Would you accept your child if they became religious?

smacl · 10-07-2017 01:24PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I'd be concerned to be quite honest. I think it's a very unusual thing to happen, for non religious people to suddenly turn to religion - as far as I can see it usually happens in a crisis of some sort. Clutching at straws kind of thing.

Could be as simple as a combination of gullibility, boredom and loneliness. I remember as a young lad of 18 being approached by a very attractive girl a few years older than me wanting to talk about sun myung moon. Fine young thing like that wanting to talk to me (a spotty nerd without a girlfriend) I was well chuffed and didn't give a damn about the subject matter. Went to a few meetings and came to the conclusion they were nutters so left it at that, but I could easily see someone at a loose end getting taken in. While I haven't come across anyone finding God in later life, I've met plenty getting involved in other specious nonsense such as reiki, homeopathy and even faith healing. Not always for the worse either, with one ex school friend giving up a job in the tax office she hated to become a reiki instructor. Sure, its nonsense, but so what if she's much happier as a result. Where I've a problem is when it becomes abusive, as in Scientology in general, or the state funded discrimination carried out by the RCC.

sbsquarepants · 10-07-2017 04:50PM

smacl wrote: »

Fine young thing like that wanting to talk to me (a spotty nerd without a girlfriend) .

The things we do for lust:D

Ben Gadot · 10-07-2017 06:04PM

As long as I had no cause for concern of course I would accept it. Only a fcukwit would hold it against them to be honest.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-07-2017 06:45PM

In Ireland, the people who go around saying they 'will let them make up their own minds when they are older' are the ones putting their kids through communion etc. :rolleyes:

Kidchameleon · 10-07-2017 11:36PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I would feel I'd failed as a parent in some way.

Dont be so hard on yourself, you would have raised a child to stand by their own convictions

robindch · 10-07-2017 11:41PM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Dont be so hard on yourself, you would have raised a child to stand by their own convictions

Their own convictions?

The whole point of religion is that the believer acquires somebody else's convictions - surely you've noticed that?

DaniilKharms · 10-07-2017 11:43PM

Who here claims to be rational and yet would demand people believe what they do??

Worse yet, who would turn their back on their own children??

Ugh.

meeeeh · 10-07-2017 11:46PM

DaniilKharms wrote: »

Who here claims to be rational and yet would demand people believe what they do??

Worse yet, who would turn their back on their own children??

Ugh.

That would be a definition of fanatic l guess.

smacl · 11-07-2017 08:05AM

DaniilKharms wrote: »

Who here claims to be rational and yet would demand people believe what they do??

Worse yet, who would turn their back on their own children??

Ugh.

Sad how strongly held beliefs can interfere with basic compassion. I had a number of religious relatives not attend my fathers funeral because it was entirely non-religious. My experience is attitudes such as these are most common among strongly religious people though not exclusively so.

robindch · 11-07-2017 11:22AM

smacl wrote: »

I had a number of religious relatives not attend my fathers funeral because it was entirely non-religious. My experience is attitudes such as these are most common among strongly religious people though not exclusively so.

Same here. In my extended family, Popette has refused to attend almost every funeral to which she might otherwise have gone, as she believed that they were insufficiently catholic. She also attended one wedding last year, but in the middle of it, announced that most of the younger generation were "fornicating heretics" which didn't go down especially well with anybody really. She's also announced that she won't attend any more family weddings as they're blasphemous and has taken a particular relish in pointing out to her long-suffering children that this means she won't be attending the marriages of any of her children either.

The non-religious side of the family, which is basically everybody these days save Popette herself, everybody just rolls up and goes along with whatever religious ceremonial stuff is required from time to time for whatever marriages + funerals might be taking place. Heavens, I even persuaded myself to say a "prayer of the faithful" at a recent family funeral which had more than a few eyes rolling

NIMAN · 11-07-2017 11:30AM

Op,

You'd be hard nosed to disown your children for becoming religious.

Of course I'd accept it. They are grown up, they can make their own mind up.

Kinda sounds a little like saying, 'would you accept your child if they came out as gay'.

DaniilKharms · 11-07-2017 11:38AM

smacl wrote: »

Sad how strongly held beliefs can interfere with basic compassion. I had a number of religious relatives not attend my fathers funeral because it was entirely non-religious. My experience is attitudes such as these are most common among strongly religious people though not exclusively so.

And that's the point right?

If you're a decent human being then it doesn't matter what your personal beliefs are to a large degree.

I don't want my kids to be religious, but as long as they're good humans I won't judge them on their faith.

A much better approach would be to be a atheist and a role model. Let the kids see that faith doesn't make you good or bad, happy or sad, rich or poor.

seamus · 11-07-2017 11:41AM

robindch wrote: »

Heavens, I even persuaded myself to say a "prayer of the faithful" at a recent family funeral which had more than a few eyes rolling

So both of my kids have been baptised and I've had a church wedding

Big woop, wanna fight about it?

Every time we've basically written the POTF ourselves. And always been very specific about who says what (such as a grandparent saying one about the kids, friends saying one about friends), and especially where someone is atheist about ensuring that it's not a religious platitude.
That is, we want the people saying it to at least be able to identify with it and not just be reciting something mindless.

However, the priest usually will give you examples of prayers, and we've noticed in the last decade that the proscribed POTF have taken on a much more bible-bashing tone.

So where in the past the example prayer might be,

"We pray for all the people suffering due to war, that nations may learn to put their differences aside and hear the word of God"

we would change that to;

"We pray for all the people suffering due to war, that nations may learn to put their differences aside and learn to live in peace and understanding"

Whereas recently the "example" prayer would be

"We pray that the peoples of the world will come together under the light of the Lord and learn to live in harmony under His guidance in anticipation of His Divine coming".

Seems really interesting that as the world in general trends towards secularism and fuzzy religiosity, the RCC has doubled-down and gone more orthodox.

11-07-2017 11:46AM

I've noticed that alright in the last couple of years compared to 10-12 years ago (and even when I was in school before that) that they're laying the God stuff on a bit thicker recently.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-07-2017 11:59AM

robindch wrote: »

Same here. In my extended family, Popette has refused to attend almost every funeral to which she might otherwise have gone, as she believed that they were insufficiently catholic.

You say insufficiently, as opposed to non, catholic.
So are these RC funerals but she objects to the 'liberal' priest or whatever?

Also, complaints about laying on the god stuff a bit thick in church did raise a chuckle

Apparently it's Vatican II which is responsible for the drift away from the RCC (the same as all other mainstream churches in the western world are experiencing...) and what's needed is a good oul' dose of old-fashioned RC orthodoxy. At least that's what the Barely Alive! readers think...

DaniilKharms · 11-07-2017 12:13PM

seamus wrote: »

So both of my kids have been baptised and I've had a church wedding

Big woop, wanna fight about it?

Every time we've basically written the POTF ourselves. And always been very specific about who says what (such as a grandparent saying one about the kids, friends saying one about friends), and especially where someone is atheist about ensuring that it's not a religious platitude.
That is, we want the people saying it to at least be able to identify with it and not just be reciting something mindless.

However, the priest usually will give you examples of prayers, and we've noticed in the last decade that the proscribed POTF have taken on a much more bible-bashing tone.

So where in the past the example prayer might be,

"We pray for all the people suffering due to war, that nations may learn to put their differences aside and hear the word of God"

we would change that to;

"We pray for all the people suffering due to war, that nations may learn to put their differences aside and learn to live in peace and understanding"

Whereas recently the "example" prayer would be

"We pray that the peoples of the world will come together under the light of the Lord and learn to live in harmony under His guidance in anticipation of His Divine coming".

Seems really interesting that as the world in general trends towards secularism and fuzzy religiosity, the RCC has doubled-down and gone more orthodox.

I was recently at a first communion and was AGAIN surprised (you'd think I'd learn) that the priest was happy to just casually tell everyone that miracles were simply fiction used to explain faith, etc.

I just kinda scratch my head, because what's the point of the bible if it's just BS except for a couple of the most crazy bits which may at some future point be redefined by your local priest as allegory, etc.

Still, as meaningless as that seems, it's better than the extreme alternatives out there.

smacl · 12-07-2017 08:05AM

DaniilKharms wrote: »

I was recently at a first communion and was AGAIN surprised (you'd think I'd learn) that the priest was happy to just casually tell everyone that miracles were simply fiction used to explain faith, etc.

I just kinda scratch my head, because what's the point of the bible if it's just BS except for a couple of the most crazy bits which may at some future point be redefined by your local priest as allegory, etc.

Got to keep the punters happy I guess, and with church attendance in continuing decline that means making all sorts of compromises, whether it be admitting miracles are fiction or coming up with gluten free Jesus crackers. Their gig, their rules, as far as I'm concerned.

Kidchameleon · 12-07-2017 08:18AM

robindch wrote: »

Their own convictions?

The whole point of religion is that the believer acquires somebody else's convictions - surely you've noticed that?

Thats a very common attitude you have there rob. I suppose you think a suicide bomber is innocent because they are following the convictions of their imam?

....... · 12-07-2017 08:33AM

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robindch · 12-07-2017 09:04AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I've noticed that alright in the last couple of years compared to 10-12 years ago (and even when I was in school before that) that they're laying the God stuff on a bit thicker recently.

Some of that less-touchy-feely and more pushy-shovey stuff was Ratzinger's doing.

That and the more basic fact that most moderate people have already abandoned the church, leaving control of the religious airwaves to the more and more religious - helping drive away the decreasing number of people who are fairly relaxed about the whole thing.

robindch · 12-07-2017 09:16AM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

robindch wrote:

The whole point of religion is that the believer acquires somebody else's convictions - surely you've noticed that?

Thats a very common attitude you have there rob. I suppose you think a suicide bomber is innocent because they are following the convictions of their imam?

Well, that escalated quickly :rolleyes:

To answer your poorly-aimed rhetorical question - the majority of suicide bombers are (males) in the age-range 18-24, so I'd tend to hold the bombers themselves primarily responsible for their suicidal stupidity. For any suicide-bombers younger than 18, I'd hold their religious teachers primarily responsible.

Though in both cases, I hold that the bombers' general social context - schools, families, friends, society generally - also partially responsible for creating the conditions in which can fester the idiotic notion that personal religious beliefs are more important than other people. In this foolishness, of course, catholicism is not really all that different from fundamentalist islam.

smacl · 12-07-2017 09:18AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Which if you think about it is most people at some time or other in their life.

What if your kid wanted to convert to Islam, become a Quaker, a Hare Krishna, or a member of the Church of Scientology? I presume these would be less palatable to most. The devil you know eh?

Islam would be a concern, more so if it was a girl, and I'd do what I could to dissuade them. I've no problem with Quakers, and while not into religion myself wouldn't see them as a bad option for someone wanting to explore it. The hares always struck me as nice enough people but a bit of an extreme move to join them, so I'd seek to dissuade and read up on what was involved, again doubly so for a girl. Scientology would be a major no, and I'd start by watching a couple of documentaries on them with the child and getting them to read 'Blown for good' and a few other title to show exactly what this particularly nasty cult does to its followers.

Worth remembering all religious groups are not the same, and if one of my kids was interested in joining such a group, I'd tend to put the mythology aspect to on side and look at what other impacts the group would have. For example, IMHO, even moderate Islam is misogynistic and homophobic by our standards, comparable to Catholicism in Ireland from a few decades ago. Hare Krishna adherents will often leave home and break family ties which I'd object strongly to. The list of what's wrong with Scientology is so long I'm not even going to start. The other various happy clappy Christian groups I'd have to look at on an individual basis as needed. When my eldest took up Buddhism at 14, I let her at it, and while she still has no issue with it she found out it wasn't for her quickly enough. I think this will be the case for most kids raised atheist for most religions.

Sebastian Dangerfield · 12-07-2017 09:18AM

My wife believes in the Irish way (says she's a catholic, doesnt go to mass), I dont. She christened our baby and I didnt go. Plan is that when the baby is old enough to ask, we'll tell her people believe in different things and help her to make up her own mind.

Easier said that done and Im sure there'll be a few arguments, but if she falls on the mothers side I'll just deal with it.

GarIT · 12-07-2017 09:32AM

I'd have some difficulty with it. It would be difficult for me to allow a Catholic into my home after what they have done. For other religions, I'd judge it on a case by case basis.

As another poster said I would try to help them through their mental illness and get past this issue. I don't think it would disown them but I would be ashamed both of them and my parenting skills.

DaniilKharms · 12-07-2017 11:22AM

smacl wrote: »

Got to keep the punters happy I guess, and with church attendance in continuing decline that means making all sorts of compromises, whether it be admitting miracles are fiction or coming up with gluten free Jesus crackers. Their gig, their rules, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh it's their gig alright... I just couldn't really believe people were cool with some rando casually rewriting the bible, to... what?...make it all more palatable?

And btw., Jesus is some sort of magical alien overlord, which you have to believe, but walking on water? That's just allegory.

Kidchameleon · 12-07-2017 12:46PM

robindch wrote: »

Well, that escalated quickly :rolleyes:

To answer your poorly-aimed rhetorical question - the majority of suicide bombers are (males) in the age-range 18-24, so I'd tend to hold the bombers themselves primarily responsible for their suicidal stupidity. For any suicide-bombers younger than 18, I'd hold their religious teachers primarily responsible.
.

So we agree.

smacl · 12-07-2017 01:58PM

DaniilKharms wrote: »

Oh it's their gig alright... I just couldn't really believe people were cool with some rando casually rewriting the bible, to... what?...make it all more palatable?

And btw., Jesus is some sort of magical alien overlord, which you have to believe, but walking on water? That's just allegory.

They lost me as a potential believer with the notion of God. On those rare occasions where I have to go to a Church do I just smile politely and wait it out. I don't go to communions or christenings. Currently reading a bit of early Christian history and the bible was assembled from the writings by a bunch of randos to start with far more 'false' gospels rejected than 'accurate' ones included. Local pp wants to add his 2c, let him at it, its not going to make it any more or less true from where I'm sitting in the cheap seats. Its all fan fiction really

DaniilKharms · 12-07-2017 02:36PM

smacl wrote: »

They lost me as a potential believer with the notion of God. On those rare occasions where I have to go to a Church do I just smile politely and wait it out. I don't go to communions or christenings. Currently reading a bit of early Christian history and the bible was assembled from the writings by a bunch of randos to start with far more 'false' gospels rejected than 'accurate' ones included. Local pp wants to add his 2c, let him at it, its not going to make it any more or less true from where I'm sitting in the cheap seats. Its all fan fiction really

We agree... I just... you know... I can't really understand adults believing this stuff (though I understand them participating for the value they feel they get from the community, etc.) but if the main book you're basing your beliefs on is just kinda randomly true, well... It just seems like a level of randomness even beyond normal religious randomness.

In other words, if you go to a protestant church, for example, and the pastor says, "god walked on water" everyone believes that... seems like in the RCC these days if the pp said that the congregation would maybe half believe it, and half think it's just a pleasant allegory for faith... so to me - and I know I'm not the target audience, but - to me that's just like... why are we all associating with each other if we can't even agree on what to believe? Why not sit at home and believe what you want re: religion, but then do some other community volunteering or something for the social aspect?

Of course I realise trying to rationalise beliefs, human behaviour is a non-starter... this is just how I see this...

Samaris · 14-07-2017 08:37AM

It wouldn't particularly bother me if one of my children went religious. I was pretty religious myself as a kid and eventually found too many holes with it and also too much abuse of the religion for the sake of control to want anything to do with it. If there is a God who lets His Church get into the appalling state it is in, I don't think He can say too much about people refusing anything to do with it.

If there were people trying to force them to believe (a teacher for instance), I'd have something to say about it alright, but if they're old enough to make their own choices and want to explore religion and the moral/ethics of life (not that that cannot be explored from outside it, but it is an obvious place to investigate for views on morality) then fine. If they accept it uncritically and find it works for them, well, I won't particularly understand it, but I'll live and let live, unless I have reason to believe it will be harmful to them - scientology is not a religion, it's a cult that was set up to be a cult and with no redeeming features whatsoever. It does not teach how to live one's life well, it teaches only how to give money to the cult.

Everyone has to make their own path. Can be a guide and raise signposts and all, but they've got to do the walking. I might prefer that they're not tripping over a burka or a nun's habit while trying to walk that path, but again, they have to decide how to do it themselves.

hinault · 27-07-2017 09:43AM

snowflaker wrote: »

Give them science, teach them critical judgement, they'll grow out of that nonsense

:D

Would you accept your child if they became religious?

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