Stormont power sharing talks

steddyeddy wrote: »

Apart from the fact it's not a language. Have you any papers detailing whether it's a language? I have a few.

As opposed to the artificially reborn Irish language?

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's a blatant attempt to prevent the 'greening' of the north and a general neuroticism about anything that makes the northeast of Ireland more like the rest of the island and less like Finchley.

Also, Arlene's 'if you feed a crocodile' statement provides us with a little insight to the Unionist mindset. They still believe they own/control 'the food' and will share it out however they damn please.

The North is part of the UK and the majority of people up there want it to remain so. What is wrong with it being like Finchley?

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I don't think either party is genuinely interested in preserving endangered languages or dialects. Instead it's more about finding an issue to antagonise each other. Do you honestly think that if the positions were reversed (i.e. if the DUP were aligned with a language and SF with a dialect) they wouldn't be having the exact same row, the only difference being that the arguments would be made by opposite sides, with SF arguing for parity between the two and the DUP saying it isn't a real language etc.?

You have hit the nail on the head here. Tiny numbers speak the artificially created Ulster Scots and slightly less tiny numbers speak the artificially rejuvenated Ulster Irish.

And it is the main reason preventing a government being formed. Only in Northern Ireland.

blanch152 wrote: »

The North is part of the UK and the majority of people up there want it to remain so. What is wrong with it being like Finchley?

You are as usual in your attempt to somehow blame those who identify as Irish forgetting the existence of the GFA which enshrines the right to identify as Irish and all that comes with that.

The fact is that the majority who identify as Irish request this act. If they didn't they wouldn't be e!ecting the party looking for it most stridenrly in bigger and bigger numbers.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

The North is part of the UK

The northeast is currently under UK jurisdiction subject to change as laid out in the GFA, it's part of Ireland, always has been, and always will be.

and the majority of people up there want it to remain so.

We don't know that for sure. How can you tell if the majority want to keep Westminster bankrolling the place if there's no discussion about what a UI might look like?

What is wrong with it being like Finchley?

It was never like Finchley. People in Finchley would not feel at home in the northeast of Ireland, especially during the marching season when it's supposed to be at its most 'British', Bowler hats haven't been fashionable headwear in Finchley for decades.

steddyeddy

blanch152 wrote: »

The North is part of the UK and the majority of people up there want it to remain so. What is wrong with it being like Finchley?

I suppose the fact that it isn't. Partition created an unusual situation where loyalists like Carson were in the majority. This lead to a polarisation of the nationalist community and 3 decades of troubles. The Irish in the North were ignored and discriminated against for most of the North's existence. Claiming that it's in the UK therefore it must be like Finchely is ignoring the North's history and the fact that it's in Ireland, populated by a lot of Irish people.

steddyeddy

blanch152 wrote: »

As opposed to the artificially reborn Irish language?

Yes it's still a dialect. Irish was also artificially repressed. Time to rectify that.

steddyeddy wrote: »

I suppose the fact that it isn't. Partition created an unusual situation where loyalists like Carson were in the majority. This lead to a polarisation of the nationalist community and 3 decades of troubles. The Irish in the North were ignored and discriminated against for most of the North's existence. Claiming that it's in the UK therefore it must be like Finchely is ignoring the North's history and the fact that it's in Ireland, populated by a lot of Irish people.

Irish people would in fact have been much less discriminated against in Finchley than they were in the artificially created sectarian state created out of their homeland to cater for unionists.

steddyeddy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Irish people would in fact have been much less discriminated against in Finchley than they were in the artificially created sectarian state created out of their homeland to cater for unionists.

The history of the North is the history of pandering to extremists like Carson. It's given unionists a sense of entitlment that manifests as a denial of any Irish culture.

Junkyard Tom

steddyeddy wrote: »

I suppose the fact that it isn't.

An excerpt of a summary of the confidential minutes of a British cabinet meeting in 1981 below:

nationalarchives.gov.uk

The British cabinet didn't even consider unionists British. It was a matter for 'the Irish on thier own' and 'British lives' were being sacrificed.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

An excerpt of a summary of the confidential minutes of a British cabinet meeting in 1981 below:

nationalarchives.gov.uk

The British cabinet didn't even consider unionists British. It was a matter for 'the Irish on thier own' and 'British lives' were being sacrificed.

The 'insecurity' that dare not speak it's name. It is behind everything, from gerrymandering to the flag to the Irish language act, that unionists have ever done.
And its the reason ultimately why there is no executive.

tomwaterford

blanch152 wrote: »

As opposed to the artificially reborn Irish language?

What's so wrong with having an Irish language act in Ireland???

Hardly ground shaking stuff tbh

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are as usual in your attempt to somehow blame those who identify as Irish forgetting the existence of the GFA which enshrines the right to identify as Irish and all that comes with that.

The fact is that the majority who identify as Irish request this act. If they didn't they wouldn't be e!ecting the party looking for it most stridenrly in bigger and bigger numbers.

The GFA also has the right to identify as British, so again, what is the problem with parts of the North looking like Finchley?

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

An excerpt of a summary of the confidential minutes of a British cabinet meeting in 1981 below:

nationalarchives.gov.uk

The British cabinet didn't even consider unionists British. It was a matter for 'the Irish on thier own' and 'British lives' were being sacrificed.

A summary of public opinion constitutes evidence that the British cabinet didn't even consider unionists British? Are you seriously putting that out of context extract forward as evidence?

We are back to the fantasy world of one retired British general in one highly edited television interview being taken as conclusive evidence that the IRA weren't militarily defeated.

blanch152 wrote: »

The GFA also has the right to identify as British, so again, what is the problem with parts of the North looking like Finchley?

None. Because I never said there was a problem.

tomwaterford wrote: »

What's so wrong with having an Irish language act in Ireland???

Hardly ground shaking stuff tbh

I don't believe we needed an Irish language act in Ireland either, but whatever the merits of an Irish language act in Ireland, the North certainly doesn't need one for an artificially revived language. Ulster Irish died in the 1970s.

blanch152 wrote: »

A summary of public opinion constitutes evidence that the British cabinet didn't even consider unionists British? Are you seriously putting that out of context extract forward as evidence?

We are back to the fantasy world of one retired British general in one highly edited television interview being taken as conclusive evidence that the IRA weren't militarily defeated.

It isn't a fantasy.

A group that negotiates a settlement and only decommissions when that settlement is satisfactory cannot be described as being defeated.

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't believe we needed an Irish language act in Ireland either, but whatever the merits of an Irish language act in Ireland, the North certainly doesn't need one for an artificially revived language. Ulster Irish died in the 1970s.

Of course you don't believe in a vibrant Irish language culture (which this act will promote) but it isn't about 'you'.
It is about the people who identify as Irish and who are electing again and again, in increasing numbers, a party that is seeking an act on their behalf.
A party that has already agreed this with the British government who have now suspended governing with another party who have sought to cherrypick only what is acceptable to their religiously fundamentalist and culturally bigoted code.

Some of the very behaviour that led to the conflict in the first place.

tomwaterford

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't believe we needed an Irish language act in Ireland either, but whatever the merits of an Irish language act in Ireland, the North certainly doesn't need one for an artificially revived language. Ulster Irish died in the 1970s.

Sure we know you dislike Irish culture

Professor Moriarty

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't believe we needed an Irish language act in Ireland either, but whatever the merits of an Irish language act in Ireland, the North certainly doesn't need one for an artificially revived language. Ulster Irish died in the 1970s.

OK. So let's leave the Irish Language die and let's leave parading die. Deal?

People on this forum discuss the Constitutional position of my country much more often than in day to day affairs here in Northern Ireland.

I know this is a political forum, but I just would to post that little piece of information to put some perspective/clarity into the current situation.

A United Ireland will probably happen at some stage, but not for several decades most likely, hence the topic is not on most people's minds at all.

end of the road

blanch152 wrote: »

The North is part of the UK and the majority of people up there want it to remain so. What is wrong with it being like Finchley?

everything is wrong with it. it will never be truely like Finchley, the people there are not and never will be british. northern ireland is part of ireland, ruled by britain, but the people are irish. the british people don't recognise them as being british either.

There is no true British identity. The idea of being as "British as Finchely" is daft, we in Northern Ireland cannot be as British as Finchely because our culture is distinctly different in contrast to Finchely and other areas of England.The same can be said about Scotland and Wales, each regions of the United Kingdom which also have their own distinct cultures.

You must recognise, at the very least, the unique culture (not discussing Orange Order) in places such as North Antrim which is very much influenced by Scotland.

I'm not cluthing at straws here, merely looking at the reality of the cultures in Northern Ireland and how they differ quite substantially to the Irish of the South.

tomwaterford

Irishweather wrote: »

I'm not cluthing at straws here, merely looking at the reality of the cultures in Northern Ireland and how they differ quite substantially to the Irish of the South.

Perhaps you can try expand on what is substantially different culturally between both places??

Religion, way of Life, attitudes, historical perspective.

Irishweather wrote: »

There is no true British identity. The idea of being as "British as Finchely" is daft, we in Northern Ireland cannot be as British as Finchely because our culture is distinctly different in comparison to Finchely and other areas of England.The same can be said about Scotland and Wales, each regions of the United Kingdom which also have their own distinct cultures.

You must recognise, at the very least, the unique culture (not discussing Orange Order) in places such as North Antrim which is very much influenced by Scotland.

I'm not cluthing at straws here, merely looking at the reality of the cultures in Northern Ireland and how they differ quite substantially to the Irish of the South.

And all that is being asked in the interests of 'equality' is that the Irish culture and the language be recognised.
Nobody is threatening the links to Scotland or to whatever borough in Britain they fancy.
None of the cultures in the north or the south differ 'substantially'.

So you think cultures in Northern Ireland are a conglomerate in reality? Really?

Irishweather wrote: »

So you think cultures in Northern Ireland are a conglomerate in reality? Really?

What?