So it's the 12th of July tomorrow. Will the North ever not be sectarian?

munsterlegend · 13-07-2017 02:19PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Celtic made that decision btw, not linfield. Celtic fans could have easily been accommodated at Windsor and would be dealt with the same way as when Cliftonville visit or the glens for that matter. Celtic playing the drama queens as usual.

In fact didn't Derry city fc play linfield in the setanta a few years back or was that someone else?

The facts a match has to be moved as it clashes with a holiday up north says it all really. Some bank holiday

munsterlegend · 13-07-2017 02:22PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Hmmmm. Tell that to the kingsmill victims of brave Irish �� republicans "open to all creeds and none"

Still doesn't change the fact that republicanism is open to all. The orange order never will be and is a relic of division. The Ira has been disbanded so should the orange order.

Sofiztikated · 13-07-2017 02:23PM

smeal wrote: »

Agreed.. to a certain extent. Yes, the majority of the sectarian/racist aggressive bombfires are mostly confined to Belfast. Bar the parades and the flegs, the majority of rural NI 12th celebrations incorporate more of a family fun day approach which both communities can easily enjoy however rural Unionist hostility towards Catholics is still commonplace. Coming from a cross-border family I know that many Catholic families are happy to join in with this side of the celebrations in this day and age however many Unionists wouldn't be welcome of it which is a shame mostly because of the "Catholic Hate" that is still preached by the Unionist Orders.

What I find a lot in rural NI is that many Unionists refuse to enter Catholic churches for funerals or weddings and would condemn their Protestant children marrying into Catholic families whereas the majority of Catholic families are the complete opposite and wouldn't flicker an eyelid. A lot of this comes from the combination of the Unionist Orders and the Catholic Bashing Presbyterian churches which are funding a lot of these Orders.

This so much. My Catholic wife's family from Monaghan give no sweet ****s about me being Protestant (Athiest really, but still, Protestant :rolleyes: )

I used to go to the 12th day stuff, and end up on the session with the Catholic lads back at home. There'd be some ribbing, but nothing serious.

Not a ****ing chance would I bring the Mrs to an after 12th session, like I worked last night. She has expressed interest and curiosity about it, but no. Not happening, **** can get mean.

I have, well had, friends just north of the Border that haven't talked to me since my wedding.

All my brothers and sisters are "mixed" marriages. I got a bit of **** from my mother when I started going out with my wife, but I persisted. We recently spoke about it, and she apologised. Twas mostly to do with "family image," which I can understand, as she came from a different time, and that she just went along with it, as it was the routine, as I did when I was younger. She adores my wife.

6541 wrote: »

That is some insight - I would love to get more views from Northern Catholics on this. Living down south I have no idea how to interact with these people.

Honestly, talking with the other barmen last night, Catholic and Protestant, they treated it with bemusement.

These people are people they see regularly. Local community, people that own or work in the same shops, factories, offices they all use. Some frequent the pub regularly enough that names, rounds, and favourite crisp flavour is known. It's just in July and August, they go a bit mental.

There was one chap there, 364 days of the year, he's a card carry, flag waving, super queeny, hairdresser, living with his Catholic boyfriend. Last night, he's singing the Sash, and talking about "taigs stopping us do xyz."

And every bar person just wanted them to go home, so they could clean up, and get ready for the next day.

citytillidie · 13-07-2017 02:23PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Celtic made that decision btw, not linfield. Celtic fans could have easily been accommodated at Windsor and would be dealt with the same way as when Cliftonville visit or the glens for that matter. Celtic playing the drama queens as usual.

In fact didn't Derry city fc play linfield in the setanta a few years back or was that someone else?

I know Celtic made the decision that is based on Celtic fans based on safety for those travelling from Scotland and the potential of Scottish based Linfield fans also travelling over.

Derry played Linfield a few times in the Setanta Cup

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 02:25PM

munsterlegend wrote: »

The facts a match has to be moved as it clashes with a holiday up north says it all really. Some bank holiday

If it had been known that Celtic were going to act like a bunch of scared teenagers at a Friday the 13th get together and not take their tickets then the match could have went ahead on the 11th.

Nice payday for linfield though. Great lift for a wee NI club in the Irish league to play a huge team like the bhoyos. May be a cricket score but if the blues get the guts of a million squid out of it then happy days.

munsterlegend · 13-07-2017 02:33PM

timthumbni wrote: »

If it had been known that Celtic were going to act like a bunch of scared teenagers at a Friday the 13th get together and not take their tickets then the match could have went ahead on the 11th.

Nice payday for linfield though. Great lift for a wee NI club in the Irish league to play a huge team like the bhoyos. May be a cricket score but if the blues get the guts of a million squid out of it then happy days.

How could Celtic go there on the 11th and play a football match? The police services have enough crap to be dealing with than this added on top. Who knows what would have happened and maybe it would pass without incident but the risk was too big. Celtic fans would have come without issue. The club made a call given the time of year which was a wise move.

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 02:40PM

munsterlegend wrote: »

How could Celtic go there on the 11th and play a football match? The police services have enough crap to be dealing with than this added on top. Who knows what would have happened and maybe it would pass without incident but the risk was too big. Celtic fans would have come without issue. The club made a call given the time of year which was a wise move.

I meant that if they weren't taking their allocation anyway then it could easily have went ahead. Too late now anyway.

Junkyard Tom · 13-07-2017 02:41PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

This so much. My Catholic wife's family from Monaghan give no sweet ****s about me being Protestant (Athiest really, but still, Protestant :rolleyes: )

I used to go to the 12th day stuff, and end up on the session with the Catholic lads back at home. There'd be some ribbing, but nothing serious.

Not a ****ing chance would I bring the Mrs to an after 12th session, like I worked last night. She has expressed interest and curiosity about it, but no. Not happening, **** can get mean.

I have, well had, friends just north of the Border that haven't talked to me since my wedding.

All my brothers and sisters are "mixed" marriages. I got a bit of **** from my mother when I started going out with my wife, but I persisted. We recently spoke about it, and she apologised. Twas mostly to do with "family image," which I can understand, as she came from a different time, and that she just went along with it, as it was the routine, as I did when I was younger. She adores my wife.

Do you mind if I ask how long ago you got married? I find these stories fascinating, the killing and bombing got the headlines but we rarely hear about the everyday community stuff. My cousin married a Protestant back in the mid 80's, I was a bit too young to care or understand, but I believe my Aunt was heart-broken about it.

Sofiztikated · 13-07-2017 02:45PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Do you mind if I ask how long ago you got married? I find these stories fascinating, the killing and bombing got the headlines but we rarely hear about the everyday community stuff. My cousin married a Protestant back in the mid 80's, I was a bit too young to care or understand, but I believe my Aunt was heart-broken about it.

Married 6 years ago. We're together 16.

NIMAN · 13-07-2017 02:57PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Do you mind if I ask how long ago you got married? I find these stories fascinating, the killing and bombing got the headlines but we rarely hear about the everyday community stuff. My cousin married a Protestant back in the mid 80's, I was a bit too young to care or understand, but I believe my Aunt was heart-broken about it.

I'd say they would rather have seen their child with a black partner than one of the opposite religion.

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 03:21PM

For those interested I attended the 12th yesterday. Not my local one but one closest to where we were staying.

I was there with my family. In fact I would go as far as saying we went only because the kids wanted to. I'm not religious personally. In fact I could be described as being hostile to religion at times.

Anyway it was a beautiful day yesterday which no doubt increased the number of those watching and made for quite a good spectacle. Catholics I know are always saying that the orangies always get the weather which imo is not the case but certainly the sun was out yesterday. The streets along the route were packed with people waiting on the bands going past that took about an hour or so to pass a single point.

The kids spent a few quid on some useless tat on some of the stalls set up. A red,white and blue stick and some drumsticks to be exact.

There was a fair bit of drinking on the street. My local 12th would frown on openly drinking on the street but I guess it varies on the location. I personally am not going to lecture anyone for having a drink as long as they behave and there was no signs of any trouble where I was yesterday. I even managed to have a few sneaky pints bought from a nearby bar (plastic glasses of course) whilst watching.

The orange lodges themselves are getting smaller and those in them are getting older. The bands themselves though are still looking in good health with the majority in them being young males(at least the flute bands anyway) The pipe bands looked dead on their feet by the end as it's not easy walking miles whilst blowing pipes.

The bands walk to a field and then have a break for a few hours. Some would have a drink. The more religious ones listen to speakers and sing hymns in an area of the field. They would be in the minority though.

The bands returned back to town from the field and the parade finished about half 5. The kids enjoyed it as simply bands walking past and not once during the day did I hear anyone mention the words catholic, fenian, etc, etc .

Most people who go to the 12th do so for a day out and to see old friends, family in the bands etc etc. Nothing more, nothing less. For them it's not about sticking 2 fingers up at themuns or anything more sinister.

If you are offended by union flags and the Norn Iron red hand flag then it's certainly not a day for you. Just like I don't feel comfortable on st paddys day in Belfast as everyone wears a tricolour flag/wig/Tshirt or whatever. It's not to my taste but I'm not going to attend so I won't spend half the year whinging about it.

The 12th for the most part is pretty tame actually. Certain people will for their own agenda try to demonise things like comparing it to a kkk march (it's really not) and saying repetitive slurs like it's their kkkulture and thinking they are the wittiest man in Ireland. You can spot these types a mile off and they will normally be crying into their Celtic boxers at night in front of a picture of Gerry Adams. (God that's an image that will need erased)

Conservative · 13-07-2017 03:23PM

I'm from the south but run a business in NI. We have offices in Portadown where I have Iived on and off over the years.

I have mixed feelings about the north. I have worked with people over the years who I've found nothing but decent and pleasant and then found out they're hardcore DUP supporters who play with their local pipe band - offensive if for nothing else but how ****ing dreadful the music is.

On the other hand you meet plenty of people on both sides who have no interest in any of the sectarian or political bull****.

I certainly wouldn't base my opinion on either side from meeting some fat chav in a pub in a holiday resort in Spain.

I'd say we are talking at least 50 years before a United Ireland has any chance of becoming a reality.

The sooner there is a move away from SF and DUP the better.

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 03:29PM

Conservative wrote: »

and then found out they're hardcore DUP supporters who play with their local pipe band - offensive if nothing else but ****ing dreadful the music is.

.

Out of interest why would you find someone being in a pipe band offensive. Of all the types of bands there are pipe bands are probably the most inoffensive you could find. It's not easy to riot wearing a kilt and carrying a set of bagpipes.

The sound of pipes are not to many people's liking. Mine included but they have a huge following. (Competition standard ones especially where one of the worlds best is from Dublin. (Laurence otoole)

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2017 03:34PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Out of interest why would you find someone being in a pipe band offensive. Of all the types of bands there are pipe bands are probably the most inoffensive you could find. It's not easy to riot wearing a kilt and carrying a set of bagpipes.

The sound of pipes are not to many people's liking. Mine included but they have a huge following. (Competition standard ones especially where one of the worlds best is from Dublin. (Laurence otoole)

There is nothing wrong with you expressing your Orangism. It is when you want to express that Orangism at the expense of others, or when you display your Orangism by singing offensive lyrics supported by pipe bands that there is a problem.

But finally you and the OO are realising that you cannot do that and have no inalienable right to do it. Not to mention that the point that it isn't 'culture' to demean others or intimidate others is no longer lost.

We now need to start cleaning up the 11th similarly.

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 03:38PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

or when you display your Orangism by singing offensive lyrics supported by pipe bands that there is a problem.

.

Have you ever heard anyone singing offensive lyrics supported by a pipe band? I know I haven't. In fact I've never heard anyone singing to a pipe band full stop. It's probably possible but it's certainly not commonplace.

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2017 03:40PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Have you ever heard anyone singing offensive lyrics supported by a pipe band? I know I haven't. In fact I've never heard anyone singing to a pipe band full stop. It's probably possible but it's certainly not commonplace.

I am no expert on pipe bands but I take your point and still hold to mine about offensive lyrics deliberately sung at interfaces to provoke and offend.

steddyeddy · 13-07-2017 03:41PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Have you ever heard anyone singing offensive lyrics supported by a pipe band? I know I haven't. In fact I've never heard anyone singing to a pipe band full stop. It's probably possible but it's certainly not commonplace.

Tim can you say the Orange Order, their members and the marchers on the 12th have no problem with Catholics or nationalists?

munsterlegend · 13-07-2017 03:44PM

timthumbni wrote: »

For those interested I attended the 12th yesterday. Not my local one but one closest to where we were staying.

I was there with my family. In fact I would go as far as saying we went only because the kids wanted to. I'm not religious personally. In fact I could be described as being hostile to religion at times.

Anyway it was a beautiful day yesterday which no doubt increased the number of those watching and made for quite a good spectacle. Catholics I know are always saying that the orangies always get the weather which imo is not the case but certainly the sun was out yesterday. The streets along the route were packed with people waiting on the bands going past that took about an hour or so to pass a single point.

The kids spent a few quid on some useless tat on some of the stalls set up. A red,white and blue stick and some drumsticks to be exact.

There was a fair bit of drinking on the street. My local 12th would frown on openly drinking on the street but I guess it varies on the location. I personally am not going to lecture anyone for having a drink as long as they behave and there was no signs of any trouble where I was yesterday. I even managed to have a few sneaky pints bought from a nearby bar (plastic glasses of course) whilst watching.

The orange lodges themselves are getting smaller and those in them are getting older. The bands themselves though are still looking in good health with the majority in them being young males(at least the flute bands anyway) The pipe bands looked dead on their feet by the end as it's not easy walking miles whilst blowing pipes.

The bands walk to a field and then have a break for a few hours. Some would have a drink. The more religious ones listen to speakers and sing hymns in an area of the field. They would be in the minority though.

The bands returned back to town from the field and the parade finished about half 5. The kids enjoyed it as simply bands walking past and not once during the day did I hear anyone mention the words catholic, fenian, etc, etc .

Most people who go to the 12th do so for a day out and to see old friends, family in the bands etc etc. Nothing more, nothing less. For them it's not about sticking 2 fingers up at themuns or anything more sinister.

If you are offended by union flags and the Norn Iron red hand flag then it's certainly not a day for you. Just like I don't feel comfortable on st paddys day in Belfast as everyone wears a tricolour flag/wig/Tshirt or whatever. It's not to my taste but I'm not going to attend so I won't spend half the year whinging about it.

The 12th for the most part is pretty tame actually. Certain people will for their own agenda try to demonise things like comparing it to a kkk march (it's really not) and saying repetitive slurs like it's their kkkulture and thinking they are the wittiest man in Ireland. You can spot these types a mile off and they will normally be crying into their Celtic boxers at night in front of a picture of Gerry Adams. (God that's an image that will need erased)

You are too blind to see what the orange order actually is. It's a sectarian organisation. Now you can have as many stalls and bouncy castles and try and portray it as 'fun' but at it's essence is hatred and supremacy.

Do you accept the orange order is a sectarian organisation?

OldMrBrennan83 · 13-07-2017 03:46PM

This post has been deleted.

red ears · 13-07-2017 03:48PM

citytillidie wrote: »

I know Celtic made the decision that is based on Celtic fans based on safety for those travelling from Scotland and the potential of Scottish based Linfield fans also travelling over.

Do Linfield get less money by Celtic fans not travelling. If so maybe Celtic did it out of badness.

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 03:52PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Tim can you say the Orange Order, their members and the marchers on the 12th have no problem with Catholics or nationalists?

I certainly would not try to speak for everyone and I'm quite sure that there are sectarian marchers, bandsmen and spectators. Just like there would be on the aoh parade days on the nationalist side. (Yes these do exist and they have more or less the same format as the 12th right down to bannerettes, lodges, bands (pipe,flute, accordion etc).

For the vast majority though it's just a day out. Nothing more, nothing less. Those that are sectarian will be sectarian whether it's the 12th or not just as there will be sectarian Catholics who will still be sectarian whether it's st paddys day or Halloween.

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2017 03:53PM

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Too many decent Unionists turn a blind eye to this behaviour. They should be encouraged not to.
But hope springs eternal when you see the fall off in OO membership. Hopefully the organisation will just fade away into bitter redundant sectarianism history.

munsterlegend · 13-07-2017 03:53PM

red ears wrote: »

Do Linfield get less money by Celtic fans not travelling. If so maybe Celtic did it out of badness.

The money for the club is in the tv rights to show the game.

LincolnsBeard · 13-07-2017 04:04PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

False equivalence. Nationalists haven't created a summer-long celebrated culture around being anti-Protestant/Unionist/British.

It's a false equivalence because you're a nationalist.

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 04:06PM

munsterlegend wrote: »

You are too blind to see what the orange order actually is. It's a sectarian organisation. Now you can have as many stalls and bouncy castles and try and portray it as 'fun' but at it's essence is hatred and supremacy.

Do you accept the orange order is a sectarian organisation?

Well considering it's a Protestant religious grouping at heart it's sectarian in the same way that the Catholic Church would be for example. The oo organises the 12th parades but check out the number of those who attend the oo speeches in the field and you will see that the vast majority don't give a monkeys about all that. If the OO stopped tomorrow then the 12th could still be celebrated by the bands.

Religion in general is a nonsense in my opinion but it's here to stay for the foreseeable future.

The 12th can be and is a fun day out for most that go to it. You may not like that, you may not agree with it but I'm one of the few people on these boards who is a NI unionist and actually has attended the 12th in various places in the country.

OldMrBrennan83 · 13-07-2017 04:08PM

This post has been deleted.

munsterlegend · 13-07-2017 04:09PM

timthumbni wrote: »

I certainly would not try to speak for everyone and I'm quite sure that there are sectarian marchers, bandsmen and spectators. Just like there would be on the aoh parade days on the nationalist side. (Yes these do exist and they have more or less the same format as the 12th right down to bannerettes, lodges, bands (pipe,flute, accordion etc).

For the vast majority though it's just a day out. Nothing more, nothing less. Those that are sectarian will be sectarian whether it's the 12th or not just as there will be sectarian Catholics who will still be sectarian whether it's st paddys day or Halloween.

Quite sure? You having a laugh? The order is based on a hatred and orange supremacy.

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2017 04:11PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Well considering it's a Protestant religious grouping at heart it's sectarian in the same way that the Catholic Church would be for example. The oo organises the 12th parades but check out the number of those who attend the oo speeches in the field and you will see that the vast majority don't give a monkeys about all that. If the OO stopped tomorrow then the 12th could still be celebrated by the bands.

Religion in general is a nonsense in my opinion but it's here to stay for the foreseeable future.

The 12th can be and is a fun day out for most that go to it. You may not like that, you may not agree with it but I'm one of the few people on these boards who is a NI unionist and actually has attended the 12th in various places in the country.

I am sure KKK barbies were/are 'good fun' if you can turn a blind eye to what is really going on and what the cover organisation stands for.

Is the rationale for attending something the amount of 'fun' you are having?

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 04:18PM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Quite sure? You having a laugh? The order is based on a hatred and orange supremacy.

As I said it's sectarian in the same way the Catholic Church would be. I refer you to my earlier post about how much anyone listens to the oo speeches in the field. Most nationalists give too much credit to the influence of the OO nowadays.

They of course need to modernise but all religions/religious orders find that hard.

You obviously have a dislike of the oo/12th parades etc etc. That is your right. i doubt you will bothered by bonfires all the way down in cork anyway.

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2017 04:22PM

timthumbni wrote: »

As I said it's sectarian in the same way the Catholic Church would be.

This is offensive belittling of what the OO has been engaged in for many years.
I am not a RC but I see no similarity in what they do and what the OO do.

I refer you to my earlier post about how much anyone listens to the oo speeches in the field. Most nationalists give too much credit to the influence of the OO nowadays.

They of course need to modernise but all religions/religious orders find that hard.

You obviously have a dislike of the oo/12th parades etc etc. That is your right. i doubt you will bothered by bonfires all the way down in cork anyway.

Where are the calls from Unionist leaders for the OO to disband, or modernise?
Where is the voice of ordinary people condemning the behaviour carried out in the name of Orangism.
That cannot be heard on the outskirts of Belfast, much less Cork.

So it's the 12th of July tomorrow. Will the North ever not be sectarian?

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