for a year or two for free. This system ensures that by and large, only those from rich families who will support them through this period can afford to become barristers, one of the highest earning professions around.

The same applies on a slightly smaller scale to the many jobs that require unpaid internships to create opportunities for young graduates.

Not just that isn't it something like €12,000 to do all your professional exams?

myshirt · 22-07-2017 09:51PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Barristers do their apprenticeship by 'deviling' for another barrister for a year or two for free. This system ensures that by and large, only those from rich families who will support them through this period can afford to become barristers, one of the highest earning professions around.

The same applies on a slightly smaller scale to the many jobs that require unpaid internships to create opportunities for young graduates.

You are correct in that there are serious access issues to the bar if you are not from a long line of wealthy people. It is a crying shame. We need a diversity of backgrounds. Law is essentially the imposition of one classes set of rules on another, and we need to draw from all Society to get that.

They are addressing it though, there are access programmes. This dining at commons, not being able to form chambers, not advertise, the need for a network etc etc, all a disaster, though there are barristers from less privileged backgrounds including a well known traveller who is an excellent barrister. The Law Society also do similar for solicitors. Some very decent people with strong a social conscience. I am a member of Chartered Accountants Ireland and the Law Society and Chartered are by far the worst for privilege and prestige. By a mile.

Not great money at the bar aswell, trust me. Very select few making the big money, and all politically connected.

Filmer Paradise · 22-07-2017 10:03PM

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Its also used in relationships, I have often heard the term "Oh she wont look twice at you, money follows money" and I have seen when men/women would only consider a life partner who comes from a wealthy background. Some people call it plain snobbery. And in light of the recession when so much of this country were struggling, I abhor people who still aim for the money.

Unfortunately in this country there are only 2 ways to get wealthy.

1. Be born into money.

2. Marry into money.

Of course there are the odd exceptions but by and large this is the case.

Widdershins · 22-07-2017 10:10PM

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

If your in a position to buy major stuff without having to use credit you have a head start on most other people.

Things tend to be cheaper when you have a good chunk to start with.

Money does really follow money when your careful with it.

Very true. Even from a small business owners perspective, if you have plenty of starting capital you can buy stock or supplies in bulk, saving yourself money, making it easier to get off the ground and start turning a profit.

Basically money helps you clear hurdles, lack of money makes the going slow and difficult. Having money at the start is a head start, naturally, if managed well, it will open up opportunities to make more money.

cruizer101 · 22-07-2017 10:12PM

“The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”

― Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms: The Play

Filmer Paradise · 22-07-2017 10:14PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

If your in a position to buy major stuff without having to use credit you have a head start on most other people.

Things tend to be cheaper when you have a good chunk to start with.

Money does really follow money when your careful with it.

Very true. Even from a small business owners perspective, if you have plenty of starting capital you can buy stock or supplies in bulk, saving yourself money, making it easier to get off the ground and start turning a profit.

Basically money helps you clear hurdles, lack of money makes the going slow and difficult. Having money at the start is a head start, naturally, if managed well, it will open up opportunities to make more money.

Not to mention discounts for paying cash up front.

Widdershins · 22-07-2017 10:27PM

cruizer101 wrote: »

“The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”

― Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms: The Play

Reminds me of socks. There's a brand of socks with a lifetime guarantee, popular with American hikers whose blogs I read. They cost up to $40 a pair, but they reputedly last FAR longer than an average pair of hiking socks and the manufacturers will replace them if/when you wear them out, no questions asked. If you can afford that initial outlay.

vegetables · 22-07-2017 10:27PM

Well a large sum gives you a leverage of sorts to gain what would be considered a nice amount, and then allows you to compound that gain and getting bigger and bigger numbers.

a bit like swinging something heavy on a rope.
the average joe is dragging his weight on the ground and its grinding.
the rich have momentum built up and the thing is practically swinging itself.

basically money gives access to money making shenanigans.

Gbear · 22-07-2017 10:38PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Barristers do their apprenticeship by 'deviling' for another barrister for a year or two for free. This system ensures that by and large, only those from rich families who will support them through this period can afford to become barristers, one of the highest earning professions around.

The same applies on a slightly smaller scale to the many jobs that require unpaid internships to create opportunities for young graduates.

A friend of mine is still in the middle of that at the moment.

He comes from a working/middle class background. He's fron a fairly big family with not a whole lot of money.
His parents help where they can but he's also done work on the side, saved up and so on. He gets some expenses, lunch and the like, but there's all sorts of ****e he has to pay for - wanky robes and the like that further serve to maintain the divide and keep out the riff-raff. It sounds tough.

I've tremendous respect for him. You really have to want it if you're in his situation.

There's something to be said for paying your own way through an apprenticeship but the extent that it's seen in the law professions seems deeply anachronistic.

Permabear · 22-07-2017 10:42PM

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Sue Pa Key Pa · 22-07-2017 10:42PM

Borrowing money. & being in debt is the biggest downfall for most people. Having money when it is needed is the key. So, money makes money IMO

KyussBeeshop · 22-07-2017 10:55PM

Permabear wrote: »

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A person without access to lots of money, has a much more limited opportunity for developing that particular set of knowledge/skills (and CV...), than someone without - it's possible and it happens without a lot of money originally (as I believe is the case for you), yet greater money still affords a much greater advantage.

Having lots of money affords much greater opportunity - and ability to fully take advantage of opportunities - than not having much money, essentially.

LionelNashe · 22-07-2017 11:11PM

One aspect of it is that if you spend money on certain types of assets, then they will retain their value while providing you with an income. If you accumulate enough of these assets, then voila, you're now a capitalist, not a worker, and you can sit back and put your feet up. On the other hand if you spend money on assets that don't hold their value or return an income, then you're less likely to become wealthy. I really like this book, 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad' for clarifying some of the concepts that seem obvious now in retrospect.

I think another aspect of it is that if you grow up in a family where there is wealth, and a professional career, you'll have the expectation of acquiring the same things yourself, and you'll believe that it's possible. Plus, you'll have the contacts, and maybe even the advantage of a particular postcode and the accent that goes with it, to make it happen.

Solomon Pleasant · 22-07-2017 11:35PM

I don't think it's accidental that certain people become wealthy and certain people don't. In Ireland, I think there are several ways that people form and accumulate wealth with the main ones being:

1) Education - It takes a combination of a strong work ethic and a natural level of intelligence. I've met people who have varying combinations of both. In order to make money through education, typical fields like finance and possibly economics would be advisable. Investment banks would be the obvious one here, although they are incredibly competitive and usually require a rather particular aptitude for mathematics.

2) Construction - It's an incredibly lucrative sector. Contractors can and do earn huge amounts of money from professional jobs. I always quietly smile when I hear an arts student from Trinity making a deprecating comment towards someone wearing a high-vis jacket and work boots as they may possibly earn more in one day than the college graduate will make in 1 week. That being said, there is risk in the sector and it is cut throat.

3) Entrepreneurship - Possibly the most difficult and certainly only certain people are destined to be successful entrepreneurs. However, entrepreneurs who provide a product and market it powerfully really can earn millions. It, like many other sectors, is risky and naturally heavy investment may be required.

Naturally there are other ways in which people will have gained wealth but I think the majority of people in Ireland will have accumulated wealth through one of those 3 avenues. Neither is easy and if I were to hazard a guess at the key ingredients to success in those industries were it would be a) a very stable and consistent work ethic, b) relevant knowledge and c) people skills and contacts.

Does money follow money? Most definitely. People who are wealthy know that who you surround yourself with shapes who you become. If you want to be successful, surround yourself with successful people. Of course, if you're wealthy, it's much more likely that the people who you want to talk to, will also want to speak with you.

vegetables · 23-07-2017 12:02AM

Permabear wrote: »

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I didn't say it guarantees anything.
Just that it grants access.

Like if there was a sure thing, a solid opportunity to double your investment, but the minimum amount was 100,000.

The rich would not worry to go ahead with that and come out with the 100,000 profit. Worst case; no boathouse on the summer home this year.

The average joe however would not have the balls. Worst case being an extra 10 hours overtime every single week from here to retirement.

Another case might be the likes of the multi-millionaire property developer who buys the slums up, gentrifies, remarkets, sells and comes out a billionaire.

Not exactly an option that Mr 35k can access.

Permabear · 23-07-2017 12:59AM

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Charles Babbage · 23-07-2017 01:05AM

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

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1+3 worked for me. Go to college in something that gives you some money, then invest in the entrepreneur (now on Irish rich list) that you met there.

Permabear wrote: »

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The likes of Sean Quinn got too much money and lost their touch. He saw the need to diversify away from Irish construction based on the property boom, but then bought a bank entirely dependent on that boom.

Icemancometh · 23-07-2017 01:27AM

I'm lucky enough to have a decent income, and I can keep enough money In my current account that my bank charges me no fees. If you're living paycheque to paycheque and have a low balance (nevermind overdraft), they charge you fees. So I earn more and pay less.

KyussBeeshop · 23-07-2017 01:30AM

I see. Lets not talk about the much greater opportunities someone with large amounts of money has, over someone who does not have large amounts of money - to instead focus on individual/isolated cases of rich people being stupid and failing, and rags-to-riches stories of less well off people succeeding - a focus that serves to exaggerate the opportunities of those without all that much money, and minimize the advantages of those with a lot of money.

There were plenty of investment opportunities available to Mr 35k 10-15 years ago - except the average person is very stupid about investments, and back then a good chunk of the people advising the public, were piling them into property investments...a wise person will be ultra-skeptical of investment advice, and will remain extremely humble regarding their own knowledge and intelligence, when it comes to investments and detecting when they are being deceived/defrauded - as the past has shown, much of the public is not very smart about this kind of thing at all.

The required knowledge here, doesn't come cheap - and many people will never have enough aptitude in this area, to detect when they are being piled into unwise investments.

Solomon Pleasant · 23-07-2017 10:15AM

How much money do you deem to be sufficient enough to prosper in the financial markets?

23-07-2017 10:15AM

Gbear wrote: »

A friend of mine is still in the middle of that at the moment.

He comes from a working/middle class background. He's fron a fairly big family with not a whole lot of money.
His parents help where they can but he's also done work on the side, saved up and so on. He gets some expenses, lunch and the like, but there's all sorts of ****e he has to pay for - wanky robes and the like that further serve to maintain the divide and keep out the riff-raff. It sounds tough.

I've tremendous respect for him. You really have to want it if you're in his situation.

There's something to be said for paying your own way through an apprenticeship but the extent that it's seen in the law professions seems deeply anachronistic.

Where does he live?

Cyrus · 23-07-2017 10:20AM

CIP4 wrote: »

Money follows money is an expression I have heard used but recently I have seen/heard of a lot of cases to which this expression applies.

Whether it's getting the best deals or easily picking up good jobs with great conditions or just easily making more money scenarios that never happen for the average Joe. Things just seems to always work out well without the people necessarily putting much effort into it.

So what's AH's view on this is it just a case that most people who have a decent amount of money are better at managing it than the low/middle class, is it just luck or is it a coincidence and wealthy people are at no more advantage in generating more wealth than anyone else.

It's an excuse that the 'average Joe's makes for not getting on to be honest

We don't really have lots of old wealth in Ireland and a lot of first generation people who made it didn't impede them (most of the developers for example)

Money follows money

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