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Would you accept your child if they became religious?

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    #62
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    In Ireland, the people who go around saying they 'will let them make up their own minds when they are older' are the ones putting their kids through communion etc. :rolleyes:

    Traitors, no doubt.:p


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    #63
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Glad you noticed.

    You weren't asked.


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    #64
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,214 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    hinault wrote: »
    You weren't asked.

    Mod: I am not sure what this is supposed to mean, but it doesn't contribute to the conversation and seems entirely irrelevant. Less of the smart digs please.


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    #65
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,858 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    This thread must look pretty sparse to him, considering all the people he's put on ignore.


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    #66
    Esho
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Esho


    I think that any attraction to religion would feed some need that is in my child.
    If the need is to completely obliterate any sense of self and free-choice (ie scientology), I would have to have a long and hard look at myself how I brought up my children.

    I saw one poster whose uncle was a committed Communist, whose niece became a committed Catholic - both are probably equally dogmatic, so no difference in that respect - she was following on the family tradition, completely logical on one level!

    If my children chose a religion which enhances their life and their ability and capacity to live, while celebrating individual freedom, I'd be proud of whatever it is I'd taught them.


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    #67
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Esho wrote: »
    I think that any attraction to religion would feed some need that is in my child.
    If the need is to completely obliterate any sense of self and free-choice (ie scientology), I would have to have a long and hard look at myself how I brought up my children.

    I saw one poster whose uncle was a committed Communist, whose niece became a committed Catholic - both are probably equally dogmatic, so no difference in that respect - she was following on the family tradition, completely logical on one level!

    If my children chose a religion which enhances their life and their ability and capacity to live, while celebrating individual freedom, I'd be proud of whatever it is I'd taught them.

    Which family tradition? The Communist tradition or the Catholic tradition - how strong can a tradition be where there is a family containing a Communist and a Catholic:P

    God doesn't benefit one iota from the belief of people/person.
    God cannot be added to, or diminished from, by one's belief or lack thereof.

    The primary beneficiary of belief is the soul who believes in God and tries as best they can to adhere to God's commands.


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    #68
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #69
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Each soul is real.


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    #70
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #71
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    hinault wrote: »
    God doesn't benefit one iota from the belief of people/person.
    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    hinault wrote: »
    Each soul is real.

    The user was clearly asking about "god" hinault and you have simply non-sequitured over to "souls" to dodge the question that was actually asked of you.

    The thread is not about gods or souls, it is about atheists accepting a child who becomes religious. Now if the existence of "souls" could be substantiated in any way, I am sure it would affect the opinion of many atheists on themselves AND others being religious, but alas no such evidence has been forthcoming from any source, least of all yourself.

    In fact I have not even heard a coherent definition of "soul" let alone substantiation that it exists. I recall a debate between Dan Barker and the unfortunately named Kyle Butt in which Barker asked Butt to define "soul".

    Butt pulled a long answer out of himself, which Barker rightly pointed out at the end was a long list of things the soul ISN'T rather than what the soul IS. So even this Butt could not effuse a definition of "soul" he could merely list things the soul is NOT.

    For many when I talk to them "soul" appear to be nothing more than a 1:1 label swap with "sentience" or "consciousness" or some other concept we already have words for. And I would certainly think any child confused and duped into religious lines of thinking (again, what the thread is actually about) by people term hopping between words that essentially mean the same thing....... would benefit more from intellectual discourse than mere "acceptance".


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    #72
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    No.
    The reality pertains, whether one chooses to believe that reality or not.

    The benefit of the belief in God accrues only to the soul who believes.

    Therefore one must question how anyone claiming to be a parent would attempt to deny a benefit to their child or children.


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    #73
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,214 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    hinault wrote: »
    No.
    The reality pertains, whether one chooses to believe that reality or not.

    The benefit of the belief in God accrues only to the soul who believes.

    Therefore one must question how anyone claiming to be a parent would attempt to deny a benefit to their child or children.

    No.

    You believe that 'The reality....children'. The fact that you believe this does not make it so.


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    #74
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,915 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    I love my son with all my heart but if he turned to religion I'd probably have to honour kill him with meatballs to satisfy the demands of the great spaghetti monster in the sky. Or at least cut him off so completely that I could pretend that I had.

    Nope wait, that's how some fundamentalist religious people react to their children having different views on religion, never heard of an atheist/agnostic being so fervent. In reality I'd probably be scratching my head at his abandoning the common sense he displays so easily now at 4. Hoping it was a teenage experimentation phase and desperately hoping that it wasn't something he felt a need for because I had brought him up in a way that failed him and left him needing love from a fantasy figure in order to feel whole and happy in life. But I wouldn't love him any less, cast him out or consciously do anything to ever make him feel like he couldn't come to me with anything.


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    #75
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    looksee wrote: »
    No.

    You believe that 'The reality....children'. The fact that you believe this does not make it so.

    The reality is that God exists completely independent of my belief.

    You almost got it right though that time. Well done.

    Progress of sorts :P


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    #76
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #77
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    hinault wrote: »
    The reality is that God exists completely independent of my belief.
    You believe that God exists independently of your belief.

    Beliefception.

    We can prove that gravity exists independently of whether we believe in it or not.

    Or that the Sun exists whether we believe in it or not.

    You cannot prove that God exists, no matter how hard you try.


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    #78
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    You'd continue to not believe the proof regardless.


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    #79
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    seamus wrote: »
    You believe that God exists independently of your belief.

    Beliefception.

    We can prove that gravity exists independently of whether we believe in it or not.

    Or that the Sun exists whether we believe in it or not.

    You cannot prove that God exists, no matter how hard you try.

    I've no doubt that that there are those too who believe that the Sun and gravity do not exist.


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    #80
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,214 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    hinault wrote: »
    You'd continue to not believe the proof regardless.

    Oh that's a cop out! You just told me I nearly got it right, so maybe you could just expand on that? If you are just going to do the 'well you wouldn't believe it anyway' there is not much point continuing. Come on, we are so close to the final answer...


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    #81
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    looksee wrote: »
    Oh that's a cop out! You just told me I nearly got it right,

    Well you were still wrong, while bring almost right.

    I gave you credit for improving.


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    #82
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #83
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I'm guessing it's the kind of proof that's only proof if you already believe and that if you don't believe it looks like it's not proof at all.


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    #84
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #85
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    hinault wrote: »
    No. The reality pertains, whether one chooses to believe that reality or not.

    And unsubstantiated assertion remains unsubstantiated assertion whether one chooses to believe the assertion or not. Yours is exactly that: Unsubstantiated assertion.
    hinault wrote: »
    The benefit of the belief in God accrues only to the soul who believes.

    You were not asked about the benefit of belief in god, you were asked what benefit a god gets from our belief. You are (willfully) answering an entirely different question to the one you were actually asked.

    I am not convinced in the benefit of god belief though. To cite one of a host of interesting studies..... they looked at people in medical recovery who were prayed for but did not know it, prayed for and knew it, were not being prayed for and thought they were, were not being prayed for and knew it............. and the two groups that fared the worst were the ones that thought they were being prayed for.

    Another example is that when suffering grief in the face of death we in the psychology and psychiatry community have come to recognize that dealing with it sooner is much better than later. A belief in a god and the after life however can delay, often for a long time, dealing with it by feeding people the unsubstantiated nonsense that their loved one is not actually dead.

    The benefits of god belief can also be questioned in many cases such as when parents sit back and watch their own children die painfully of otherwise easily mediated medical conditions solely due to what they believe about god and the universe.

    The list goes on but suffice to say I do not see many benefits of god belief (which, I repeat, you were not actually asked about in the first place) and many detriments to it.
    hinault wrote: »
    Therefore one must question how anyone claiming to be a parent would attempt to deny a benefit to their child or children.

    Then start by questioning your own unsubstantiated assumptions first and if you establish them as fact we can move on to the more on-topic and relevant question you ask here. You are ASSUMING and ASSERTING the "benefit" and then asking us to justify it's denial. A reversal of what should be the correct approach to the subject.
    hinault wrote: »
    The reality is that God exists completely independent of my belief.

    The reality is that your sentence here is an unsubstantiated assertion that you have never, when asked, backed up in even the smallest way.

    Whether a god or anything else, have you ANY arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to offer than substantiates the claim that there are any intentional conscious and sentient agents anywhere other than human beings and earth based mammalian life?

    Anything?

    At all?
    hinault wrote: »
    You'd continue to not believe the proof regardless.

    Until you make the attempt, the above sentence is merely your narrative based assumption used to cop-out of actually making said attempt. Which, I suspect, you know as well as I do.

    We are however well used to the theistic "I would evidence my claim but....." approach to dodge around here. You are FAR from the first to employ it.

    But I do urge you to try a similar approach when applying for a mortgage and refusing to provide any details on your assets or earning potential however. Just please ensure I am there to watch when you do :)


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    #86
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    You wouldn't believe.

    Nor would you be the first not to believe even after being presented with, what you call, indisputable proof.

    People who witnessed proof firsthand continued to refuse to believe too.

    What I am trying to get to here is why would a parent attempt to deny a benefit to their children?

    You have a child/children?


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    #87
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    hinault wrote: »
    What I am trying to get to here is why would a parent attempt to deny a benefit to their children?

    You have a child/children?

    Two myself. The problem is that until someone establishes that it IS a benefit, the narrative of "you are denying them the benefit" is merely white noise to me.

    Alas that step is the one you are openly refusing to take. But soap boxing an assertion into a thread and demanding everyone move forward in the discussion by taking your assertion as true on first principles..... generally does not work on this area of the website.


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    #88
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,732 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Anything?

    I reckon the only way you'll ever win that game of pigeon chess is with a shotgun :pac:


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    #89
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    hinault wrote: »
    You wouldn't believe.

    Nor would you be the first not to believe even after being presented with, what you call, indisputable proof.

    People who witnessed proof firsthand continued to refuse to believe too.

    What I am trying to get to here is why would a parent attempt to deny a benefit to their children?

    You have a child/children?
    Why would you deny your children the benefit of Scientology or Hinduism or Buddhism (Or whatever flavour of religion completely different from and incompatible with yours)?
    Why don't you believe the indisputable proof these religions offer?


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    #90
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    smacl wrote: »
    I reckon the only way you'll ever win that game of pigeon chess is with a shotgun :pac:

    Atheism via the barrel of a gun didn't work earlier, smacl.

    Maybe you can answer? Why would a parent attempt to deny a benefit to their child/children?

    Are you a parent?


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    #91
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    King Mob wrote: »
    Why would you deny your children the benefit of Scientology or Hinduism or Buddhism (Or whatever flavour of religion completely different from and incompatible with yours)?
    Why don't you believe the indisputable proof these religions offer?

    Nice try.

    I don't know what any of those belief systems hold.

    However the OP specifically mentions Christian/Catholic beliefs/practices, and with holding of accepting their children's adherence to those beliefs.


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