So it's the 12th of July tomorrow. Will the North ever not be sectarian?

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 04:25PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am sure KKK barbies were/are 'good fun' if you can turn a blind eye to what is really going on and what the cover organisation stands for.

Is the rationale for attending something the amount of 'fun' you are having?

What is really going on then Francie? You tell us. In saying that maybe I should have watched more closely when that OO grand wizard made my kids take that blood oath. I was too busy on the bouncy castle at the time though..

You are a perfect example of the sort of person I was referring to at the end of my post 372. You have more issues than just the OO methinks.

Sofiztikated · 13-07-2017 04:27PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Well considering it's a Protestant religious grouping at heart it's sectarian in the same way that the Catholic Church would be for example.

Not really. The CC doesn't forbid you becoming a member, if you were ever a member of/married to a member of the OO. The Orange Order does.

The oo organises the 12th parades but check out the number of those who attend the oo speeches in the field and you will see that the vast majority don't give a monkeys about all that. If the OO stopped tomorrow then the 12th could still be celebrated by the bands.

When I was going, staying in the field was passed off for going and getting wankered in a pub. And from what I saw yesterday, getting ****faced is still the order of the day.

Religion in general is a nonsense in my opinion but it's here to stay for the foreseeable future.

The 12th can be and is a fun day out for most that go to it. You may not like that, you may not agree with it but I'm one of the few people on these boards who is a NI unionist and actually has attended the 12th in various places in the country.

I've attended parades all over. 12th July, 12th August, Last Saturdays, along with a whole host of smaller regional parades. A member of 1 band, represented various lodges, started to become a member of the OO.

For those that attend, they have a great time. If you're not part of the right group? Go **** yourself very much, and have a Union Jack dildo to do it.

It's absurd.

Junkyard Tom · 13-07-2017 04:27PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Married 6 years ago. We're together 16.

Only six years ago and you lost friends over it? That's a shame, I thought that the heat had gone out of all that mixed marriage stuff. The politicians should be working on secularizing the north.

red ears · 13-07-2017 04:29PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

This so much. My Catholic wife's family from Monaghan give no sweet ****s about me being Protestant (Athiest really, but still, Protestant :rolleyes: )

I used to go to the 12th day stuff, and end up on the session with the Catholic lads back at home. There'd be some ribbing, but nothing serious.

Not a ****ing chance would I bring the Mrs to an after 12th session, like I worked last night. She has expressed interest and curiosity about it, but no. Not happening, **** can get mean.

I have, well had, friends just north of the Border that haven't talked to me since my wedding.

All my brothers and sisters are "mixed" marriages. I got a bit of **** from my mother when I started going out with my wife, but I persisted. We recently spoke about it, and she apologised. Twas mostly to do with "family image," which I can understand, as she came from a different time, and that she just went along with it, as it was the routine, as I did when I was younger. She adores my wife.

Honestly, talking with the other barmen last night, Catholic and Protestant, they treated it with bemusement.

These people are people they see regularly. Local community, people that own or work in the same shops, factories, offices they all use. Some frequent the pub regularly enough that names, rounds, and favourite crisp flavour is known. It's just in July and August, they go a bit mental.

There was one chap there, 364 days of the year, he's a card carry, flag waving, super queeny, hairdresser, living with his Catholic boyfriend. Last night, he's singing the Sash, and talking about "taigs stopping us do xyz."

And every bar person just wanted them to go home, so they could clean up, and get ready for the next day.

That's very interesting to hear Sofiztikated, many of us have always suspected attitudes like that are rampant among the protestant community. It comes to a bit of a crescendo i'm sure on the 12th.

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2017 04:39PM

timthumbni wrote: »

What is really going on then Francie? You tell us. In saying that maybe I should have watched more closely when that OO grand wizard made my kids take that blood oath. I was too busy on the bouncy castle at the time though..

You are a perfect example of the sort of person I was referring to at the end of my post 372. You have more issues than just the OO methinks.

Make no mistake, I have 'issues'.

The OO have engaged in fostering sectarian tensions, have been associated with loyalists military groups, have a constitution which has as a tenet the domination of catholics.
9 OO members founded the Unionist party and went on to run the Orange state which exploded in conflict due to civil rights abuses.
The OO have not modernised or diluted any of their aims.

That will do for a start but if you or anyone else is still ignorant as to what 'is going on' Google is your friend.

Start with this maybe:

It is no coincidence that the LVF, the one terrorist faction which insists on its members attending religious services and reading the Good Book, was spawned at Drumcree. The LVF, for all its involvement in sectarian criminality and extortion, represents what can be called 'evangelical loyalist terrorism'. It believes that it is not only fighting to defend the Union but also the Protestant faith.

In rural areas of Ulster, there is a sizeable faction of Protestants and loyalists who regard Catholics and nationalists as an ever-present danger to both their temporal and spiritual well-being. One of the most truculent Protestant preachers is Pastor Alan Campbell, a former member of Ian Paisley's Free Presbyterian Church, who has since set up his own religious grouping which regurgitates the fantasy that the people of Ulster are the lost tribe of Israel.

Campbell has penned a raft of anti-Catholic pamphlets with titles such as 'The Beast Has a Banner'. In his taped sermons, he refers to Catholics as 'people of the wafer God'.

Some might dismiss the likes of Campbell as sectarian cranks but as John D. Brewer points out in his chilling book, Anti-Catholicism in Northern Ireland: 1600-1998, anti-Catholic ideology is a robust virus, which replicates in times of crisis for the Ulster Protestant community.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jul/09/northernireland.comment

Great days out indeed. If my children were exposed to that bile in any way I would ring social services myself.
Amazing what a bouncy castle can help you ignore.

Conservative · 13-07-2017 04:39PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Conservative wrote: »

and then found out they're hardcore DUP supporters who play with their local pipe band - offensive if nothing else but ****ing dreadful the music is.

.

Out of interest why would you find someone being in a pipe band offensive. Of all the types of bands there are pipe bands are probably the most inoffensive you could find. It's not easy to riot wearing a kilt and carrying a set of bagpipes.

The sound of pipes are not to many people's liking. Mine included but they have a huge following. (Competition standard ones especially where one of the worlds best is from Dublin. (Laurence otoole)

My main issue is with the music tbh. I cannot understand why a young, well educated person would want to listen to or subject others to that awful bloody music.

I would view Republic commemorations etc. with equal disdain. The whole place just needs to ditch the silly pageantry and move the **** on.

munsterlegend · 13-07-2017 04:42PM

timthumbni wrote: »

As I said it's sectarian in the same way the Catholic Church would be. I refer you to my earlier post about how much anyone listens to the oo speeches in the field. Most nationalists give too much credit to the influence of the OO nowadays.

They of course need to modernise but all religions/religious orders find that hard.

You obviously have a dislike of the oo/12th parades etc etc. That is your right. i doubt you will bothered by bonfires all the way down in cork anyway.

What right thinking person outside those brought up thinking this was reasonable behaviour would find this acceptable? Events up north actually do have an effect on this island. Anyone looking at this would wonder what are these mad lads in Ireland up to? It's an archaic spectacle and to even compare it to a st Patrick's day parade which is essentially colourful floats is rediculous.

I have no problem with bonfires save for safety etc and burning timber like most level headed people. In fairness to honour billy fully ye should have lgbt community marching as well.

blanch152 · 13-07-2017 04:45PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am no expert on pipe bands but I take your point and still hold to mine about offensive lyrics deliberately sung at interfaces to provoke and offend.

Wasn't the only video example of that ever produced on here from Scotland?

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 04:49PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Not really. The CC doesn't forbid you becoming a member, if you were ever a member of/married to a member of the OO. The Orange Order does.

When I was going, staying in the field was passed off for going and getting wankered in a pub. And from what I saw yesterday, getting ****faced is still the order of the day.

I've attended parades all over. 12th July, 12th August, Last Saturdays, along with a whole host of smaller regional parades. A member of 1 band, represented various lodges, started to become a member of the OO.

For those that attend, they have a great time. If you're not part of the right group? Go **** yourself very much, and have a Union Jack dildo to do it.

It's absurd.

A friend of mine was getting married to a catholic girl. Her priest refused to be involved in the wedding unless they made a commitment to raise any child as catholic. A fairly poor reflection on the cc. And yes the oo rules are somewhat stupid in parts. But I think all religions are stupid....

Re getting ****faced yes that's what a lot do. I already have referred to that in a previous post. And I'm not going to lecture anyone for having a drink. As long as people behave then it's no concern of mine. Drinking is an issue for the whole of British and Irish society not limited to the 12th or any other day.

Re the Union Jack dildo (another image to erase) that's a fact of life in NI. I already commented that if you weren't into your union flags and Norn Iron stuff then it's probably not for you. (Though I do know Catholics who attend our local 12th) Just as the Belfast St paddys day is not welcoming to me personally but I don't whine about it and can accept others who will enjoy it as a great day out. That's the nature of society in NI where even sports etc are more or less divided in unionist/nationalist lines.

My kids get money for the 12th every year without fail from a catholic neighbour. He wishes us a good day and that's the way it can be and should be.

I have never been in a band (not a tune in my head) or the oo itself but know all the craic regarding it from family and friends and by attending it over the years.

I too have been at all the parades you refer to. My favourite being the apprentice boys.

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 04:56PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Make no mistake, I have 'issues'.

Great days out indeed. If my children were exposed to that bile in any way I would ring social services myself.
Amazing what a bouncy castle can help you ignore.

Yes, it's quite " obvious " you have issues.

Re social services I almost choked on my pimms. Grow up for goodness sake. And re the bouncy castle I was only joking about that. The guy said I was too old to get on..........

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2017 04:59PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Yes, it's quite " obvious " you have issues.

Re social services I almost choked on my pimms. Grow up for goodness sake. And re the bouncy castle I was only joking about that. The guy said I was too old to get on..........

You think it is ok to expose children to the doctrine of the OO? Appalling really if you think about it at any level.

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 05:01PM

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If you really want to talk about people being brainwashed early then it's education where you should be pointing your binoculars towards, not the fecking 12th bouncy castles.

Junkyard Tom · 13-07-2017 05:01PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Wasn't the only video example of that ever produced on here from Scotland?

No. Here's 'The Pride of Ardoyne' singing it a few years ago. I've very little doubt it still goes on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ivJaTFZ26k

The utter idiocy of people who describe themselves as 'British Only', having not lived there for generations, telling Irish people from Ireland to 'go home' is lost on these poor dimwits.

Yamanoto · 13-07-2017 05:05PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You think it is ok to expose children to the doctrine of the OO? Appalling really if you think about it at any level.

Says a dyed-in-the-wool supporter of the Provisional IRA - an organisation who have blown children to smithereens.

Amazes me sometimes, the sheer lack of self-knowledge some folks display hereabouts.

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 05:09PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You think it is ok to expose children to the doctrine of the OO? Appalling really if you think about it at any level.

You see Francie, you appear to see "reds under the bed" all around when it comes to the OO and the 12th/11th/unionists in general. Again if you are really concerned about kids being exposed to doctrine then you only need look at the education system. Have you called social services about that???? Or is that the right type of doctrine?????

Obsession is not just a perfume by Calvin Klein you know......

red ears · 13-07-2017 05:09PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The utter idiocy of people who describe themselves as 'British Only', having not lived there for generations, telling Irish people from Ireland to 'go home' is lost on these poor dimwits.

Yeah utterly ridiculous.. That could very well be the dictionary definition of absurd.

Sofiztikated · 13-07-2017 05:11PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Only six years ago and you lost friends over it? That's a shame, I thought that the heat had gone out of all that mixed marriage stuff. The politicians should be working on secularizing the north.

Yeah, I haven't lost sleep over it. If they don't want to know me, because of my choice of partner, who had the absolute audacity to be baptised as an infant, in a belief system that is BARELY different, then it's their loss.

Conservative wrote: »

My main issue is with the music tbh. I cannot understand why a young, well educated person would want to listen to or subject others to that awful bloody music.

I would view Republic commemorations etc. with equal disdain. The whole place just needs to ditch the silly pageantry and move the **** on.

I disagree about the music. The flute bands, in particular, are quite talented. The melodies, the snap of the snares, musically I think are brilliant. The drums are especially good at getting people whipped up. It's just a shame the latent "**** the taigs" comes through.

A way to go with it would be to turn it into a music competition of sorts, inviting bands from all walks, local marching bands from all over, all races and beliefs (or lack thereof), and completely obliterate any sectarianism. Actually turn it into a family thing, no matter who or what that family consists of. Preserve the model, remove the scourge. That idea IS Northern Ireland, and it's identity.

Last year, at AVA Festival in Belfast, a live streamed DJ set at one point included a sample of a flute band drum snare. The local crowd loved it, because everyone recognised it, but no ****ty intent was behind it. I thought it was genius.

red ears wrote: »

That's very interesting to hear Sofiztikated, many of us have always suspected attitudes like that are rampant among the protestant community. It comes to a bit of a crescendo i'm sure on the 12th.

Having said that, I know quite a few families that just remove themselves from it altogether. Protestant families, church every Sunday, that leave the North completely this week. They just want to get by, worship their God, but not infringe on others.

seachto7 · 13-07-2017 05:11PM

We have to share an island with these folks....

Another question. Adams is on about trying to convince unionists of the advantages of a united Ireland.

In a united Ireland, unionists would no longer be unionists, so how would they "celebrate" their Britishness every year?

Junkyard Tom · 13-07-2017 05:15PM

seachto7 wrote: »

in a united Ireland ... how would they "celebrate" their Britishness every year?

In the exact same way as they do now, presumably.

OldMrBrennan83 · 13-07-2017 05:16PM

This post has been deleted.

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 05:18PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I disagree about the music. The flute bands, in particular, are quite talented. The melodies, the snap of the snares, musically I think are brilliant. The drums are especially good at getting people whipped up. It's just a shame the latent "**** the taigs" comes through.

A way to go with it would be to turn it into a music competition of sorts, inviting bands from all walks, local marching bands from all over, all races and beliefs (or lack thereof), and completely obliterate any sectarianism. Actually turn it into a family thing, no matter who or what that family consists of. Preserve the model, remove the scourge. That idea IS Northern Ireland, and it's identity.

Last year, at AVA Festival in Belfast, a live streamed DJ set at one point included a sample of a flute band drum snare. The local crowd loved it, because everyone recognised it, but no ****ty intent was behind it. I thought it was genius.

Having said that, I know quite a few families that just remove themselves from it altogether. Protestant families, church every Sunday, that leave the North completely this week. They just want to get by, worship their God, but not infringe on others.

There is already a scene where the flute or melody bands compete. As for pipes the competition scene is huge and NI has won the world championships numerous times. (Field Marshall Montgomery) much to the annoyance of the Scottish.

As you say some of the flute bands are very good. The pipes I hate the sound of but that's a personal thing.

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2017 05:23PM

Yamanoto wrote: »

Says a dyed-in-the-wool supporter of the Provisional IRA - an organisation who have blown children to smithereens.

Amazes me sometimes, the sheer lack of self-knowledge some folks display hereabouts.

I am a 'dyed-in-the-wool supporter of the IRA?? You will need to back that up, I never supported the IRA or any political party for that matter.

Now, on the subject of the thread, 'Sectarianism'. Are the OO the biggest facilitators of sectarianism left to be dealt with in northern Ireland?

Yes they are. The 12th passed off peacefully yesterday primarily because they have finally accepted that they don't have an inalienable right to foist their sectarian taunting and constitutionally endorsed (the OO constitution/mandate) supremacy and bigotry on those that don't want it.

We cannot brush under the carpet what remains to be done when we see what happens on the 11th.

ohnonotgmail · 13-07-2017 05:26PM

timthumbni wrote: »

There is already a scene where the flute or melody bands compete. As for pipes the competition scene is huge and NI has won the world championships numerous times. (Field Marshall Montgomery) much to the annoyance of the Scottish.

As you say some of the flute bands are very good. The pipes I hate the sound of but that's a personal thing.

More of a pipes and drums man myself. probably the scottish blood in me.

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2017 05:26PM

timthumbni wrote: »

You see Francie, you appear to see "reds under the bed" all around when it comes to the OO and the 12th/11th/unionists in general. Again if you are really concerned about kids being exposed to doctrine then you only need look at the education system. Have you called social services about that???? Or is that the right type of doctrine?????

Obsession is not just a perfume by Calvin Klein you know......

The education system is spreading a doctrine of sectarianism and religious supremacy? Do show.

If you think that it is ok to expose children to that kind of suprematism and sectarianism, knock yourself out. I would call it a form of abuse tbh.

I protect my children from that bile as I suspect 99.9% of parents do.

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 05:34PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

More of a pipes and drums man myself. probably the scottish blood in me.

Well I've Scottish blood too but the pipes sound like the screams of a fox in the night (or as Irish people like to call them banshees) to me.

Love the big drum sound. Gets you in the heart from miles away. Always the guys on them you wouldn't want to start a row with in the pub as they all seem to have arms like a Russian hammer thrower...

The_Kew_Tour · 13-07-2017 05:36PM

The irony of the famine song is lost on some of them

Plenty of Protestants died in Famine too

Sofiztikated · 13-07-2017 05:50PM

timthumbni wrote: »

A friend of mine was getting married to a catholic girl. Her priest refused to be involved in the wedding unless they made a commitment to raise any child as catholic. A fairly poor reflection on the cc. And yes the oo rules are somewhat stupid in parts. But I think all religions are stupid....

Even if they didn't raise the child Catholic, they aren't evicted from the Catholic Church.

Get married to a Catholic, you are out the Orange door quick sticks.

Re the Union Jack dildo (another image to erase) that's a fact of life in NI. I already commented that if you weren't into your union flags and Norn Iron stuff then it's probably not for you. (Though I do know Catholics who attend our local 12th) Just as the Belfast St paddys day is not welcoming to me personally but I don't whine about it and can accept others who will enjoy it as a great day out. That's the nature of society in NI where even sports etc are more or less divided in unionist/nationalist lines.

I don't know anything about the Belfast Paddys Day parade, so am not fit to comment there. Is it less of a "Waaaayyyyy, Jaysus, aren't we all Irish?" bolixology and more of a "**** you because your a Prod?"

My kids get money for the 12th every year without fail from a catholic neighbour. He wishes us a good day and that's the way it can be and should be.

Agree. If someone does something different to me, and they enjoy it? Bang on ahead. I've wished people good luck on all sorts of things, from weddings, to parades, to biker rallies, to whatever.

I have never been in a band (not a tune in my head) or the oo itself but know all the craic regarding it from family and friends and by attending it over the years.

I've barely a note in my head, and I managed. Doesn't say much for the quality of the band I was in, as I was considered one of our stronger players.

I too have been at all the parades you refer to. My favourite being the apprentice boys.

It's been about 18 years (****, really) since I was last at the Apprentice Boys in Derry.

It genuinely was good craic at the time.

Wouldn't go now, though.

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 05:50PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The education system is spreading a doctrine of sectarianism and religious supremacy? Do show.

If you think that it is ok to expose children to that kind of suprematism and sectarianism, knock yourself out. I would call it a form of abuse tbh.

I protect my children from that bile as I suspect 99.9% of parents do.

Was you on the phone to social services at this Francie?

seachto7 · 13-07-2017 05:51PM

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Maybe I'm stupid, but has anyone asked this question yet in public? I mean, let's say there was a united Ireland in a few years. Loyalists would suddenly be in the minority, and no longer be loyalists, so would they, in protest, take up arms again to push for another UK statelet/wee country/province?

I mean, all well and good saying your culture will be protected in a united Ireland, but if your culture is "being British", then how would that work in a 32 county republic? Unless we give d'auld 26 back to Britain... :P

Orange culture is one thing, celebrating being Protestant, but we all know July 12th is about being Protestant and British. I don't think a bunch of proud Protestants from Tralee could go and march with the Kerry GAA flag/banner up there...

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2017 05:55PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Was you on the phone to social services at this Francie?

Are those children exposed to sectarianism and suprematist bile? Yes I would be concerned for them if that was the case.

You can engage in all the whataboutery you wish, it doesn't diminish what the OO stand for.

So it's the 12th of July tomorrow. Will the North ever not be sectarian?

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