Shootings in New York and Arkansas. Will America ever cop the fÃºck on regarding guns

Kivaro · 01-07-2017 10:06AM

Emerald Old Whole-wheat wrote: »

Seems the shooter had a somewhat chickened past
http://nypost.com/2017/06/30/bronx-hospital-gunman-was-a-former-doctor-with-a-sexual-assault-rap/

Sorry, could not let this one go .....

123shooter · 01-07-2017 10:14AM

Samaris wrote: »

Yes, but in European countries, for the most part guns are strictly controlled and anyone who wants to buy one (or must have one - Switzerland, I believe) is expected to be properly trained and their guns registered. Europe generally does not have this mad culture of "Any attempt to manage guns is THE GOVERNMENT STEALING MAH GUNS" nonsense.

The governments do not do this to protect citizens, they do it because they see an easy target and a chance to make a name for theirselves or to highlight it at a time when they need to hide bad news.

Even in EU countries you can legally own an assault rifle even though the EU is trying to bring in some draconian laws regarding guns which do not make sense.

Take the terrorist part with a healthy dose of British understatement! I'm not planning to talk them out of it!

I was taking the p**s.:)

But that lack of guns is why European "lone wolves" go for the car/truck notion. It works, and it's a hell of a lot easier although the eventual death toll -tends- to be lower.

Not true think about. I want to kill infidels for Allah, how can I do it? Guns....need cash to buy and would attract attention en-route and run out of ammo so not really efficient...........Steal truck and wipe out people.........requires no money........doesn't attract attention........kill as many as I can keep truck going.........It's what you call a no brainer and a big problem for security.

Dealing with the American gun problem does not necessarily -mean- removing all the guns. Or even most of the guns. Personally, I would prefer if that was the case, but hell, their choice. But at the least if they introduced stringent and sane gun laws, it might well cut down on the amount being used stupidly or malevolently. And cut down on the sheer amount - 112 guns per 100 people? That is a fcuking ridiculous amount of guns, and that's the gun ownership rate -dropping-. America owns by far the most guns per capita (even if most of them are concentrated into the hands of far less Americans, approx 22% of the population, with half of them being owned by 3% of the population), and comes eleventh on the gun deaths list. It is probably not hugely surprising to note the names above it, like Honduras, Colombia, Brazil, etc. Finland is the highest European gun owning country (6th in ownership, 22nd in gun violence deaths), and there's a similar pattern for other European countries - the higher the gun ownership rate, the higher the general gun violence death rate. I take it to be modified by general conditions in the country regarding either wars or continual unrest as well as training and gun culture (low unrest, high training, low gun culture = less of a death rate than factors being switched around).

We've seen some gun crime over this side of the Atlantic, but it's rare enough really. So it is possible to own guns and not be a complete tool with them as a country. The US doesn't quite seem to have grasped how, and it's mostly because of the idiotic gun culture coupled with relatively poor training for many of those that have them (because it's considered an invasion of privacy to track the damn weapons).

It doesn't matter if someone owned a hundred guns he can only physically shoot one at a time.......they will run out of bullets and need to reload.......are very loud and will alert security personel who will very soon take you out.

But I don't know the answer to Americas problems but all the evidence is there for all to see that banning every legal gun there will not make much difference to them or same in any country.

Erik Shin · 01-07-2017 10:16AM

Guns are bad... Americans are stupid...it's a lethal combo

01-07-2017 10:19AM

Actually the type of gun used in this shooting is banned in the state of New York, where the shooting happened.

Zebra3 · 01-07-2017 10:34AM

Are we all so lucky that a country that is in such a mess wants to bomb its way around the world, murdering innocent people to enforce its righteous views on other countries?

:rolleyes:

Nabber · 01-07-2017 11:02AM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Are we all so lucky that a country that is in such a mess wants to bomb its way around the world, murdering innocent people to enforce its righteous views on other countries?

:rolleyes:

Sounds like ISIS.
I'd rather that USA be the Single super power than have Turkey/China/India/Iran......

123shooter · 01-07-2017 11:06AM

Nabber wrote: »

Sounds like ISIS.
I'd rather that USA be the Single super power than have Turkey/China/India/Iran......

He does have a very good point?:)

I never understand why Irish people are obsessed with what goes on in other countries that doesn't concern them.......Are you all just super nosey and critical of others or what?

3 pages and nobody has blamed Trump for the shooting yet........give it time:rolleyes:

diomed · 01-07-2017 11:11AM

123shooter wrote: »

So is there a point to banning guns?

Yes

123shooter · 01-07-2017 11:14AM

diomed wrote: »

Yes

I am all ears..........have you a valid reason or you just want to impose your morals and ideals on all others?

01-07-2017 11:33AM

If you cease the manufacture of all weapons immediately, and could even then magically remove 50% of all existing weapons from circulation, the US would still have more guns than people.

"Gun control" at this point is just sticking your finger in a bursting reservoir. Pointless. Instead of looking at its gun problem America would do a lot better to admit, face up to, and tackle its mental health issues. More lives might be saved that way.

123shooter · 01-07-2017 11:37AM

Deleted User wrote: »

If you cease the manufacture of all weapons immediately, and could even then magically remove 50% of all existing weapons from circulation, the US would still have more guns than people.

"Gun control" at this point is just sticking your finger in a bursting reservoir. Pointless. Instead of looking at its gun problem America would do a lot better to admit, face up to, and tackle its mental health issues. More lives might be saved that way.

Agreed but removing all of the guns in any country has never and will never remove the problems of people killing other people.

01-07-2017 11:49AM

Not ban guns, but severely limit access to them. Police them stricter. There's a reason that many other countries have guns legal, yet

Americans are 10 times more likely to be killed by guns than people in other developed countries, a new study finds.

Compared to 22 other high-income nations, the United States' gun-related murder rate is 25 times higher. And, even though the United States' suicide rate is similar to other countries, the nation's gun-related suicide rate is eight times higher than other high-income countries, researchers said.

Source: CBS News

Say whatever you want, but there is something rotten at America's core.

01-07-2017 11:50AM

123shooter wrote: »

He does have a very good point?:)

I never understand why Irish people are obsessed with what goes on in other countries that doesn't concern them.......Are you all just super nosey and critical of others or what?

3 pages and nobody has blamed Trump for the shooting yet........give it time:rolleyes:

You think Ireland has no connection to the US? :rolleyes:

123shooter · 01-07-2017 11:53AM

riffmongous wrote: »

You think Ireland has no connection to the US? :rolleyes:

Ireland has connections everywhere but I doubt if you will find too many other forums in other countries worrying or talking about what goes on in Ireland or how bad their leader is.

01-07-2017 11:55AM

123shooter wrote: »

Ireland has connections everywhere but I doubt if you will find too many other forums in other countries worrying or talking about what goes on in Ireland or how bad their leader is.

If our leader were as bad as Trump, they probably would.

123shooter · 01-07-2017 11:59AM

Deleted User wrote: »

If our leader were as bad as Trump, they probably would.

But if he is he is there not here and no matter what you or I say here ain't gonna change what he does there.

dr.fuzzenstein · 01-07-2017 12:10PM

123shooter wrote: »

He does have a very good point?:)

I never understand why Irish people are obsessed with what goes on in other countries that doesn't concern them.......Are you all just super nosey and critical of others or what?

3 pages and nobody has blamed Trump for the shooting yet........give it time:rolleyes:

Trump is the Messiah! His Muslim ban and Mexican border wall will immediately solve this problem once and for all. It will be terrific, you know, the greatest thing ever, all his friends say so. And then we can all relax with our cup of covfefe.
And then he'll drain the swamp. It'll be awesome.

123shooter · 01-07-2017 12:13PM

Jeez I wish it would stop raining then I can off here and get out..........anybody know any good porn sites.

Ulysses Gaze · 01-07-2017 12:35PM

Nightclub Creep wrote: »

The truth is racist?

How many bruddas killed in Chicongo last year?

You could make the point with statistics to back up your point.

Not making comments like this that expose you as a racist. And ensure you will be banned.

123shooter wrote: »

Jeez I wish it would stop raining then I can off here and get out..........anybody know any good porn sites.

Plenty around. But it depends what your kinks are.

wes · 01-07-2017 01:21PM

Mass shootings are pretty much a daily thing in the US now, and the NRA are basically acting like a terrorist organization:

The NRA recruitment video that is even upsetting gun owners

It is only going to get worse imo.

123shooter · 01-07-2017 01:25PM

Absolutely chucking it down now. Better send them porn sites cause I ain't listening to you lot calling each other racists now.

01-07-2017 01:31PM

wes wrote: »

Mass shootings are pretty much a daily thing in the US now, and the NRA are basically acting like a terrorist organization:

The NRA recruitment video that is even upsetting gun owners

It is only going to get worse imo.

Where was the statement from the NRA when Castile was shot?

wes · 01-07-2017 01:57PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Where was the statement from the NRA when Castile was shot?

Yeah, after there complete silence after that shooting, it became pretty clear that the NRA has nothing to do with protecting gun owners. The Castile case was a slam dunk in regards to gun owner rights, and yet they were completely silent.

ScumLord · 01-07-2017 02:11PM

123shooter wrote: »

Illegal guns are more readily available to people now then they have ever been and only a very small amount would be stolen legally owned guns.

How many of those illegal guns started out as legal guns? I don't think illegal guns are made in a different factory to the legal ones, so Americans are producing, buying and selling so many guns the majority of them can somehow end up being traded illegally.

The problem for America isn't so much the amount of guns, although that increases the risks exponentially. The problem is America's attitude to guns, they're not just a tool in America, guns are idolised in America, they have wrapped the gun up in ideals of freedom and cowboys and 80s action heroes. They idolise their military to an extent that would embarrass the spartans.

The gun has become a symbol of doing whatever you damn well please and if anyone disagrees the gun becomes the ultimate period to that kind of talk. Even without using their guns they can use them as a threat, "anyone comes onto my land and tries to make me do something I don't want to do I'll shoot them".

That's not how a civilized state is supposed to work. Threatening to fall back to a weapon should things not go your way is of course going to create tension, it is of course going to encourage police forces to tool up if there's always the possibility the person their calling to is armed and feels justified in shooting anyone that dares knock on their door.

Americas civil war is a long time ago now, they've forgotten what that kind of war is like. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if America ends up in another one.

123shooter · 01-07-2017 02:18PM

ScumLord wrote: »

How many of those illegal guns started out as legal guns? I don't think illegal guns are made in a different factory to the legal ones, so Americans are producing, buying and selling so many guns the majority of them can somehow end up being traded illegally.

I can only assume that is innocence or ignorance but still you post as if you know.

The world is awash with guns. Every country makes their own now and in some countries you even get 'counterfeit copies' of guns and no guesses where. You can also buy them from anywhere if you were to go looking. Not all countries regard them as a problem so have no real problem with the sales or amounts.

If needs be the equipment to make them is readily available now so there is another avenue. But saying that the IRA were in to making all kinds of stuff 40 odd years ago so basically where there is a demand then somebody will supply it.

The problem for America isn't so much the amount of guns, although that increases the risks exponentially. The problem is America's attitude to guns, they're not just a tool in America, guns are idolised in America, they have wrapped the gun up in ideals of freedom and cowboys and 80s action heroes. They idolise their military to an extent that would embarrass the spartans.

The gun has become a symbol of doing whatever you damn well please and if anyone disagrees the gun becomes the ultimate period to that kind of talk. Even without using their guns they can use them as a threat, "anyone comes onto my land and tries to make me do something I don't want to do I'll shoot them".

That's not how a civilized state is supposed to work. Threatening to fall back to a weapon should things not go your way is of course going to create tension, it is of course going to encourage police forces to tool up if there's always the possibility the person their calling to is armed and feels justified in shooting anyone that dares knock on their door.

That's your view.

ScumLord · 01-07-2017 02:30PM

123shooter wrote: »

The world is awash with guns.

I don't think the world is awash with guns. Ireland isn't. Many european countries aren't, war zones are awash with guns, and America is awash with guns but I don't think any modern western democracies come close to America for guns in the wild.

Every country makes their own now and in some countries you even get 'counterfeit copies' of guns and no guesses where. You can also buy them from anywhere if you were to go looking. Not all countries regard them as a problem so have no real problem with the sales or amounts.

Are you saying that the majority of illegal guns in the US are counterfeits imported from outside the US?

No democracy in the world is anything like the US when it comes to guns, there is no comparison outside of third world countries.

123shooter · 01-07-2017 02:39PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think the world is awash with guns. Ireland isn't. Many european countries aren't, war zones are awash with guns, and America is awash with guns but I don't think any modern western democracies come close to America for guns in the wild.

Are you saying that the majority of illegal guns in the US are counterfeits imported from outside the US?

No democracy in the world is anything like the US when it comes to guns, there is no comparison outside of third world countries.

The IRA and others had the Northern Irish police force, a large part of the British army and the Gards and army of the Republic not to mention all the Euro security forces watching, tracking, monitoring and even intercepting any possible arms shipments to a tiny dot on the worlds surface.

And yet enough guns rockets explosives and god knows what got through to supply the thousands in who knows how many terrorist organisations for almost 30 years.

Do you think all the crims walk round with a sporting rifle and o/u shotgun?.....they are far too big and cumbersome. They want small pistols and revolvers which have been banned in UK since 1997 (20 years) and here for about 5 years I think.

So you tell me where you think they come from?

ScumLord · 01-07-2017 02:52PM

123shooter wrote: »

The IRA and others had the Northern Irish police force, a large part of the British army and the Gards and army of the Republic not to mention all the Euro security forces watching, tracking, monitoring and even intercepting any possible arms shipments to a tiny dot on the worlds surface.

And yet enough guns rockets explosives and god knows what got through to supply the thousands in who knows how many terrorist organisations for almost 30 years.

That was 20 years ago and a borderline civil war. Your now comparing the average American gun user (which by your statistics is using an illegal gun) to terrorist organisations?? What has that got to do with gun use in America anyway. I'm not arguing that guns aren't imported into America I just find it hard to believe that the majority are. We see guns being stolen all the time in America and I think it would be preferable to most criminals to steal high quality guns in aMerica than import knock off ones from some unknown place. I don't think even the chinese would be manufacturing knock off guns for illegal export to the US, the only other places I can think of that would be manufacturing knock off guns would be the middle east and Africa.

Do you think all the crims walk round with a sporting rifle and o/u shotgun?.....they are far too big and cumbersome. They want small pistols and revolvers which have been banned in UK since 1997 (20 years) and here for about 5 years I think.

Irish gangs can get their hands on guns, they import them from the people supplying them with drugs. They don't have loads of guns though, nothing compared to the US. They probably have to import bullets too, they can't go down the road and buy armor piercing bullets for their assault riffle in their local walmart. So there's no real comparison to the handful of poor quality fourth hand guns Irish and English criminals have and the brand new top of the range guns Americans have along with easy access to as many bullets as they can afford/rob.

I still don't believe the majority of guns used illegally in the states ar imported knock offs.

BlinkingLights · 01-07-2017 02:54PM

Sure even if they had gun control laws they've literally got more guns than people. It could take 300 years to deescalate it!

ScumLord · 01-07-2017 03:00PM

BlinkingLights wrote: »

Sure even if they had gun control laws they've literally got more guns than people. It could take 300 years to deescalate it!

You'd have to convince the people that love guns and the symbolism they've attached to guns that the responsible thing to do as an American citizen is to have tighter control on guns, and not to idolise guns so much. They're not ready to make that change. They're not ready to give up on the wild west fantasy land that they live in.

Shootings in New York and Arkansas. Will America ever cop the fÃºck on regarding guns

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