Stormont power sharing talks

blanch152 · 20-07-2017 12:01AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Apart from the fact it's not a language. Have you any papers detailing whether it's a language? I have a few.

As opposed to the artificially reborn Irish language?

blanch152 · 20-07-2017 12:02AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's a blatant attempt to prevent the 'greening' of the north and a general neuroticism about anything that makes the northeast of Ireland more like the rest of the island and less like Finchley.

Also, Arlene's 'if you feed a crocodile' statement provides us with a little insight to the Unionist mindset. They still believe they own/control 'the food' and will share it out however they damn please.

The North is part of the UK and the majority of people up there want it to remain so. What is wrong with it being like Finchley?

blanch152 · 20-07-2017 12:08AM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I don't think either party is genuinely interested in preserving endangered languages or dialects. Instead it's more about finding an issue to antagonise each other. Do you honestly think that if the positions were reversed (i.e. if the DUP were aligned with a language and SF with a dialect) they wouldn't be having the exact same row, the only difference being that the arguments would be made by opposite sides, with SF arguing for parity between the two and the DUP saying it isn't a real language etc.?

You have hit the nail on the head here. Tiny numbers speak the artificially created Ulster Scots and slightly less tiny numbers speak the artificially rejuvenated Ulster Irish.

And it is the main reason preventing a government being formed. Only in Northern Ireland.

FrancieBrady · 20-07-2017 12:13AM

blanch152 wrote: »

The North is part of the UK and the majority of people up there want it to remain so. What is wrong with it being like Finchley?

You are as usual in your attempt to somehow blame those who identify as Irish forgetting the existence of the GFA which enshrines the right to identify as Irish and all that comes with that.

The fact is that the majority who identify as Irish request this act. If they didn't they wouldn't be e!ecting the party looking for it most stridenrly in bigger and bigger numbers.

Junkyard Tom · 20-07-2017 12:17AM

blanch152 wrote: »

The North is part of the UK

The northeast is currently under UK jurisdiction subject to change as laid out in the GFA, it's part of Ireland, always has been, and always will be.

and the majority of people up there want it to remain so.

We don't know that for sure. How can you tell if the majority want to keep Westminster bankrolling the place if there's no discussion about what a UI might look like?

What is wrong with it being like Finchley?

It was never like Finchley. People in Finchley would not feel at home in the northeast of Ireland, especially during the marching season when it's supposed to be at its most 'British', Bowler hats haven't been fashionable headwear in Finchley for decades.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2017 12:31AM

blanch152 wrote: »

The North is part of the UK and the majority of people up there want it to remain so. What is wrong with it being like Finchley?

I suppose the fact that it isn't. Partition created an unusual situation where loyalists like Carson were in the majority. This lead to a polarisation of the nationalist community and 3 decades of troubles. The Irish in the North were ignored and discriminated against for most of the North's existence. Claiming that it's in the UK therefore it must be like Finchely is ignoring the North's history and the fact that it's in Ireland, populated by a lot of Irish people.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2017 12:33AM

blanch152 wrote: »

As opposed to the artificially reborn Irish language?

Yes it's still a dialect. Irish was also artificially repressed. Time to rectify that.

FrancieBrady · 20-07-2017 12:39AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I suppose the fact that it isn't. Partition created an unusual situation where loyalists like Carson were in the majority. This lead to a polarisation of the nationalist community and 3 decades of troubles. The Irish in the North were ignored and discriminated against for most of the North's existence. Claiming that it's in the UK therefore it must be like Finchely is ignoring the North's history and the fact that it's in Ireland, populated by a lot of Irish people.

Irish people would in fact have been much less discriminated against in Finchley than they were in the artificially created sectarian state created out of their homeland to cater for unionists.

steddyeddy · 20-07-2017 12:43AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Irish people would in fact have been much less discriminated against in Finchley than they were in the artificially created sectarian state created out of their homeland to cater for unionists.

The history of the North is the history of pandering to extremists like Carson. It's given unionists a sense of entitlment that manifests as a denial of any Irish culture.

Junkyard Tom · 20-07-2017 12:55AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I suppose the fact that it isn't.

An excerpt of a summary of the confidential minutes of a British cabinet meeting in 1981 below:

nationalarchives.gov.uk

The British cabinet didn't even consider unionists British. It was a matter for 'the Irish on thier own' and 'British lives' were being sacrificed.

FrancieBrady · 20-07-2017 01:04AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

An excerpt of a summary of the confidential minutes of a British cabinet meeting in 1981 below:

nationalarchives.gov.uk

The British cabinet didn't even consider unionists British. It was a matter for 'the Irish on thier own' and 'British lives' were being sacrificed.

The 'insecurity' that dare not speak it's name. It is behind everything, from gerrymandering to the flag to the Irish language act, that unionists have ever done.
And its the reason ultimately why there is no executive.

tomwaterford · 20-07-2017 09:14AM

blanch152 wrote: »

As opposed to the artificially reborn Irish language?

What's so wrong with having an Irish language act in Ireland???

Hardly ground shaking stuff tbh

blanch152 · 20-07-2017 10:03AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are as usual in your attempt to somehow blame those who identify as Irish forgetting the existence of the GFA which enshrines the right to identify as Irish and all that comes with that.

The fact is that the majority who identify as Irish request this act. If they didn't they wouldn't be e!ecting the party looking for it most stridenrly in bigger and bigger numbers.

The GFA also has the right to identify as British, so again, what is the problem with parts of the North looking like Finchley?

blanch152 · 20-07-2017 10:05AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

An excerpt of a summary of the confidential minutes of a British cabinet meeting in 1981 below:

nationalarchives.gov.uk

The British cabinet didn't even consider unionists British. It was a matter for 'the Irish on thier own' and 'British lives' were being sacrificed.

A summary of public opinion constitutes evidence that the British cabinet didn't even consider unionists British? Are you seriously putting that out of context extract forward as evidence?

We are back to the fantasy world of one retired British general in one highly edited television interview being taken as conclusive evidence that the IRA weren't militarily defeated.

FrancieBrady · 20-07-2017 10:06AM

blanch152 wrote: »

The GFA also has the right to identify as British, so again, what is the problem with parts of the North looking like Finchley?

None. Because I never said there was a problem.

blanch152 · 20-07-2017 10:07AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

What's so wrong with having an Irish language act in Ireland???

Hardly ground shaking stuff tbh

I don't believe we needed an Irish language act in Ireland either, but whatever the merits of an Irish language act in Ireland, the North certainly doesn't need one for an artificially revived language. Ulster Irish died in the 1970s.

FrancieBrady · 20-07-2017 10:08AM

blanch152 wrote: »

A summary of public opinion constitutes evidence that the British cabinet didn't even consider unionists British? Are you seriously putting that out of context extract forward as evidence?

We are back to the fantasy world of one retired British general in one highly edited television interview being taken as conclusive evidence that the IRA weren't militarily defeated.

It isn't a fantasy.

A group that negotiates a settlement and only decommissions when that settlement is satisfactory cannot be described as being defeated.

FrancieBrady · 20-07-2017 10:13AM

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't believe we needed an Irish language act in Ireland either, but whatever the merits of an Irish language act in Ireland, the North certainly doesn't need one for an artificially revived language. Ulster Irish died in the 1970s.

Of course you don't believe in a vibrant Irish language culture (which this act will promote) but it isn't about 'you'.
It is about the people who identify as Irish and who are electing again and again, in increasing numbers, a party that is seeking an act on their behalf.
A party that has already agreed this with the British government who have now suspended governing with another party who have sought to cherrypick only what is acceptable to their religiously fundamentalist and culturally bigoted code.

Some of the very behaviour that led to the conflict in the first place.

tomwaterford · 20-07-2017 11:02AM

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't believe we needed an Irish language act in Ireland either, but whatever the merits of an Irish language act in Ireland, the North certainly doesn't need one for an artificially revived language. Ulster Irish died in the 1970s.

Sure we know you dislike Irish culture

Professor Moriarty · 20-07-2017 11:07AM

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't believe we needed an Irish language act in Ireland either, but whatever the merits of an Irish language act in Ireland, the North certainly doesn't need one for an artificially revived language. Ulster Irish died in the 1970s.

OK. So let's leave the Irish Language die and let's leave parading die. Deal?

Irishweather · 20-07-2017 12:33PM

People on this forum discuss the Constitutional position of my country much more often than in day to day affairs here in Northern Ireland.

I know this is a political forum, but I just would to post that little piece of information to put some perspective/clarity into the current situation.

A United Ireland will probably happen at some stage, but not for several decades most likely, hence the topic is not on most people's minds at all.

end of the road · 20-07-2017 12:52PM

blanch152 wrote: »

The North is part of the UK and the majority of people up there want it to remain so. What is wrong with it being like Finchley?

everything is wrong with it. it will never be truely like Finchley, the people there are not and never will be british. northern ireland is part of ireland, ruled by britain, but the people are irish. the british people don't recognise them as being british either.

Irishweather · 20-07-2017 12:57PM

There is no true British identity. The idea of being as "British as Finchely" is daft, we in Northern Ireland cannot be as British as Finchely because our culture is distinctly different in contrast to Finchely and other areas of England.The same can be said about Scotland and Wales, each regions of the United Kingdom which also have their own distinct cultures.

You must recognise, at the very least, the unique culture (not discussing Orange Order) in places such as North Antrim which is very much influenced by Scotland.

I'm not cluthing at straws here, merely looking at the reality of the cultures in Northern Ireland and how they differ quite substantially to the Irish of the South.

tomwaterford · 20-07-2017 01:00PM

Irishweather wrote: »

I'm not cluthing at straws here, merely looking at the reality of the cultures in Northern Ireland and how they differ quite substantially to the Irish of the South.

Perhaps you can try expand on what is substantially different culturally between both places??

Irishweather · 20-07-2017 01:01PM

Religion, way of Life, attitudes, historical perspective.

FrancieBrady · 20-07-2017 01:03PM

Irishweather wrote: »

There is no true British identity. The idea of being as "British as Finchely" is daft, we in Northern Ireland cannot be as British as Finchely because our culture is distinctly different in comparison to Finchely and other areas of England.The same can be said about Scotland and Wales, each regions of the United Kingdom which also have their own distinct cultures.

You must recognise, at the very least, the unique culture (not discussing Orange Order) in places such as North Antrim which is very much influenced by Scotland.

I'm not cluthing at straws here, merely looking at the reality of the cultures in Northern Ireland and how they differ quite substantially to the Irish of the South.

And all that is being asked in the interests of 'equality' is that the Irish culture and the language be recognised.
Nobody is threatening the links to Scotland or to whatever borough in Britain they fancy.
None of the cultures in the north or the south differ 'substantially'.

Irishweather · 20-07-2017 01:05PM

So you think cultures in Northern Ireland are a conglomerate in reality? Really?

FrancieBrady · 20-07-2017 01:06PM

Irishweather wrote: »

So you think cultures in Northern Ireland are a conglomerate in reality? Really?

What?

Irishweather · 20-07-2017 01:07PM

Do you think the respective cultures are the same as one another?

LeinsterDub · 20-07-2017 01:08PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And all that is being asked in the interests of 'equality' is that the Irish culture and the language be recognised.
Nobody is threatening the links to Scotland or to whatever borough in Britain they fancy.
None of the cultures in the north or the south differ 'substantially'.

Why can't Irish be recognised alongside Ulster Scots, even if you refuse to accept Ulster Scots as a language?

Do a Dev, cross your fingers about the bits you don't like and be pragmatic

Stormont power sharing talks

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