Money follows money

CIP4

Money follows money is an expression I have heard used but recently I have seen/heard of a lot of cases to which this expression applies.

Whether it's getting the best deals or easily picking up good jobs with great conditions or just easily making more money scenarios that never happen for the average Joe. Things just seems to always work out well without the people necessarily putting much effort into it.

So what's AH's view on this is it just a case that most people who have a decent amount of money are better at managing it than the low/middle class, is it just luck or is it a coincidence and wealthy people are at no more advantage in generating more wealth than anyone else.

GerryDerpy

The rich man is generally smarter. He is making it look easy.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

It often does not apply to inherited wealth but certainly often does to those who made their own. Momentum is built up. The ethos is in place. The desire to succeed is confirmed

Noveight

I've often heard it used as a dig more than anything else, as if to belittle someone for doing well.

Filmer Paradise

If your in a position to buy major stuff without having to use credit you have a head start on most other people.

Things tend to be cheaper when you have a good chunk to start with.

Money does really follow money when your careful with it.

KyussBeeshop

It simply means, that by virtue of having a lot of money, it is far easier to then gain a lot more money - that it's an advantage gained not through meritocratic means, but just by having a lot of money.

A person with a shitload of money is - quite obviously - far more likely to succeed in ending up with a shitload more money, than someone starting out with a lot less money.

It's one of those obvious truths that are often denied, by people who want to pretend we're living in a meritocracy.

Charles Babbage

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

If your in a position to buy major stuff without having to use credit you have a head start on most other people.

Things tend to be cheaper when you have a good chunk to start with.

Money does really follow money when your careful with it.

You could have two people in the same job. One is always having credit card debt, car loans and whining about a lack of money. The other saved up for his car and never seems short of money, although they have same salary.

Wanderer2010

Its also used in relationships, I have often heard the term "Oh she wont look twice at you, money follows money" and I have seen when men/women would only consider a life partner who comes from a wealthy background. Some people call it plain snobbery. And in light of the recession when so much of this country were struggling, I abhor people who still aim for the money.

AndrewJRenko

Barristers do their apprenticeship by 'deviling' for another barrister for a year or two for free. This system ensures that by and large, only those from rich families who will support them through this period can afford to become barristers, one of the highest earning professions around.

The same applies on a slightly smaller scale to the many jobs that require unpaid internships to create opportunities for young graduates.

Jurgen Klopp

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Barristers do their apprenticeship by 'deviling' for another barrister for a year or two for free. This system ensures that by and large, only those from rich families who will support them through this period can afford to become barristers, one of the highest earning professions around.

The same applies on a slightly smaller scale to the many jobs that require unpaid internships to create opportunities for young graduates.

Not just that isn't it something like €12,000 to do all your professional exams?

myshirt

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Barristers do their apprenticeship by 'deviling' for another barrister for a year or two for free. This system ensures that by and large, only those from rich families who will support them through this period can afford to become barristers, one of the highest earning professions around.

The same applies on a slightly smaller scale to the many jobs that require unpaid internships to create opportunities for young graduates.

You are correct in that there are serious access issues to the bar if you are not from a long line of wealthy people. It is a crying shame. We need a diversity of backgrounds. Law is essentially the imposition of one classes set of rules on another, and we need to draw from all Society to get that.

They are addressing it though, there are access programmes. This dining at commons, not being able to form chambers, not advertise, the need for a network etc etc, all a disaster, though there are barristers from less privileged backgrounds including a well known traveller who is an excellent barrister. The Law Society also do similar for solicitors. Some very decent people with strong a social conscience. I am a member of Chartered Accountants Ireland and the Law Society and Chartered are by far the worst for privilege and prestige. By a mile.

Not great money at the bar aswell, trust me. Very select few making the big money, and all politically connected.

Filmer Paradise

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Its also used in relationships, I have often heard the term "Oh she wont look twice at you, money follows money" and I have seen when men/women would only consider a life partner who comes from a wealthy background. Some people call it plain snobbery. And in light of the recession when so much of this country were struggling, I abhor people who still aim for the money.

Unfortunately in this country there are only 2 ways to get wealthy.

1. Be born into money.

2. Marry into money.

Of course there are the odd exceptions but by and large this is the case.

Widdershins

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

If your in a position to buy major stuff without having to use credit you have a head start on most other people.

Things tend to be cheaper when you have a good chunk to start with.

Money does really follow money when your careful with it.

Very true. Even from a small business owners perspective, if you have plenty of starting capital you can buy stock or supplies in bulk, saving yourself money, making it easier to get off the ground and start turning a profit.

Basically money helps you clear hurdles, lack of money makes the going slow and difficult. Having money at the start is a head start, naturally, if managed well, it will open up opportunities to make more money.

cruizer101

“The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”


― Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms: The Play

Filmer Paradise

Widdershins wrote: »

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

If your in a position to buy major stuff without having to use credit you have a head start on most other people.

Things tend to be cheaper when you have a good chunk to start with.

Money does really follow money when your careful with it.

Very true. Even from a small business owners perspective, if you have plenty of starting capital you can buy stock or supplies in bulk, saving yourself money, making it easier to get off the ground and start turning a profit.

Basically money helps you clear hurdles, lack of money makes the going slow and difficult. Having money at the start is a head start, naturally, if managed well, it will open up opportunities to make more money.

Not to mention discounts for paying cash up front.

Widdershins

cruizer101 wrote: »

“The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”


― Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms: The Play

Reminds me of socks. There's a brand of socks with a lifetime guarantee, popular with American hikers whose blogs I read. They cost up to $40 a pair, but they reputedly last FAR longer than an average pair of hiking socks and the manufacturers will replace them if/when you wear them out, no questions asked. If you can afford that initial outlay.

vegetables

Well a large sum gives you a leverage of sorts to gain what would be considered a nice amount, and then allows you to compound that gain and getting bigger and bigger numbers.

a bit like swinging something heavy on a rope.
the average joe is dragging his weight on the ground and its grinding.
the rich have momentum built up and the thing is practically swinging itself.

basically money gives access to money making shenanigans.

Gbear

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Barristers do their apprenticeship by 'deviling' for another barrister for a year or two for free. This system ensures that by and large, only those from rich families who will support them through this period can afford to become barristers, one of the highest earning professions around.

The same applies on a slightly smaller scale to the many jobs that require unpaid internships to create opportunities for young graduates.

A friend of mine is still in the middle of that at the moment.

He comes from a working/middle class background. He's fron a fairly big family with not a whole lot of money.
His parents help where they can but he's also done work on the side, saved up and so on. He gets some expenses, lunch and the like, but there's all sorts of ****e he has to pay for - wanky robes and the like that further serve to maintain the divide and keep out the riff-raff. It sounds tough.

I've tremendous respect for him. You really have to want it if you're in his situation.

There's something to be said for paying your own way through an apprenticeship but the extent that it's seen in the law professions seems deeply anachronistic.

Permabear

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Sue Pa Key Pa

Borrowing money. & being in debt is the biggest downfall for most people. Having money when it is needed is the key. So, money makes money IMO

KyussBeeshop

Permabear wrote: »

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A person without access to lots of money, has a much more limited opportunity for developing that particular set of knowledge/skills (and CV...), than someone without - it's possible and it happens without a lot of money originally (as I believe is the case for you), yet greater money still affords a much greater advantage.

Having lots of money affords much greater opportunity - and ability to fully take advantage of opportunities - than not having much money, essentially.

LionelNashe

One aspect of it is that if you spend money on certain types of assets, then they will retain their value while providing you with an income. If you accumulate enough of these assets, then voila, you're now a capitalist, not a worker, and you can sit back and put your feet up. On the other hand if you spend money on assets that don't hold their value or return an income, then you're less likely to become wealthy. I really like this book, 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad' for clarifying some of the concepts that seem obvious now in retrospect.

I think another aspect of it is that if you grow up in a family where there is wealth, and a professional career, you'll have the expectation of acquiring the same things yourself, and you'll believe that it's possible. Plus, you'll have the contacts, and maybe even the advantage of a particular postcode and the accent that goes with it, to make it happen.

Solomon Pleasant

I don't think it's accidental that certain people become wealthy and certain people don't. In Ireland, I think there are several ways that people form and accumulate wealth with the main ones being:

1) Education - It takes a combination of a strong work ethic and a natural level of intelligence. I've met people who have varying combinations of both. In order to make money through education, typical fields like finance and possibly economics would be advisable. Investment banks would be the obvious one here, although they are incredibly competitive and usually require a rather particular aptitude for mathematics.

2) Construction - It's an incredibly lucrative sector. Contractors can and do earn huge amounts of money from professional jobs. I always quietly smile when I hear an arts student from Trinity making a deprecating comment towards someone wearing a high-vis jacket and work boots as they may possibly earn more in one day than the college graduate will make in 1 week. That being said, there is risk in the sector and it is cut throat.

3) Entrepreneurship - Possibly the most difficult and certainly only certain people are destined to be successful entrepreneurs. However, entrepreneurs who provide a product and market it powerfully really can earn millions. It, like many other sectors, is risky and naturally heavy investment may be required.

Naturally there are other ways in which people will have gained wealth but I think the majority of people in Ireland will have accumulated wealth through one of those 3 avenues. Neither is easy and if I were to hazard a guess at the key ingredients to success in those industries were it would be a) a very stable and consistent work ethic, b) relevant knowledge and c) people skills and contacts.

Does money follow money? Most definitely. People who are wealthy know that who you surround yourself with shapes who you become. If you want to be successful, surround yourself with successful people. Of course, if you're wealthy, it's much more likely that the people who you want to talk to, will also want to speak with you.

vegetables

Permabear wrote: »

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I didn't say it guarantees anything.
Just that it grants access.

Like if there was a sure thing, a solid opportunity to double your investment, but the minimum amount was 100,000.

The rich would not worry to go ahead with that and come out with the 100,000 profit. Worst case; no boathouse on the summer home this year.

The average joe however would not have the balls. Worst case being an extra 10 hours overtime every single week from here to retirement.

Another case might be the likes of the multi-millionaire property developer who buys the slums up, gentrifies, remarkets, sells and comes out a billionaire.

Not exactly an option that Mr 35k can access.

Permabear

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Charles Babbage

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

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1+3 worked for me. Go to college in something that gives you some money, then invest in the entrepreneur (now on Irish rich list) that you met there.

Permabear wrote: »

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The likes of Sean Quinn got too much money and lost their touch. He saw the need to diversify away from Irish construction based on the property boom, but then bought a bank entirely dependent on that boom.

Icemancometh

I'm lucky enough to have a decent income, and I can keep enough money In my current account that my bank charges me no fees. If you're living paycheque to paycheque and have a low balance (nevermind overdraft), they charge you fees. So I earn more and pay less.

KyussBeeshop

I see. Lets not talk about the much greater opportunities someone with large amounts of money has, over someone who does not have large amounts of money - to instead focus on individual/isolated cases of rich people being stupid and failing, and rags-to-riches stories of less well off people succeeding - a focus that serves to exaggerate the opportunities of those without all that much money, and minimize the advantages of those with a lot of money.

There were plenty of investment opportunities available to Mr 35k 10-15 years ago - except the average person is very stupid about investments, and back then a good chunk of the people advising the public, were piling them into property investments...a wise person will be ultra-skeptical of investment advice, and will remain extremely humble regarding their own knowledge and intelligence, when it comes to investments and detecting when they are being deceived/defrauded - as the past has shown, much of the public is not very smart about this kind of thing at all.

The required knowledge here, doesn't come cheap - and many people will never have enough aptitude in this area, to detect when they are being piled into unwise investments.

Solomon Pleasant

How much money do you deem to be sufficient enough to prosper in the financial markets?

AndrewJRenko

Gbear wrote: »

A friend of mine is still in the middle of that at the moment.

He comes from a working/middle class background. He's fron a fairly big family with not a whole lot of money.
His parents help where they can but he's also done work on the side, saved up and so on. He gets some expenses, lunch and the like, but there's all sorts of ****e he has to pay for - wanky robes and the like that further serve to maintain the divide and keep out the riff-raff. It sounds tough.

I've tremendous respect for him. You really have to want it if you're in his situation.

There's something to be said for paying your own way through an apprenticeship but the extent that it's seen in the law professions seems deeply anachronistic.

Where does he live?

Cyrus

CIP4 wrote: »

Money follows money is an expression I have heard used but recently I have seen/heard of a lot of cases to which this expression applies.

Whether it's getting the best deals or easily picking up good jobs with great conditions or just easily making more money scenarios that never happen for the average Joe. Things just seems to always work out well without the people necessarily putting much effort into it.

So what's AH's view on this is it just a case that most people who have a decent amount of money are better at managing it than the low/middle class, is it just luck or is it a coincidence and wealthy people are at no more advantage in generating more wealth than anyone else.

It's an excuse that the 'average Joe's makes for not getting on to be honest

We don't really have lots of old wealth in Ireland and a lot of first generation people who made it didn't impede them (most of the developers for example)

Gbear

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Where does he live?

Cork, thankfully. Don't know how anyone could manage it in Dublin these days.

McCrack

Forget stock markets

Cryptocurrencies offer massive gains if one invests and holds in the right coins.

KyussBeeshop

And as I said earlier, the average person is very stupid about investments...

AndrewJRenko

Gbear wrote: »

Cork, thankfully. Don't know how anyone could manage it in Dublin these days.

Sorry, I wasn't clear - I meant does he live with family or independently?

Gbear

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry, I wasn't clear - I meant does he live with family or independently?

With family.

It's not the glamourous sort of life you think you'd have several years after finishing your law degree and having become a trained barrister.

longshanks

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Any chance you could expand on this?

AndrewJRenko

Gbear wrote: »

With family.

That's what I thought, tbh - that's a huge support that many young people don't have access to, and again creates inequality.

greencap

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

And a lot more average earners would become rich if they had access to the same credit as the already rich.

Brian cowen or westlifes stories, fascinating as they are, remain as individual events. There also once was an old lady who lived in a shoe, doesn't prove anything.

McCrack

McCrack wrote: »

Forget stock markets

Cryptocurrencies offer massive gains if one invests and holds in the right coins.

huge volatility. a bubble.

e.g. Etherum down 50% in the last 2 months.

https://www.coingecko.com/en/price_charts/ethereum/usd

pure luck for anyone who got in the huge upswing.

Avatar MIA

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

2) Construction - I always quietly smile when I hear an arts student from Trinity making a deprecating comment towards someone wearing a high-vis jacket and work boots as they may possibly earn more in one day than the college graduate will make in 1 week. That being said, there is risk in the sector and it is cut throat.

And I always quietly smile at those that those that always quietly smile like the above. But, to be fair, a chip on the shoulder attitude can be a strong motivator.

I have seen it recently where a member of the "merchant prince class" got a better treatment than Joe Soap would. A strange phenomenon as I could not see any benefit to the person offering the preferential treatment, other than possible repeat business, which would as likely happen if it were Joe Soap.

Avatar MIA

SodaBottle wrote: »

Most people don't actually understand what wealth is. The average person in Ireland today is wealthier than Kings and Queens of 400 years ago.

Hmm, I think you're mixing up wealth and standard of living.

Does the average person living today have a better standard of living than Kings and queens of 400 years ago, arguably so. Are they wealthier, no.

cruizer101

cruizer101 wrote: »

“The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.
[...]

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”


― Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms: The Play

Poorer people even pay more for essential items. If you take bread or milk for example, and two liters of milk is sold at say €2, but a special offer puts the price at €3 for four liters, the poorer person who can't spare an extra cent over the allotted €2 is paying 50% more for milk. Grocery savings are for those who can afford them.

Pratchett's clothing example is an excellent one.

Avatar MIA

Candie wrote: »

Grocery savings are for those who can afford them.

Not sure I agree with this one, studies have shown that people buy and consume more if on offer, like you mention, but not necessarily to the advantage of their health.

Milk fine, tubs of ice cream, not so good.

Drumpot

People having lots of money does not correlate with intelligence or shrewdness. There is more then one way to make money that isn't about your IQ.

Asides from inheritance (yeh you Trump whose greatest success is somehow convincing people he is successful), I think one of the most advantageous traits of a person desiring money is sociopathic/psychopathic tendencies. Being self absorbed and ego driven are obvious markers IMO.

Avatar MIA

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Not sure I agree with this one, studies have shown that people buy and consume more if on offer, like you mention, but not necessarily to the advantage of their health.

Milk fine, tubs of ice cream, not so good.

I'm talking about people who's budget for essentials is accounted for down to the last few cents though, not people like me who suddenly need two buckets of M&M's because it's a 2 for 1 deal!

Avatar MIA

Drumpot wrote: »

People having lots of money does not correlate with intelligence or shrewdness. There is more then one way to make money that isn't about your IQ.

Yes and no. It may not be about IQ alone, per say, but other measures like emotional intelligence. We all know people with high IQs that may have trouble tying their own shoe laces.

But, to say there is no correlation between intelligence and lots of money is ridiculous. With the one exception, and their may be an inverse relationship, and that's lottery winners.

steddyeddy

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Yes and no. It may not be about IQ alone, per say, but other measures like emotional intelligence. We all know people with high IQs that may have trouble tying their own shoe laces.

But, to say there is no correlation between intelligence and lots of money is ridiculous. With the one exception, and their may be an inverse relationship, and that's lottery winners.

If there's a correlation I'd love to see one.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Avatar MIA

steddyeddy wrote: »

If there's a correlation I'd love to see one.

I know intelligence and education are not the same thing, but I do think in western countries that if you have intelligence you've a very good chance of exploiting it and getting a third level education, whether in your teenage years or as a mature student and with this in mind...

https://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21605909-returns-investing-university-education-vary-enormously-wealth

Avatar MIA

Avatar MIA wrote: »

But, to say there is no correlation between intelligence and lots of money is ridiculous. With the one exception, and their may be an inverse relationship, and that's lottery winners.

I would imagine it's more to do with a lack of experience and education in financial matters rather than intelligence, when it comes to lotto winners getting through their funds quicksmart.