What does it take to receive a custodial sentence in this country?

Kidchameleon · 03-07-2017 02:38PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So let him be free to be a pain in the arse to gardai, the council and (not meaning to sound flippant) the local woman ?

What about all the male victims of his crimes?

topper75 · 03-07-2017 03:02PM

Grayson wrote: »

I don't know about you but I never knew anything about the person I was passing on the street.

I have never been so saddled with the politically correct thing as to not have at least a fair idea by the cut of someone in passing.

Guy:Incognito · 03-07-2017 03:16PM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

What about all the male victims of his crimes?

Them too.

Samuel T. Cogley · 03-07-2017 04:40PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So let him be free to be a pain in the arse to gardai, the council and (not meaning to sound flippant) the local woman ?

No, a prudent course should be taken. For example giving him two weeks in light of the presented circumstances. The problem with these discussions is nuance is never taken into account. It's black and white - ah shure he's got away with it etc. etc. No he hasn't, he's been given a final chance, in light of homelessness and mental illness.

As for fine defaulters and prison, they were being turned away and I expect they still are in the main. One of the biggest issue with Irish prisons was low sentence low risk offenders taking places for a few months/weeks at a time. AFAIK the number of minor things like TV license defaults getting anything more than a cup of tea in reception was minuscule.

There is absolutely an issue with high risk offenders like this lad being out and about and not being dealt with properly. The thing that gets me is that people seem to think it's a problem exclusively with the courts, it simply isn't. A holistic approach needs to be taken.

Samuel T. Cogley · 03-07-2017 04:44PM

topper75 wrote: »

A whole world of fantastic people have landed on our shores and made fine contributions.

But then you have the like of this Ghariani character.

Sometimes I miss old Ireland where " the foreigners" amounted to Spanish and French students in July, the Chinese takeaway people, and some quarehawk German painter lad.

Now the streets are awash with people we know damn all about. The imbalance is only going to grow over the next few decades. The African population is doubling between 2015 and 2050 the UN tells us. Not enough room in Africa for all of them.

Judges like the one who made that decision certainly won't save us.

You're Irish a take it? We've plenty of room, probably due to the massive amount of Irish economic migrants all over the world.

topper75 · 03-07-2017 04:59PM

I would say we have room for immigrants willing to work and behave, OK. But not beyond that.

There is a lot of human flotsam being waved through passport 'control'. Taken a ferry into this country lately?
Bike hire in the Aran islands would involve more paper work and checks.

Immigration isn't a huge problem. Unchecked immigration is our downfall waiting to happen though.

AlekSmart · 03-07-2017 05:37PM

vicwatson wrote: »

Judge Melanie Greally's name constantly pops up in the light touch sentencing. She'd be the judge I'd want to be in front of if charged with a crime

It seems that a sector of the Judiciary,of which Judge Greally may be one ? ,deem it appropriate to prioritize the wellbeing of the accused ahead of any responsibilities they may feel towards the Law Abiding Citizenry at large.

The number,and nature,of cases such as Mr Ghariani's,is doubtlessly encouraging further lawbreaking and puts the rest of Law-Abiding Society at a substantially greater risk of the convicts reoffending.

Some of these Judges appear quite sanguine about putting ordinary people at such increased risk,and that is an issue which deserves some explanation from them.

Such explanation is highly unlikely to ever materialize under our current system of appointing Judges,which I feel MUST change,if our societal fabric is to have any chance of surviving.

It is high time that some form of General Oversight be made available to the Ordinary Law-Abiding Public in the selection and approval of Judges,and yes,if that makes a few Judges pause for a moment before releasing the likes of this fella back out on the streets,then it's a RESULT,as far as I'm concerned.

In the absence of this,I would suggest some form of Media Channel,where Judges in cases like this,were required to explain their reasoning to the lower orders,even if the sentence remains unchanged.

As it stands,our Judiciary remain unaccountable to any of those they supposedly preside over.

Violent abberational criminality is fast becoming acceptable or at least excusable in the eyes of some of our Judges....which is a dangerous route to be pushing the country down.

Samuel T. Cogley · 03-07-2017 05:54PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

It seems that a sector of the Judiciary,of which Judge Greally may be one ? ,deem it appropriate to prioritize the wellbeing of the accused ahead of any responsibilities they may feel towards the Law Abiding Citizenry at large.

The number,and nature,of cases such as Mr Ghariani's,is doubtlessly encouraging further lawbreaking and puts the rest of Law-Abiding Society at a substantially greater risk of the convicts reoffending.

Some of these Judges appear quite sanguine about putting ordinary people at such increased risk,and that is an issue which deserves some explanation from them.

Such explanation is highly unlikely to ever materialize under our current system of appointing Judges,which I feel MUST change,if our societal fabric is to have any chance of surviving.

It is high time that some form of General Oversight be made available to the Ordinary Law-Abiding Public in the selection and approval of Judges,and yes,if that makes a few Judges pause for a moment before releasing the likes of this fella back out on the streets,then it's a RESULT,as far as I'm concerned.

In the absence of this,I would suggest some form of Media Channel,where Judges in cases like this,were required to explain their reasoning to the lower orders,even if the sentence remains unchanged.

As it stands,our Judiciary remain unaccountable to any of those they supposedly preside over.

Violent abberational criminality is fast becoming acceptable or at least excusable in the eyes of some of our Judges....which is a dangerous route to be pushing the country down.

This is knee-jerk reaction at it absolute finest. Fabric of society surviving? Crime is down generally and has been for years. What you seem to be suggesting is democratically electing Judges - I say the same thing I've said before, watch the BBC documentary 'American Justice'.

As for Judges explaining, you had the right to go and sit in for the entirety of the trial, listen to the arguments and come to a decision on what the best course of action was. Written Judgements in these sorts of cases wouldn't be read and if they were they'd not capture everything that was said anyway - so what is it you're looking for? All trials to be available on Youtube - I'm not entirely opposed to that to be fair - but how many people would actually watch the whole thing and make a nuanced argument?

You're rather missing the point that locking people up and throwing away the key isn't considering the wider societal impact either. Again the US is a great example.

What's needed for effective custodial sentences is massive investment in the prison system, not a sea-change in the courts.

thebaz · 03-07-2017 07:27PM

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

No, a prudent course should be taken. For example giving him two weeks in light of the presented circumstances. The problem with these discussions is nuance is never taken into account. It's black and white - ah shure he's got away with it etc. etc. No he hasn't, he's been given a final chance, in light of homelessness and mental illness.

I know many people with mental illness and none have committed as much crime as Mr. Ghariani - he was given a suspended sentence for attacking an innocent female , this was supposedly his last chance , he failed to engage with probation services , and was given yet another chance - I wonder would you or the judge be happy with Mr. Ghariani living next door to a close female relative of yours today ? - I know I would'nt.

snowflaker · 03-07-2017 07:33PM

He's two weeks to attend his probation or else jailed. That's hardy letting him off

goose2005 · 03-07-2017 07:36PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh, they could fire him into a psychiatric hospital.

They already did, for a while.

mick.oleary · 03-07-2017 07:43PM

Why the obsession with locking people up? It does not benefit the victim or society at all.

Surely rehabilitation (if possible) is a better option along with making people to do either voluntary work that benefits society or garnishing their wages to compensate the victim?

IMO there probably are not that many crimes that warrant locking people up. Those who need to be locked up for life should probably just be "neutralised".

Kivaro · 03-07-2017 08:05PM

mick.oleary wrote: »

Why the obsession with locking people up? It does not benefit the victim or society at all.

He is a sexual predator and convicted sexual offender.
Locking up people like him does benefit society.

(Many) Irish Judges are not really concerned about society's view of their adjudications because Judges are not accountable to the citizenry. It will only change when accountability becomes real.

mick.oleary · 03-07-2017 08:07PM

Kivaro wrote: »

He is a sexual predator and convicted sexual offender.
Locking up people like him does benefit society.

(Many) Irish Judges are not really concerned about society's view of their adjudications because Judges are not accountable to the citizenry. It will only change when accountability becomes real.

If he is a sexual predator and cannot be reformed then what is the point of locking him up?

IamAGobdaw · 04-07-2017 12:52AM

mick.oleary wrote: »

If he is a sexual predator and cannot be reformed then what is the point of locking him up?

So he won't attack anyone else.

kupus · 04-07-2017 02:40PM

ITs high time that judges are held accountable to the sentences they give.

Plumbers and Electricians are held accountable if somebody is electrocuted or a gas mains leaks. Why not judges?
Health and safety are down the second something goes wrong on a worksite.

If they let a manslaughterer out with 4 years and that manslaughterer repeats his actions then the judge should face a court for negligence on health and safety grounds.

Ronaldinho · 04-07-2017 03:00PM

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

AlekSmart wrote: »

It seems that a sector of the Judiciary,of which Judge Greally may be one ? ,deem it appropriate to prioritize the wellbeing of the accused ahead of any responsibilities they may feel towards the Law Abiding Citizenry at large.

The number,and nature,of cases such as Mr Ghariani's,is doubtlessly encouraging further lawbreaking and puts the rest of Law-Abiding Society at a substantially greater risk of the convicts reoffending.

Some of these Judges appear quite sanguine about putting ordinary people at such increased risk,and that is an issue which deserves some explanation from them.

Such explanation is highly unlikely to ever materialize under our current system of appointing Judges,which I feel MUST change,if our societal fabric is to have any chance of surviving.

It is high time that some form of General Oversight be made available to the Ordinary Law-Abiding Public in the selection and approval of Judges,and yes,if that makes a few Judges pause for a moment before releasing the likes of this fella back out on the streets,then it's a RESULT,as far as I'm concerned.

In the absence of this,I would suggest some form of Media Channel,where Judges in cases like this,were required to explain their reasoning to the lower orders,even if the sentence remains unchanged.

As it stands,our Judiciary remain unaccountable to any of those they supposedly preside over.

Violent abberational criminality is fast becoming acceptable or at least excusable in the eyes of some of our Judges....which is a dangerous route to be pushing the country down.

This is knee-jerk reaction at it absolute finest. Fabric of society surviving? Crime is down generally and has been for years.

No, it's not. Do some research on the surge in influence by clans in Germany, mainly of MENA descent. They have absolutely no fears or inhibitions, part of which can be expained by precisely this kind of light touch sentancing.

Grayson · 04-07-2017 04:18PM

Ronaldinho wrote: »

No, it's not. Do some research on the surge in influence by clans in Germany, mainly of MENA descent. They have absolutely no fears or inhibitions, part of which can be expained by precisely this kind of light touch sentancing.

You should google the stats and you'll see that crime isn't actually increasing that much. There has been a spike in crimes by, as you say, people of MENA descent. However there's a few things to bear in mind. Although the number of crimes have gone up, the proportion of crimes have gone down. There's more refugees so of course there's more crime by refugees. However despite the increase in population there hasn't been a proportional increase in crimes.
Secondly, crimes committed by a person of darker skin are actually twice as likely to be reported as crimes committed by a white person.

And what you're forgetting about the case the OP mentioned is that the guy is mentally ill. He's been diagnosed as such. So his actions don't have anything to do with his ethnicity but are rather due to a mental illness. Trying to say that there's a problem with people of a particular race or ethnicity because of the actions of one mentally ill person is stupid.

Editing to add:

From the link above.

The frequency rate of crimes in actually sank by about 0.5 percent, down from 7,797 crimes per 100,000 residents in 2015, to 7,755 crimes per 100,000 people in 2016. And when excluding crimes that related to immigration policy violations - such as illegal stay or entry - the overall number of crimes dropped by 0.7 percent.

Looking back over the years, the frequency rate has generally hovered between 7,500 and 8,000 crimes per 100,000, reaching a high of 8,337 per 100,000 residents in 1993.

It's also worth mentioning that there's been a huge increase in crime against people of middle eastern descent.

Ronaldinho · 04-07-2017 04:53PM

Grayson wrote: »

Ronaldinho wrote: »

No, it's not. Do some research on the surge in influence by clans in Germany, mainly of MENA descent. They have absolutely no fears or inhibitions, part of which can be expained by precisely this kind of light touch sentancing.

You should google the stats and you'll see that crime isn't actually increasing that much. There has been a spike in crimes by, as you say, people of MENA descent. However there's a few things to bear in mind. Although the number of crimes have gone up, the proportion of crimes have gone down. There's more refugees so of course there's more crime by refugees. However despite the increase in population there hasn't been a proportional increase in crimes.
Secondly, crimes committed by a person of darker skin are actually twice as likely to be reported as crimes committed by a white person.

And what you're forgetting about the case the OP mentioned is that the guy is mentally ill. He's been diagnosed as such. So his actions don't have anything to do with his ethnicity but are rather due to a mental illness. Trying to say that there's a problem with people of a particular race or ethnicity because of the actions of one mentally ill person is stupid.

Editing to add:

From the link above.

The frequency rate of crimes in actually sank by about 0.5 percent, down from 7,797 crimes per 100,000 residents in 2015, to 7,755 crimes per 100,000 people in 2016. And when excluding crimes that related to immigration policy violations - such as illegal stay or entry - the overall number of crimes dropped by 0.7 percent.

Looking back over the years, the frequency rate has generally hovered between 7,500 and 8,000 crimes per 100,000, reaching a high of 8,337 per 100,000 residents in 1993.

It's also worth mentioning that there's been a huge increase in crime against people of middle eastern descent.

Why are you bringing refugees into the conversation?

My point is that if sentencing is as leniant as this then it's going to undermine criminals' fear or respect for the rule of law and those that try to uphold it.

The original post reminded me of a case I saw in Hannover where over 20 police officers were seriously injured but only suspended sentences were handed out. What kind of message does this send?

Grayson · 04-07-2017 05:01PM

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Why are you bringing refugees into the conversation?

My point is that if sentencing is as leniant as this then it's going to undermine criminals' fear or respect for the rule of law and those that try to uphold it.

The original post reminded me of a case I saw in Hannover where over 20 police officers were seriously injured but only suspended sentences were handed out. What kind of message does this send?

You're the person who brought up Germany and people of middle eastern/North African descent. I was pointing out that crime is basically the same although there has been an increase in crimes against MENA people.

Stovepipe · 04-07-2017 05:05PM

you want to see how cops behave when their own are injured? Look up the Love Ulster riots....the gardai made sure that every toerag who took part was tracked down and nicked for riotous behaviour. For about three years after, the papers would frequently have small sidebars mentioning that a named individual was jailed for being involved in the riots. It caught my attention because it would have taken a huge effort to nail these people because many of them were random rioters who vanished once the main event was over. The gardai can be diligent when they want to...

thebaz · 04-07-2017 09:12PM

you really wonder what you have to do to get a custodial sentence - a guy with 40 something previous convictions got of today for selling heroin - saying he thought it was fake, then he escaped from the Garda station - he got the probation act , (which i thought was for first offenders) - has Judge Ryan any idea of the destruction heroin addiction has caused and is causing to communities around Ireland ?

Lackey · 04-07-2017 09:39PM

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

He'd be a massive pain in the arse to the prison service, I suspect that he has deep physiological problems and that would pose an issue in jailing him - quite right of the Judge to try all other avenues before jailing him which will happen in two weeks if the conditions imposed are not met.

He'll be more than a 'pain in the arse' to the next person he assaults

Fr_Dougal · 21-07-2017 06:42PM

Guess who's back?

Convicted sex offender initially given suspended sentence jailed after 'coming to garda attention five times since May'

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/convicted-sex-offender-initially-given-suspended-sentence-jailed-after-coming-to-garda-attention-five-times-since-may-35955213.html

Garda Padraig Nagle told the court that since last May Ghariani had come to garda attention five times. On one occasion he stared at a 17-year-old girl after she walked past his home before following her in a car to a house.
On June 23 a motorist allegedly saw Ghariani walking along a road with his trousers down and making movements towards the front of his body. On a third occasion he allegedly stole a mobile phone from a woman.

He needs to be locked up.

Richard Hillman · 21-07-2017 07:41PM

Judges need to be held accountable for the crimes their "let off's" are committing.

There needs to be a motion for civil action for negligence

Ulysses Gaze · 21-07-2017 09:18PM

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Guess who's back?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/convicted-sex-offender-initially-given-suspended-sentence-jailed-after-coming-to-garda-attention-five-times-since-may-35955213.html

He needs to be locked up.

Another one of those highly skilled, model workers that are going to power the Irish and European economy into the 21st century.

Well that's what the Far-Left and certain politicians keep telling us all anyway.

What does it take to receive a custodial sentence in this country?

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