So it's the 12th of July tomorrow. Will the North ever not be sectarian?

ohnonotgmail · 13-07-2017 10:10AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Then the criteria needs to be changed to deal with ALL instances of bigotry.

The OO have a long history of engaging in these kinds of bigoted diatribes and still receive public funding and official respect. ANY organisation engaging in religiously bigoted activity needs to be heavily penalised (i.e. made to think again)

You cannot explain that away with 'celebration of culture' bull****ting.

Is he not entitled to his opinion? Was his statement incorrect? Blair would sell his soul to the devil and was certainly not loyal to his religion. You think they should be made to think again until their opinion is acceptable to you?

seamus · 13-07-2017 10:26AM

Ultimately a very heavy-handed response here is no good. Going in and carrying out widespread arrests or trying to ban bonfires altogether won't have the outcome you want.

The harder you push, the harder they'll push back. Who do you arrest and charge with hate crimes when you come upon a bonfire with an Irish flag on it? The person who put it there? The person who lights the fire?

Good luck finding someone to charge.

Basically the councils have to take control. The council defines where the bonfires go. On condition that it remains free of flags, picture, text or effigies. If anything appears on the stack, it gets pulled down and cancelled.

Go hard on unauthorised bonfires, bulldoze them as soon as they're found and shred the pallets. When the PSNI see a van or truck full of pallets going around the road, they seize and shred the load if they believe it's destined for a fire. Get the PSNI in full gear to go in and crack skulls while it's being removed, if necessary.

Within 5-10 years of this policy, the "culture" of 60 foot bonfires beside residential homes will go away because young people didn't grow up experiencing them.

This is what worked in Dublin with Halloween bonfires, as a result there are far fewer now than 20/30 years ago.

Of course, that would require political will. And the unionist parties aren't big on mending fences. They'd rather burn them.

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2017 10:28AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Is he not entitled to his opinion? Was his statement incorrect? Blair would sell his soul to the devil and was certainly not loyal to his religion. You think they should be made to think again until their opinion is acceptable to you?

What Blair does privately is not the business of the leader of an organisation. To be pilloried for the religion of his wife is stepping over a boundary.
I am not suprised fervent fundamentalist bigots would support this kind of speech, intended only to promote hate on the basis of religion, but it has to be penalised if we want civility and true religious freedom.

ohnonotgmail · 13-07-2017 10:36AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What Blair does privately is not the business of the leader of an organisation. To be pilloried for the religion of his wife is stepping over a boundary.
I am not suprised fervent fundamentalist bigots would support this kind of speech, intended only to promote hate on the basis of religion, but it has to be penalised if we want civility and true religious freedom.

Is he not allowed to criticise a public figure? You are very keen to silence opinions that you dont agree with.

munsterlegend · 13-07-2017 10:52AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Is he not allowed to criticise a public figure? You are very keen to silence opinions that you dont agree with.

You can criticise policies yes. the orange order are a bigoted organisation who believe like the kkk in some sort of supremacy on their fellow man. Of course it will in time be demolished and people will wonder how the hell it prospered for so long but thats the north for you. Still stuck in another time warp.

LordSutch · 13-07-2017 11:05AM

RTE News .......

PSNI says Twelfth parades pass off peacefully across Northern Ireland.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0712/889567-orange-order/

munsterlegend · 13-07-2017 11:11AM

LordSutch wrote: »

RTE News .......

PSNI says Twelfth parades pass off peacefully across Northern Ireland.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0712/889567-orange-order/

And your point? Are such parades making the north less sectarian? Is it an all inclusive celebration at its heart? No it's them v us. It has led to children and adults dying and unionist politicians cosying up to paramilitaries. All it does every year is raise tension with hate for your neighbour.

Let's on st Patrick day create a bonfire and burn everything British - flags, pics of queen/unionist politicians, may even thatcher. Nah that would be moronic and silly.

LordSutch · 13-07-2017 11:15AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

And your point?

No point.

Just relaying the news (now that the dust has settled).

munsterlegend · 13-07-2017 11:18AM

LordSutch wrote: »

No point.

Just relaying the news (now that the dust has settled).

Pointless then.

steddyeddy · 13-07-2017 11:20AM

LordSutch wrote: »

RTE News .......

PSNI says Twelfth parades pass off peacefully across Northern Ireland.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0712/889567-orange-order/

Yea just ignore the racism, sectarianism again LS. You previously questioned why I think your posting style is indicative of loyalism. You post in a thread where black people are referred to as monkeys by unionists, Irish flags are burnt and general hatred ensues and you post about the OO marches being peaceful.

steddyeddy · 13-07-2017 11:21AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

And your point? Are such parades making the north less sectarian? Is it an all inclusive celebration at its heart? No it's them v us. It has led to children and adults dying and unionist politicians cosying up to paramilitaries. All it does every year is raise tension with hate for your neighbour.

Let's on st Patrick day create a bonfire and burn everything British - flags, pics of queen/unionist politicians, may even thatcher. Nah that would be moronic and silly.

Previous posts has indicated the poster has no problem with any of the above. Don't bother.

LordSutch · 13-07-2017 11:22AM

My post count in this thread is 5.

It will stay that way.

You guys are ruthless & vicious.

Bye.

steddyeddy · 13-07-2017 11:24AM

seamus wrote: »

Ultimately a very heavy-handed response here is no good. Going in and carrying out widespread arrests or trying to ban bonfires altogether won't have the outcome you want.

The harder you push, the harder they'll push back. Who do you arrest and charge with hate crimes when you come upon a bonfire with an Irish flag on it? The person who put it there? The person who lights the fire?

Good luck finding someone to charge.

Basically the councils have to take control. The council defines where the bonfires go. On condition that it remains free of flags, picture, text or effigies. If anything appears on the stack, it gets pulled down and cancelled.

Go hard on unauthorised bonfires, bulldoze them as soon as they're found and shred the pallets. When the PSNI see a van or truck full of pallets going around the road, they seize and shred the load if they believe it's destined for a fire. Get the PSNI in full gear to go in and crack skulls while it's being removed, if necessary.

Within 5-10 years of this policy, the "culture" of 60 foot bonfires beside residential homes will go away because young people didn't grow up experiencing them.

This is what worked in Dublin with Halloween bonfires, as a result there are far fewer now than 20/30 years ago.

Of course, that would require political will. And the unionist parties aren't big on mending fences. They'd rather burn them.

Seamus I think you were bang on the money on when you cited money as a factor. This is third world behaviour living in a 1st world country. They're subsidised to do this year after year. Why would they change.

steddyeddy · 13-07-2017 11:25AM

LordSutch wrote: »

My post count in this thread is 3.

It will stay that way.

You guys are ruthless & vicious.

Bye.

We'll be making bonfires next.

Sofiztikated · 13-07-2017 11:41AM

I ended up working last night, in a bar, somewhere in Fermanagh.

It's been a long time since I've been around when the 12th was on, even though I used to go nearly every year. I'm familiar with all the nonsense, but haven't seen it first hand in 15/20 years.

Firstly, not a please or thank you all night. Seriously. Not from children, not from teenagers, not from young adults, not from older adults.

Lots of Red, White, and Blue. Flags, bunting (robbed from somewhere), faces painted, lighters, wallets, those flowery things you hang around your neck like at Carnivale seemed popular, bagdes, hats, if it could have a Union Jack enblazion on it, someone had it.

Went to the jacks at one point, and 2 women burst in, "Bursting for a slash," they didn't cop that a cubicle could be occupied, rather "facking thing is locked." They proceed to talk ****e about someone they were with, how his family had someone that "was married to a fenian, and a child and all," to which the other woman replied "Aw, the poor wee mite. Is the child ok? Like, normal?" They really should have been able to hear me at that point, my eyes rolled so hard.

The music was a strange one. One minute, it was Nathan Carter, then Avicii, then Ed Sheeran, then the best of the Red Hand Defenders. Music ended with God Save the Queen.

It really is an odd oul day.

munsterlegend · 13-07-2017 11:50AM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I ended up working last night, in a bar, somewhere in Fermanagh.

It's been a long time since I've been around when the 12th was on, even though I used to go nearly every year. I'm familiar with all the nonsense, but haven't seen it first hand in 15/20 years.

Firstly, not a please or thank you all night. Seriously. Not from children, not from teenagers, not from young adults, not from older adults.

Lots of Red, White, and Blue. Flags, bunting (robbed from somewhere), faces painted, lighters, wallets, those flowery things you hang around your neck like at Carnivale seemed popular, bagdes, hats, if it could have a Union Jack enblazion on it, someone had it.

Went to the jacks at one point, and 2 women burst in, "Bursting for a slash," they didn't cop that a cubicle could be occupied, rather "facking thing is locked." They proceed to talk ****e about someone they were with, how his family had someone that "was married to a fenian, and a child and all," to which the other woman replied "Aw, the poor wee mite. Is the child ok? Like, normal?" They really should have been able to hear me at that point, my eyes rolled so hard.

The music was a strange one. One minute, it was Nathan Carter, then Avicii, then Ed Sheeran, then the best of the Red Hand Defenders. Music ended with God Save the Queen.

It really is an odd oul day.

Why would they say thanks? Sure you are an inferior being and should be glad to serve them.

Surprised Arlene came out and condemned a bonfire though she did leave it until over.

OldMrBrennan83 · 13-07-2017 12:26PM

This post has been deleted.

NIMAN · 13-07-2017 12:44PM

Take Belfast out of the equation and it would pass off peacefully every year.

smeal · 13-07-2017 01:05PM

NIMAN wrote: »

Take Belfast out of the equation and it would pass off peacefully every year.

Agreed.. to a certain extent. Yes, the majority of the sectarian/racist aggressive bombfires are mostly confined to Belfast. Bar the parades and the flegs, the majority of rural NI 12th celebrations incorporate more of a family fun day approach which both communities can easily enjoy however rural Unionist hostility towards Catholics is still commonplace. Coming from a cross-border family I know that many Catholic families are happy to join in with this side of the celebrations in this day and age however many Unionists wouldn't be welcome of it which is a shame mostly because of the "Catholic Hate" that is still preached by the Unionist Orders.

What I find a lot in rural NI is that many Unionists refuse to enter Catholic churches for funerals or weddings and would condemn their Protestant children marrying into Catholic families whereas the majority of Catholic families are the complete opposite and wouldn't flicker an eyelid. A lot of this comes from the combination of the Unionist Orders and the Catholic Bashing Presbyterian churches which are funding a lot of these Orders.

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2017 01:16PM

NIMAN wrote: »

Take Belfast out of the equation and it would pass off peacefully every year.

Not really, the march nearest me always ends up being provocative as they march right up to areas that they have been told are no go. Some of the most 'respected businessmen' in the community are to the fore in this.

It only passes off peacefully because of huge efforts by the moderates who have succeeded in convincing the organisers that they have been wrong to assume they have rights to engage in suprematist displays.

13-07-2017 01:39PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I ended up working last night, in a bar, somewhere in Fermanagh.

It's been a long time since I've been around when the 12th was on, even though I used to go nearly every year. I'm familiar with all the nonsense, but haven't seen it first hand in 15/20 years.

Firstly, not a please or thank you all night. Seriously. Not from children, not from teenagers, not from young adults, not from older adults.

Lots of Red, White, and Blue. Flags, bunting (robbed from somewhere), faces painted, lighters, wallets, those flowery things you hang around your neck like at Carnivale seemed popular, bagdes, hats, if it could have a Union Jack enblazion on it, someone had it.

Went to the jacks at one point, and 2 women burst in, "Bursting for a slash," they didn't cop that a cubicle could be occupied, rather "facking thing is locked." They proceed to talk ****e about someone they were with, how his family had someone that "was married to a fenian, and a child and all," to which the other woman replied "Aw, the poor wee mite. Is the child ok? Like, normal?" They really should have been able to hear me at that point, my eyes rolled so hard.

The music was a strange one. One minute, it was Nathan Carter, then Avicii, then Ed Sheeran, then the best of the Red Hand Defenders. Music ended with God Save the Queen.

It really is an odd oul day.

That is some insight - I would love to get more views from Northern Catholics on this. Living down south I have no idea how to interact with these people.

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 01:50PM

buried wrote: »

They worship King Billy though don't they?

You see its funny, and it really is funny because of this, in King Billy's time, in the actual time the glorious King Billy existed in - if you were out at night sitting about a fire looking at it, throwing offerings on top of it, worshipping it, the likes of King Billy and his aldermen would drag your arse into the nearest gaol that night and throw you on top of his fire the very next morning as a witch. You want to worship King Billy? Go to F**king Mass and be a good protestant christian. Worshipping fire? That's the Devils work. King Billy won't like that

I don't know of anyone who worships King Billy to be honest. He is simply the figurehead of the battle of the Boyne. I would say that a large percentage of those who attend the bonfires are not religious in the slightest.

The ones that burn the republics flag should not be doing so. I've had debates in the past about the point and was told that to them the Irish tricolour represents or is symbolic of the Ira. And indeed for a long time that was what I associated it with myself having grown up watching it draped across Ira terrorists coffins etc.

Hopefully as time goes on that association will lessen and people won't see the need to put flags or other thing images on the fire.

As for King Billy being gay I've heard the rumours and am waiting for a lurid tell all story in the Sunday world.

smeal · 13-07-2017 01:53PM

6541 wrote: »

That is some insight - I would love to get more views from Northern Catholics on this. Living down south I have no idea how to interact with these people.

Louis Theroux needs to do a documentary from the Shankill Road.

citytillidie · 13-07-2017 01:59PM

Lets see how tomorrow goes, people are ok with the council spending money on their bonfires are now up in arms as the same council are creating a fanzone at a west Belfast pub for Celtic fans for tomorrows Champions League qualifier between Linfield and Celtic. They are doing this as no Celtic fans can go to the game

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 02:05PM

munsterlegend wrote: »

And your point?

Let's on st Patrick day create a bonfire and burn everything British - flags, pics of queen/unionist politicians, may even thatcher. Nah that would be moronic and silly.

Well republicans already do all of the above on their bonfires 🔥 in august. Internment celebrations I believe. You are only allowed one day each lads. Play fair.

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 02:09PM

citytillidie wrote: »

Lets see how tomorrow goes, people are ok with the council spending money on their bonfires are now up in arms as the same council are creating a fanzone at a west Belfast pub for Celtic fans for tomorrows Champions League qualifier between Linfield and Celtic. They are doing this as no Celtic fans can go to the game

Celtic made that decision btw, not linfield. Celtic fans could have easily been accommodated at Windsor and would be dealt with the same way as when Cliftonville visit or the glens for that matter. Celtic playing the drama queens as usual.

In fact didn't Derry city fc play linfield in the setanta a few years back or was that someone else?

buried · 13-07-2017 02:10PM

timthumbni wrote: »

I don't know of anyone who worships King Billy to be honest. He is simply the figurehead of the battle of the Boyne. I would say that a large percentage of those who attend the bonfires are not religious in the slightest.

Yeah probably, Just a bunch of provocative knuckledragging thicks using an event and figurehead in history that they have absolutely no clue about in order to create more confrontation, more division and fuel more hate

munsterlegend · 13-07-2017 02:16PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Well republicans already do all of the above on their bonfires ðŸ”¥ in august. Internment celebrations I believe. You are only allowed one day each lads. Play fair.

Republicanism is open to all creeds though. You could even go and march around it with a green sash. You'd be right at home

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 02:16PM

buried wrote: »

Yeah probably, Just a bunch of provocative knuckledragging thicks using an event and figurehead in history that they have absolutely no clue about in order to create more confrontation, more division and fuel more hate

It should also be noted that for the most part the bonfires are attended by younger ones from mostly working class estates.

Most people I know (and I'm a Norn Iron unionist) do not or would not attend a bonfire. This is for many reasons but the fact that a lot of them aren't lit until midnight and a lot of drunken young ones about wouldn't help.

But most would attend the 12th parades the next day. The bonfires and the 12th itself are two very different things.

timthumbni · 13-07-2017 02:18PM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Republicanism is open to all creeds though.

Hmmmm. Tell that to the kingsmill victims of brave Irish &#55356;&#57152; republicans "open to all creeds and none"

So it's the 12th of July tomorrow. Will the North ever not be sectarian?

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