SF and Westminster

astrofool · 05-07-2017 12:43PM

The Unionists have lost the mind space, they are now veering wildly away from their motherland (Britain) in such a way that they won't be able to call themselves unionists anymore, there is opportunity there for SF to just let them fall on this sword while getting on with the business of running the country.

SF however are just doing the same thing in chasing after items that mean little to running the country, the Irish Language, while great, does not garner much votes down South, why are they making it an issue up North where they know it will be a lightning rod for the unionists to get behind, they're doing it for petty politics and one-upmanship, which will ultimately see them in the same position as the unionists, clinging to memories of a twee De Valera Ireland that no longer exists.

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2017 12:49PM

astrofool wrote: »

The Unionists have lost the mind space, they are now veering wildly away from their motherland (Britain) in such a way that they won't be able to call themselves unionists anymore, there is opportunity there for SF to just let them fall on this sword while getting on with the business of running the country.

SF however are just doing the same thing in chasing after items that mean little to running the country, the Irish Language, while great, does not garner much votes down South, why are they making it an issue up North where they know it will be a lightning rod for the unionists to get behind, they're doing it for petty politics and one-upmanship, which will ultimately see them in the same position as the unionists, clinging to memories of a twee De Valera Ireland that no longer exists.

It is quite simple to me, and I don't know what SF's thinking is on this.
IMO the majority of nationalists (as evidenced by their recent voting patterns)see this as a crossroads regarding rights and full parity of esteem that the GFA should have (if the two governments were properly adhering to it) delivered a long time ago.
Just happens to be the Irish language issue, but next will come all the rights based issues outstanding and which will bring northern Ireland into line with everywhere else on these islands - normality, in other words.

blanch152 · 05-07-2017 01:41PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is quite simple to me, and I don't know what SF's thinking is on this.
IMO the majority of nationalists (as evidenced by their recent voting patterns)see this as a crossroads regarding rights and full parity of esteem that the GFA should have (if the two governments were properly adhering to it) delivered a long time ago.
Just happens to be the Irish language issue, but next will come all the rights based issues outstanding and which will bring northern Ireland into line with everywhere else on these islands - normality, in other words.

I don't think the majority of nationalists have the same attachment to the issues that you proclaim. It is a bit like the nationalists down South who theoretically want a united Ireland but don't want to pay a tax for it. How do you think it would go down if there was a Northern Ireland-only tax to pay for an Irish Languages Act?

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2017 01:51PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't think the majority of nationalists have the same attachment to the issues that you proclaim. It is a bit like the nationalists down South who theoretically want a united Ireland but don't want to pay a tax for it. How do you think it would go down if there was a Northern Ireland-only tax to pay for an Irish Languages Act?

We don't know what nationalists down south want regarding a UI, because they have not firstly had the opportunity to hear a proper debate on it and have not been asked in a referendum.
The people of northern Ireland pay their taxes just like every other region and have the expectation that their rights should be available, just like they are in every other region.

We can say that the majority of nationalists in northern Ireland support the policies of SF though as two recent elections have shown.
One of those policies is to ensure that the GFA delivers parity of esteem, which benefits everyone from unionists, to nationalists and which should deliver the same rights as everyone else in the UK and Ireland.
I wonder if it was SF that was denying LGBT rights, and language rights to a minority community what the reaction would be here. I can guess.

For Reals · 05-07-2017 01:55PM

astrofool wrote: »

The Unionists have lost the mind space, they are now veering wildly away from their motherland (Britain) in such a way that they won't be able to call themselves unionists anymore, there is opportunity there for SF to just let them fall on this sword while getting on with the business of running the country.

SF however are just doing the same thing in chasing after items that mean little to running the country, the Irish Language, while great, does not garner much votes down South, why are they making it an issue up North where they know it will be a lightning rod for the unionists to get behind, they're doing it for petty politics and one-upmanship, which will ultimately see them in the same position as the unionists, clinging to memories of a twee De Valera Ireland that no longer exists.

So what of the DUP's requests regarding Ulster Scots? Indeed, if you want to go the route of clinging to memories that no longer exist, the 12th is just around the corner; you'll see Irish natives, wearing orange to show a cultural link to a long dead Dutch King while waving the flag of the British. Commemorating a battle in 1690 because the English King at the time lost. A little more about clinging to memories than a native people wishing to retain language rights and open the doors for equal status for gay couples.

Junkyard Tom · 05-07-2017 03:41PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

By categorising unionists as a seperate group to "Irish" are you implicitly validatng their belief that they're not Irish?

I was being explicit about it. Who am I to tell the 40% of people in the north who describe themselves as 'British only' that they're Irish?

blanch152 · 05-07-2017 04:47PM

For Reals wrote: »

So what of the DUP's requests regarding Ulster Scots? Indeed, if you want to go the route of clinging to memories that no longer exist, the 12th is just around the corner; you'll see Irish natives, wearing orange to show a cultural link to a long dead Dutch King while waving the flag of the British. Commemorating a battle in 1690 because the English King at the time lost. A little more about clinging to memories than a native people wishing to retain language rights and open the doors for equal status for gay couples.

A native people wishing to retain language rights?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language_in_Northern_Ireland

"he last speakers of varieties of Irish native to what is now Northern Ireland died in the 20th century. Irish as spoken in Counties Down[8] and Fermanagh were the first to die out, but native speakers of varieties spoken in the Glens of Antrim[9] and the Sperrin Mountains of County Tyrone[10] and County Londonderry survived into the 1950s and 1970s respectively, whilst the Armagh dialect survived until the 1930s or '40s.[11] Varieties of Irish indigenous to the territory of Northern Ireland finally became extinct as spoken languages when the last native speaker of Rathlin Irish died in 1985.[12] Séamus Bhriain Mac Amhlaigh, who died in 1983, was reportedly the last native-speaker of Antrim Irish."

There are no native varieties of Irish left in Northern Ireland. Most speak the Donegal dialect.

The Golden Miller · 05-07-2017 05:15PM

blanch152 wrote: »

A native people wishing to retain language rights?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language_in_Northern_Ireland

"he last speakers of varieties of Irish native to what is now Northern Ireland died in the 20th century. Irish as spoken in Counties Down[8] and Fermanagh were the first to die out, but native speakers of varieties spoken in the Glens of Antrim[9] and the Sperrin Mountains of County Tyrone[10] and County Londonderry survived into the 1950s and 1970s respectively, whilst the Armagh dialect survived until the 1930s or '40s.[11] Varieties of Irish indigenous to the territory of Northern Ireland finally became extinct as spoken languages when the last native speaker of Rathlin Irish died in 1985.[12] Séamus Bhriain Mac Amhlaigh, who died in 1983, was reportedly the last native-speaker of Antrim Irish."

There are no native varieties of Irish left in Northern Ireland. Most speak the Donegal dialect.

Irish is their native language, regardless of what it sounds like. What's your obsession with dialects when discussing languages? You still haven't realised that they are different?

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2017 05:19PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Irish is their native language, regardless of what it sounds like. What's your obsession with dialects when discussing languages? You still haven't realised that they are different?

I think that could be the problem here tbh. A revealing post there from Blanch.

For Reals · 05-07-2017 05:31PM

blanch152 wrote: »

A native people wishing to retain language rights?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language_in_Northern_Ireland

"he last speakers of varieties of Irish native to what is now Northern Ireland died in the 20th century. Irish as spoken in Counties Down[8] and Fermanagh were the first to die out, but native speakers of varieties spoken in the Glens of Antrim[9] and the Sperrin Mountains of County Tyrone[10] and County Londonderry survived into the 1950s and 1970s respectively, whilst the Armagh dialect survived until the 1930s or '40s.[11] Varieties of Irish indigenous to the territory of Northern Ireland finally became extinct as spoken languages when the last native speaker of Rathlin Irish died in 1985.[12] Séamus Bhriain Mac Amhlaigh, who died in 1983, was reportedly the last native-speaker of Antrim Irish."

There are no native varieties of Irish left in Northern Ireland. Most speak the Donegal dialect.

Simply put Irish is both a people and a language. The two are part of Irish culture.
Not sure where you are going with the dialect. Ye olde English is still part of English culture and heritage. Should we bin Shakespeare? I mean nobody speaks like that and it died out. Hey nonny nonny and for sooth and that.

Thankfully we are still aways from the only difference between cultures being a label.

The Ulster Scots argument is akin to wanting street signs in London also in Cockney rhyming slang IMO. Neither here nor there I suppose, but to boil down the current impasse to merely some irrelevance, insures continued cultural ignorance and ignores the other issues such as opening the door to equal rights for gays.

blanch152 · 05-07-2017 05:54PM

For Reals wrote: »

Simply put Irish is both a people and a language. The two are part of Irish culture.
Not sure where you are going with the dialect. Ye olde English is still part of English culture and heritage. Should we bin Shakespeare? I mean nobody speaks like that and it died out. Hey nonny nonny and for sooth and that.

Thankfully we are still aways from the only difference between cultures being a label.

The Ulster Scots argument is akin to wanting street signs in London also in Cockney rhyming slang IMO. Neither here nor there I suppose, but to boil down the current impasse to merely some irrelevance, insures continued cultural ignorance and ignores the other issues such as opening the door to equal rights for gays.

Actually, what is interesting about the Wikipedia piece is that it puts Irish in the Northern Ireland context (a reconstructed language or dialect) in the same place as SF put Ulster-Scots.

For Reals · 05-07-2017 05:58PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Actually, what is interesting about the Wikipedia piece is that it puts Irish in the Northern Ireland context (a reconstructed language or dialect) in the same place as SF put Ulster-Scots.

Not really. That's (a part of anyway) the discussion isn't it?

We've gone from SF being unreasonable about language, to the DUP being similar over Ulster Scots, (a variant of pidgin English IMO).
Now we've moved on to the legitimacy of a language.

Back to point, this current impasse is not just down to SF and the Irish language.

FrancieBrady · 05-07-2017 06:43PM

Somebody has yet to explain what it is they expect SF, the SDLP and moderates to do in northern Ireland. Just keep going on pretending to be a normal society and turn a blind eye to one party blocking progress again and again and again?

As soon as SF took a hardline their vote went up...what does that say about the frustration of the people?

end of the road · 06-07-2017 02:04AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Somebody has yet to explain what it is they expect SF, the SDLP and moderates to do in northern Ireland. Just keep going on pretending to be a normal society and turn a blind eye to one party blocking progress again and again and again?

As soon as SF took a hardline their vote went up...what does that say about the frustration of the people?

exactly. most people have had enough of the DUP. the tories are so desperate for power they will get into bed with them and implement a coalition of chaos, and the DUP are so desperate for influence in britain. no doubt it's only a matter of time before the lot goes bang and the DUP are thankfully buried for good, meaning NI can progress and move forward and modernise fully.

Red_Wake · 06-07-2017 10:02AM

end of the road wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Somebody has yet to explain what it is they expect SF, the SDLP and moderates to do in northern Ireland. Just keep going on pretending to be a normal society and turn a blind eye to one party blocking progress again and again and again?

As soon as SF took a hardline their vote went up...what does that say about the frustration of the people?

exactly. most people have had enough of the DUP. the tories are so desperate for power they will get into bed with them and implement a coalition of chaos, and the DUP are so desperate for influence in britain. no doubt it's only a matter of time before the lot goes bang and the DUP are thankfully buried for good, meaning NI can progress and move forward and modernise fully.

The DUP is still the largest party in NI, which somewhat undermines this assertion.

FrancieBrady · 06-07-2017 10:09AM

Red_Wake wrote: »

The DUP is still the largest party in NI, which somewhat undermines this assertion.

I wonder if the people of the UK were asked about that, what the answer would be?
Given that this party is blocking key rights that the people of the UK have? Would the UK electorate be happy that these people have influence in Westminster?
I think he is right, most people have had enough of the DUP, on the island of Ireland and in the UK.

Red_Wake · 06-07-2017 11:19AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

The DUP is still the largest party in NI, which somewhat undermines this assertion.

I wonder if the people of the UK were asked about that, what the answer would be?
Given that this party is blocking key rights that the people of the UK have? Would the UK electorate be happy that these people have influence in Westminster?
I think he is right, most people have had enough of the DUP, on the island of Ireland and in the UK.

When did nationalists in NI start needing the rest of the UK for political support?

The UK electorate is apparently unhappy about it going by the media[though I'm unclear how much of this is related to the DUP's policies and how much is due to them supporting the Tory party and the cash payoff which they're receiving], but you can be sure they'd be just as sick of SF[due to SF's past actions in the mainland].
So really you should say the UK is sick of both main NI parties. But again, you'll only represent one side of the sectarian divide.

FrancieBrady · 06-07-2017 11:43AM

Red_Wake wrote: »

When did nationalists in NI start needing the rest of the UK for political support?

The UK electorate is apparently unhappy about it going by the media[though I'm unclear how much of this is related to the DUP's policies and how much is due to them supporting the Tory party and the cash payoff which they're receiving], but you can be sure they'd be just as sick of SF[due to SF's past actions in the mainland].
So really you should say the UK is sick of both main NI parties. But again, you'll only represent one side of the sectarian divide.

You may or may not be right. But despite the effort to make it about SF... again, you objected to the poster claiming that 'most people are sick of the DUP'.

In the UK they have only known the policies of the DUP in a crash course for the last few weeks and they are turning away in disgust already.
It's shocking the amount of MP's who would be discriminated against by DUP policy who are willing to turn a blind eye to what is happening to their so called fellow citizens. 'United Kingdom'? Aye right.

Red_Wake · 06-07-2017 11:56AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

When did nationalists in NI start needing the rest of the UK for political support?

The UK electorate is apparently unhappy about it going by the media[though I'm unclear how much of this is related to the DUP's policies and how much is due to them supporting the Tory party and the cash payoff which they're receiving], but you can be sure they'd be just as sick of SF[due to SF's past actions in the mainland].
So really you should say the UK is sick of both main NI parties. But again, you'll only represent one side of the sectarian divide.

You may or may not be right. But despite the effort to make it about SF... again, you objected to the poster claiming that 'most people are sick of the DUP'.

In the UK they have only known the policies of the DUP in a crash course for the last few weeks and they are turning away in disgust already.
It's shocking the amount of MP's who would be discriminated against by DUP policy who are willing to turn a blind eye to what is happening to their so called fellow citizens. 'United Kingdom'? Aye right.

Given that the citizens of the mainland of the UK have only really been paying attention to the DUP for a few weeks, and that one of the conditions of their support was a cash payoff, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some element of contempt. Their support is parish pump politics writ large.

Is it unreasonable to bring up SF in the context of the UK, when the thread is about SF's relationship to Westminster. To me it seems the DUP has more claim to be off topic.

FrancieBrady · 06-07-2017 12:02PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

Given that the citizens of the mainland of the UK have only really been paying attention to the DUP for a few weeks, and that one of the conditions of their support was a cash payoff, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some element of contempt. Their support is parish pump politics writ large.

Is it unreasonable to bring up SF in the context of the UK, when the thread is about SF's relationship to Westminster. To me it seems the DUP has more claim to be off topic.

Yes it is in relation to the comment made by the poster who wasn't talking about SF.
Everything that happens does not need the rider 'ah but SF are.....'. It has been going on since the start of the thread. Silly tbh.

Red_Wake · 06-07-2017 12:42PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

Given that the citizens of the mainland of the UK have only really been paying attention to the DUP for a few weeks, and that one of the conditions of their support was a cash payoff, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some element of contempt. Their support is parish pump politics writ large.

Is it unreasonable to bring up SF in the context of the UK, when the thread is about SF's relationship to Westminster. To me it seems the DUP has more claim to be off topic.

Yes it is in relation to the comment made by the poster who wasn't talking about SF.
Everything that happens does not need the rider 'ah but SF are.....'. It has been going on since the start of the thread. Silly tbh.

Again, the thread is about SF.

FrancieBrady · 06-07-2017 01:13PM

This is a useful piece summing up were nationalists are at with the DUP.
Rather than it being a cheap diversion it is a sign that patience has completely run out with the DUP and the British Government if not the Irish one as well.

For most nationalists Cultural Supremacy has meant and means only one thing: Orange and unionist domination and naked sectarianism. Nationalists genuinely feel and have felt like second class citizens in our own place. Most have no affinity with Britishness and most certainly none for unionism, loyalism or Orangeism. Yet we are surrounded on every side by the symbols of Britishness and the ‘unique displays of Britishness’ which dominate the public space.

I pay a TV licence yet every year must witness airtime given, courtesy of the BBC and my money, to what is to me is a display of naked sectarianism, foisted upon us under the guise of an Orangefest. Then there is the effrontery of the bonfires, the seas of flags, kerb painting and territory marking. Many bonfires are lit by DUP and unionist worthies. Many others besides are bedecked with the most grossly offensive sectarian, anti-nationalist and anti-catholic displays of hatred. Most are built throughout my native city with the clear preference being to have them in as close proximity as possible to the misnamed peace walls.

Young loyalists, driven into paroxysms of ‘loyalist grievance’ are ignored, even worse, indulged as they erect huge and in some cases life threatening bonfires wherever they like, be it private or public space. This is tolerated and colluded with by those in authority and come the night of the 11th of July there will be scenes of drunkeness and drug taking with blood-curdling songs celebrating sentiments such as ‘we are up to our necks in fenian blood’ and other even more offensive lyrics yet we are told by the DUP that this is to be equated with protection of Irish, an indigenous minority language which has the oldest vernacular literature in Europe and which is a shared heritage for all.

Language protection is a Europe wide practice. Our neighbours in Scotland and Wales have legal protections. How much more do we need them here given our circumstances?.

http://eamonnmallie.com/2017/07/dont-trust-unioinist-politicians-respect-rights-jake-mac-siacais/

end of the road · 06-07-2017 01:58PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I wonder if the people of the UK were asked about that, what the answer would be?
Given that this party is blocking key rights that the people of the UK have? Would the UK electorate be happy that these people have influence in Westminster?
I think he is right, most people have had enough of the DUP, on the island of Ireland and in the UK.

unfortunately some of the electorate are happy because it means the tories are in power and labour aren't. that's how desperate they are for the tories to remain in power. the same people were ranting about corbyn being a terrorist sympathiser and supporter, yet try and justify the tories getting in to bed with actual extremists. brexit has a lot to do with it as well, because these people want a brexit that means no more brown people, rather then one that is good for the uk and all effected.

astrofool · 06-07-2017 02:03PM

Ah now, bonfires, tv programs and name calling, by reacting to these, they're getting exactly what they want, ignored, it will be gone within a generation or two. I'm not sure what the goal is, make racists think different, or give equal opportunity to racists on both sides of the divide?

Again, all those things above don't matter to the daily lives of most people on this Island.

FrancieBrady · 06-07-2017 02:06PM

astrofool wrote: »

Ah now, bonfires, tv programs and name calling, by reacting to these, they're getting exactly what they want, ignored, it will be gone within a generation or two. I'm not sure what the goal is, make racists think different, or give equal opportunity to racists on both sides of the divide?

Again, all those things above don't matter to the daily lives of most people on this Island.

If they don't matter, why are you here?

astrofool · 06-07-2017 02:12PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If they don't matter, why are you here?

As a citizen of Ireland and a member of boards I should be allowed to call out the childishness that is Northern Ireland politics.

FrancieBrady · 06-07-2017 02:21PM

astrofool wrote: »

As a citizen of Ireland and a member of boards I should be allowed to call out the childishness that is Northern Ireland politics.

Yes and I should be allowed to call out childishness on Boards.

Part of the continuing problem here is the 'I'm alright Jack' attitude from those in the south whose duty it is to see to it that the GFA takes effect.

It's just the usual laziness and selfishness. I wonder what would happen if 100 foot high bonfires, burning effigies of people of your identity, appeared over the gardens of Foxrock.
Quick and decisive action I would imagine.

astrofool · 06-07-2017 02:30PM

They can burn effigies of me all they want, if they have a license for a bonfire, have at it, I also didn't question why you were posting on this thread.

The Northern Ireland problem is two sides unable to see beyond their own nose, getting more entrenched in insulting each other in more and more obnoxious ways, and neither side able to get over it. Move on, ignore them, and they'll burn themselves out, the Neanderthals within the DUP and SF will soon start disappearing and dying off.

FrancieBrady · 06-07-2017 02:38PM

astrofool wrote: »

They can burn effigies of me all they want, if they have a license for a bonfire, have at it, I also didn't question why you were posting on this thread.

The Northern Ireland problem is two sides unable to see beyond their own nose, getting more entrenched in insulting each other in more and more obnoxious ways, and neither side able to get over it. Move on, ignore them, and they'll burn themselves out, the Neanderthals within the DUP and SF will soon start disappearing and dying off.

Well I challenge you to show us, how on the scale that the DUP is denying rights, that nationalists are doing 'the same'?

On the scale that Unionists engage in sectarian displays of supremacy, that nationalists are doing the same?

One or two incidents won't suffice here, show us the similarity in scale.

And it is quite clear you have no understanding of what happens in many places during the 'cultural expression' that is Orangefest.

The Golden Miller · 06-07-2017 02:42PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well I challenge you to show us, how on the scale that the DUP is denying rights, that nationalists are doing 'the same'?

On the scale that Unionists engage in sectarian displays of supremacy, that nationalists are doing the same?

I'd say you'll be waiting a while for a straight answer to the above

SF and Westminster

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