So it's the 12th of July tomorrow. Will the North ever not be sectarian?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The entire Unionist community is not bigoted and anti Irish - woman - and LGBT.

No, but they are Unionist.
Unification isn't like joining the EU, it involves an actual change of country; many (most?) people intertwine their their nationality into the very core of their identity and cannot separate them.

For them, being told that their country is now Ireland and not the UK is as abhorrent as being told that they're now a girl and not a boy.

This doesn't really apply to nationalists, because NI has always been part of the UK - they're not being asked to accept a change.

It's exactly the kind of thing that has the potential to turn a reasonable unionist into an angry unionist and an extremist.

Reunification worked in Germany because the time of separation was relatively short and practically everyone in E.Germany considered themselves German rather than Soviet. Those conditions don't apply in NI, a significant part of the population, perhaps even a majority, don't consider themselves or their land to be Irish.

Any unification proposal needs to contain looong plans that satisfy as many people as possible and not just a majority.

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There is nothing to fear in the assimilation of the real Orange culture. What has to be removed is the bigoted sectarian culture. Because it does affect us all. That is if we have any empathy for fellow islanders/citizens living with it.

As I say, there has always been some who can turn a blind eye to that. A lot (and a significant amount) won't turn a blind eye.

smurgen wrote: »

our own papers are so politically biased that we have to leave it to the Guaridan to report the true nature of last night's bonfires https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/12/northern-ireland-police-investigate-hate-crimes-over-loyalist-bonfires-12-july

I'm not sure that's solely the reasoning.

On the one hand we're a bit jaded. We've always known that NI was stuck in the dark ages and that sectarian hatred, racism and bigotry is rife. So none of this is shocking.

There's also a desire to not stir the pot. Anti-loyalist (or pro-Nationalist) reporting in the South has the potential to incite anger and violence. So media have for a long time done their best to tread the line rather than be accused of bias or incitement. Rightly or wrongly, it makes sense.

Neither apply to the UK media. The DUP is only now relevant on the mainland because they're part of the Government and so the media is shining a spotlight on what the DUP and their supporters engage in. And for most of the UK it's shocking.

And with no republican violence taking place, or even threatening, they have nothing to lose by being harsh and critical of loyalists.

seamus wrote: »

smurgen wrote: »

our own papers are so politically biased that we have to leave it to the Guaridan to report the true nature of last night's bonfires https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/12/northern-ireland-police-investigate-hate-crimes-over-loyalist-bonfires-12-july

I'm not sure that's solely the reasoning.

On the one hand we're a bit jaded. We've always known that NI was stuck in the dark ages and that sectarian hatred, racism and bigotry is rife. So none of this is shocking.

There's also a desire to not stir the pot. Anti-loyalist (or pro-Nationalist) reporting in the South has the potential to incite anger and violence. So media have for a long time done their best to tread the line rather than be accused of bias or incitement. Rightly or wrongly, it makes sense.

Neither apply to the UK media. The DUP is only now relevant on the mainland because they're part of the Government and so the media is shining a spotlight on what the DUP and their supporters engage in. And for most of the UK it's shocking.

And with no republican violence taking place, or even threatening, they have nothing to lose by being harsh and critical of loyalists.

Could they not just report the facts and leave people down the south make up their own minds? If Sinn Fein were linked to open displays of biggotry like this it would be all over the independent.

Bambi wrote: »

I do enjoy your willingness to lecture others on things you don't have a clue about

In the event of a United Ireland the PUL types will remain British citizens as will their descendants if they choose.

And the Sinn Fein "types" are Irish citizens now and their descendents if they choose. So why do they want a United Ireland at all?

Have a think about that and you might realise why unionists wouldn't want a UI, regardless of what citizenship they get to keep.

Recently as a Southerner on holidays in a resort in Spain the following occurred. I was in a late bar ordering drinks standing next to some Northern people, people would have had a lot of beer on board at this stage. Anyway I ordered my drink, then this northern bird turns to me and asks me what part of Ireland I am from. I respond, she goes mental, tell me she is sick of ye Irish Fenian's etc. This abuse lasted a good 2 minutes. I am very spatially aware when it comes to violence, out of the corner of my eye I see big blokes in her company aligning themselves for a cheap knockout punch. I about turn and leave the bar ASAP.

I have never experienced such hate, never. It was totally down to me being Irish.
I am not used to dealing with filth like that and I also wonder if a few Northern Nationalist who are used to dealing with bigots were in the bar would it have worked out differently.

Rick Shaw wrote: »

They could still be British in a UI.

There is nothing in the GFA that insists someone denounces or gives up their citizenship.

See my post above. Republicans are Irish in the UK. So why do they want a UI? The same reason why unionists wouldn't accept being British in a UI.

6541 wrote: »

Recently as a Southerner on holidays in a resort in Spain the following occurred. I was in a late bar ordering drinks standing next to some Northern people, people would have had a lot of beer on board at this stage. Anyway I ordered my drink, then this northern bird turns to me and asks me what part of Ireland I am from. I respond, she goes mental, tell me she is sick of ye Irish Fenian's etc. This abuse lasted a good 2 minutes. I am very spatially aware when it comes to violence, out of the corner of my eye I see big blokes in her company aligning themselves for a cheap knockout punch. I about turn and leave the bar ASAP.

I have never experienced such hate, never. It was totally down to me being Irish.
I am not used to dealing with filth like that and I also wonder if a few Northern Nationalist who are used to dealing with bigots were in the bar would it have worked out differently.

Wondering did you refer to her directly as a northern bird? Yes there are yobs like this on both sides and if there had of been similar nationalist yobs it might have turned out differently, like a mini riot with you as a tennis ball in the middle.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

False equivalence. Nationalists haven't created a summer-long celebrated culture around being anti-Protestant/Unionist/British.

The north needs to be better regulated and policed. A simple law requiring planning permission for flags to placed on public property, or kerbstone painting, would push outward expressions of sectarianism, paramilitarism, territory marking, into controlled ghettos where it could be ignored by the wider population.


There should also be a concerted move toward secular schools with a neutral curriculum.

Failing that just get the +50% vote for unification and pull the plaster off quickly.

How are you going to get your 50%+1 vote though? They hold opinion polls up there on the subject now and again and the number in favour of unification tends to be in the mid 30%s. Which would suggest a fair number of the supposedly nationalist community aren't!

Syphonax wrote: »

Wondering did you refer to her directly as a northern bird? Yes there are yobs like this on both sides and if there had of been similar nationalist yobs it might have turned out differently, like a mini riot with you as a tennis ball in the middle.

No I just said hello to her, also earlier in another bar I was talking to some women who identified as east Belfast women, they had never met anyone from the south ! We haven't a hope of unity or friendship with these people. They are 50 years behind us.