National Championship 2017

RobFowl · 29-06-2017 12:56PM

lyders wrote: »

The women's races definitely has to happen on the nationals weekend. Otherwise it will clash with something internationally and not allow riders like me to come home for it.

Agree 100%

What happened last Sunday cannot be allowed to happen again, was a bad istake and we must learn from it. Wexford did an awful lot well and mistake happen, we must use them as learning opportunities rather thana stick to repeatedly bash them. (thats not aimed at you btw).

As Irish champion your job is to trainrace and do the jersey proud (as you have done superbly to date). Despite what others here are calling for you are not a full time lobbyist to be phoning and sorting our the problems in the organsiations. Your open letter was clear and sucinct.

Lets not bash the organisers here but let the next ones try not to repeat what happened.

PS take all the advice here with a pinch of salt (apart from RAAM's about socks and fashion though).

eeeee · 29-06-2017 12:57PM

longshank wrote: »

If you have issues, I do not think, as a National Champion, this is the medium or the method to address them. Have you picked up the phone and spoken to CI President about these issues? (His mobile number is on the CI website)
The timing and method of your criticism will put off current and potential race organisers. You are doing no favours for those who race in Ireland.

Seriously? The national champion cannot contribute to a thread on a discussion board that deals directly with something that affected her?
Cheeses.
I'm quite sure the poster in question is well able to put forth her views to the appropriate channels.
So no public criticism is allowed? That's madness. The more open the discussions around things, controversies etc the better, the more hidden these things are the more intractable they become, that applies to all of them!
Lessons have to be learnt, this can't be done by not showing criticism, discussion or debate on what went wrong. This is the only way things can develop and move on.
Cheeses are people so delicate now nothing negative can be said?

RobFowl · 29-06-2017 01:00PM

Bleedin wimmins speaking up, know your place and let your betters with suits and grey hair organise things...

RobFowl · 29-06-2017 01:07PM

BTW a similar thing happened they day before, the M60 riders were told if the "didn't start racing" they would be pulled over and make to wait for the M40/50 races to pass...
I was in a team car behind and despite the small field can confirm they were racing hard.

longshank · 29-06-2017 01:14PM

lyders wrote: »

So I should just keep stump and be happy with the fact the national championship race was halted with 10km to go! Ok, great solution!

What was damning on the organisers was the language used by them after the race. Which I won't go into again...see one of my previous posts.

I never said you should keep stump or not find a solution.

1bryan · 29-06-2017 01:16PM

longshank wrote: »

If you have issues, I do not think, as a National Champion, this is the medium or the method to address them. Have you picked up the phone and spoken to CI President about these issues? (His mobile number is on the CI website)
The timing and method of your criticism will put off current and potential race organisers. You are doing no favours for those who race in Ireland.

qualadeeee mansplainingggg

ford2600 · 29-06-2017 01:30PM

While, having National Championships run by Cycling Ireland directly is the preferred option, how exactly would that work and what would it cost? Are we (cycling Ireland members) willing to pay for it? In truth all cycling activities we enjoy club spins, sportives, racing, audax whatever is enjoyed on the back of primarily volunteer work. How do we marry volunteer work with the professional standards people are looking for?

Does some CI co ordinator(s) work with the chosen club? Are a few preferred courses chosen?

It isn't an easy solution.

The answer isn't anonymously criticizing, Wexford volunteers (the cost being future clubs saying fcuk that along with putting down the very people sport depends on) or telling the multiple national champion to shut up please

While the lads in Wexford (and Orwell last year) did a lot of brilliant work and no doubt learnt a lot. How do we keep the hard earned knowledge for the future; what works, what doesn't etc etc.

If it really matters to you, get involved with your club, discuss it and get in contact with CI with your suggestions.

It's way easier to destroy and picture than paint one (shamelessly stolen from Glen Hoddle after Glen McGrath kicked lumps out of him in 1988 FA cup final;))

1bryan · 29-06-2017 01:44PM

ford2600 wrote: »

In truth all cycling activities we enjoy club spins, sportives, racing, audax whatever is enjoyed on the back of primarily volunteer work. How do we marry volunteer work with the professional standards people are looking for?

great question. The Giro d'Italia's recent-ish visit here was almost completely run and marshalled by volunteers, along with CI of course. So there's a model there already.

gordongekko · 29-06-2017 01:50PM

Would it be possible to let the ladies race off earlier. I. Start the men's race when the ladies were around the 35km mark instead of the 15km mark. The head of the field would be long finished by the time the men's race caught up.

RobFowl · 29-06-2017 02:02PM

gordongekko wrote: »

Would it be possible to let the ladies race off earlier. I. Start the men's race when the ladies were around the 35km mark instead of the 15km mark. The head of the field would be long finished by the time the men's race caught up.

I think the answers are clear, either use a longer circuit or run the races at different times.
The overlap was predictable using previous average speeds so should not happen again.

1bryan · 29-06-2017 02:30PM

Weepsie wrote: »

With significant preplanning from professional organisations with massive sponsor input on a scale that no event here really has.

You cant really compare the 2

that's actually untrue of the Irish (republic) leg of it. CI were pretty much told, this is happening, it's up to you to make it happen. I sat in on some of the meetings around the planning. To suggest there was significant preplanning is wide of the mark (though I guess that depends on your definition of 'significant preplanning'). It was a much bigger operation too, in that all roads (in Dublin, anyway) were closed from early afternoon, until the race passed.

The main sponsor of the Irish leg was the Northern Ireland tourist board. There was no major sponsor from the republic involved.

It's not a like-with-like comparison, admittedly, but it was in answer to a specific question.

longshank · 29-06-2017 03:12PM

ford2600 wrote: »

The answer isn't anonymously criticizing, Wexford volunteers (the cost being future clubs saying fcuk that along with putting down the very people sport depends on) or telling the multiple national champion to shut up please

For the 3rd time, I have NOT said Lydia should not express her views. I would only consider public criticism appropriate as a last resort to address issues and would not consider it constructive as a first resort.

cornet · 29-06-2017 05:08PM

brocbrocach wrote: »

Show us your medals.
Only race organisers are qualified to talk about this, eh?

Absolutely not, but you have a simplistic attitude to organising a race so if you have some positive experiences dealing with Guards, residents and the Co. Co it would be great to share it with the rest of us.

fondriest · 29-06-2017 05:33PM

Just to answer a few things I see in the thread without going back and pulling out quotes.

Firstly and I'll shout this one because I have said it a few times, WE COULD NOT START ANY EARLIER . It was out of our control . (must try arguing down the council next time , sure never thought of actually asking them)

When picking the circuit at the end of last year between 18 and 20km was quoted so that's what we aimed for. As for previous years I'm not sure of lap distances . Rode a couple of them and think Carlingford may have been a bit shorter, Clonmel around the same.

Cycling Ireland input is minimal , they looked after the entry system and anyone I sent their direction with enquiries was sorted pretty quickly they have some very good staff and I think they did a good job at what was their job .
They look after supply of jersey's and medals. They made a contribution to costs , while grateful for it I personally (not as an organiser but as a CI member) would have thought a governing body should contribute more.

I assume it was CI who appointed commisaires etc , I wasn't involved in that area of organising . But as far as I recall that was about the sum of CI input .

Just an idea of the scale of the event.

The event cost about 33,000 euro to hold , approx half raised from entries the rest raised by us. We will break even but only just .This was not done to line our pockets or anyone else's.

We had approx. 160 marshals over the 3 days I think about another 50 crew inc motos , comms, sign on, service and finish area.

We stopped the Dublin Rosslare train 3 times.

8 Gardaí each day.

1km of barriers, 150 traffic cones, too many signs.

We called to approx. 700 homes and business .

There was waaaay too much paperwork.

It was practically a full time job for the last 2 weeks and part time for the last 2 months.

I have no problem with constructive criticism but of a lot of it hasn't been constructive , criticism is not constructive if it's " should have started earlier" when we couldn't , " should have a longer lap " when we couldn't , " should have finished later " when we couldn't . I have offered a few people who have made uninformed remarks to pm me and I'll answer any question , I have yet to be taken up on the offer.

I would have plenty of informed advise for CI or any club considering running next years event but I'd imagine none of us will be asked.

Congrats to Lydia on her win.

Lusk_Doyle · 29-06-2017 08:41PM

So are we nominating Lydia for President of CI or what already?

lyders · 29-06-2017 09:08PM

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

So are we nominating Lydia for President of CI or what already?

You can't!! I'm not even a member of Cycling Ireland!

marvin80 · 29-06-2017 09:11PM

fondriest wrote: »

The event cost about 33,000 euro to hold , approx half raised from entries the rest raised by us. We will break even but only just .This was not done to line our pockets or anyone else's.

Just a side-note but surely Cycling Ireland can contribute more to running this event each year. How many members have they - 15,000 - take €2 from each membership subscription and it takes a lot of pressure off clubs worrying about raising money and they can concentrate on running the weekend itself.

Kaisr Sose · 29-06-2017 09:16PM

Just seen this:

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/prominent-figures-join-in-letter-of-protest-to-cycling-ireland-1.3138283?mode=amp

RobFowl · 29-06-2017 09:45PM

lyders wrote: »

You can't!! I'm not even a member of Cycling Ireland!

Didn't stop Pat going for the Presidency of the UCI

Lusk_Doyle · 29-06-2017 10:53PM

lyders wrote: »

You can't!! I'm not even a member of Cycling Ireland!

If Pat McQuaid was able to get around that formality I'm sure that you can too!

Edit: RobFowl beat me to it!

greenspurs · 30-06-2017 08:27AM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Just seen this:

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/prominent-figures-join-in-letter-of-protest-to-cycling-ireland-1.3138283?mode=amp

"Due in part to the narrow roads on the course, the race judges finally decided to stop the women’s bunch, even though they were on their last lap."

WOW ... theres a new cause .. How come none of us on here thought of that!!
Well done Shane stokes ... :rolleyes:

greenspurs · 30-06-2017 09:54AM

And for those that think organising events is soooo easy ........

http://www.slaneycyclingclub.com/sunday-july-2nd-senior-races-cancelled-slaney-cc-eddie-tobin-memorial/

fondriest · 30-06-2017 10:13AM

greenspurs wrote: »

And for those that think organising events is soooo easy ........

http://www.slaneycyclingclub.com/sunday-july-2nd-senior-races-cancelled-slaney-cc-eddie-tobin-memorial/

Its a pity the Eddie Tobin Memorial is always a good race on nice roads, I was talking to the lads in Slaney last night and they're trying to reschedule for later in the year.

On a completely selfish note it means I will actually get a chance to get back training this weekend :-)

Finnrocco · 30-06-2017 10:15AM

Put the Ladies race on Saturday.

Make it the last race of the day, start it at 2 or so - put all the other races off earlier.

Might have to run one of the Masters races on Sunday morning.

CramCycle · 30-06-2017 11:54AM

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Lets just do it in Corkagh Park. Half an hour plus three laps per race. Done.

Mondello, 45 minutes + 3 laps.

brocbrocach wrote: »

Show us your medals.
Only race organisers are qualified to talk about this, eh? Gosh it seems like an impossible task. There is just no solution!!! I'm glad they work it out every Sunday throughout the world.

They often don't. Haven't organised any big races but I have helped out on many small ones. The last minute decisions that have to be taken are constant even though you may have spent the last few months at meetings, talking to the council, the gardai, getting local community buy in (and you need it). Its's not like you rock up and say, right so, here is the circuit, here are where the marshals go, let's have at it (although some people do). Analyse traffic in the area at that time, how busy is it, identify every potential resident you will potentially impede, visit their houses, tell them your plan. Partake in local events outside your own to show that your not a one trick pony, you have a vested interest in the area. Design emergency response plans, consult with potential obstacle makers, what time of year is it, will there be a high likely hood of farm machinery if the weather changes, what dairy farmers are in the area, can you guarantee no other farmers are moving stock (they can stop traffic you can't). Safety statements, tidy up afterwards, reliable volunteers. Not to mention you got your club to buy in and front money, will the riders be there on the day, will you break even. You are now representing them to the rest of the cycling community, will you improve or ruin their reputation. Are there other big events nearby on the day that will affect traffic, will the council spring a surprise road resurfacing (Eddie Tobin aside, it has happened in two other races I went too where they resurfaced it two days before the race). Good race logistics are key to a good event, and even the best laid plans can go asunder. I have only skirted a few of the things to consider. Do you have a club that has enough marshals, how much time will they give, will you need to buy in support from other clubs (you certainly cannot afford to pay anyone).

greenspurs wrote: »

Well done Shane stokes ... :rolleyes:

Shane didn't stop it, he would be reporting and commenting on the decision of the comms.

All this said, I am ever so grateful for Lyders to come on and clarify a few things. My view was very one sided, and there are alot of things I thought that while they sounded reasonable, in hindsight, probably didn't. The prospect of the race being on another day to me before hand, was to me (and others), not a good one as I would have thought their would be some BS backlash that one was being treated lesser than the other. This was quite sexist (although unintentionally). Having talked to riders and listened to Lyders comments, forcing them on the same day to keep the appearance of fairness and equality is probably more insulting.

Unless CI drop the lap length requirement, it will have to be changed. Pick the races out of a hat to decide who is Saturday and who is Sunday.

Also be aware that gardai or councils might not allow or appreciate a 2 day event, so if this happens, then you may have to look for the nationals to be held in two different locations, maybe make each one part of another event.

greenspurs · 30-06-2017 12:03PM

CramCycle wrote: »

Shane didn't stop it, he would be reporting and commenting on the decision of the comms.

I never said he did......
He insinuated/speculated that the width of the roads had an impact on the decision.
IMO hes trying to heap extra/unwarranted 'blame' on the organisers!

RobFowl · 30-06-2017 12:11PM

Finnrocco wrote: »

Put the Ladies race on Saturday.

Make it the last race of the day, start it at 2 or so - put all the other races off earlier.

Might have to run one of the Masters races on Sunday morning.

Agree fully, with he greatest respect to the masters races the Elite mens and womens races are the most important.

brocbrocach · 30-06-2017 12:14PM

CramCycle wrote: »

They often don't. Haven't organised any big races but I have helped out on many small ones. The last minute decisions that have to be taken are constant even though you may have spent the last few months at meetings, talking to the council, the gardai, getting local community buy in (and you need it). Its's not like you rock up and say, right so, here is the circuit, here are where the marshals go, let's have at it (although some people do). Analyse traffic in the area at that time, how busy is it, identify every potential resident you will potentially impede, visit their houses, tell them your plan. Partake in local events outside your own to show that your not a one trick pony, you have a vested interest in the area. Design emergency response plans, consult with potential obstacle makers, what time of year is it, will there be a high likely hood of farm machinery if the weather changes, what dairy farmers are in the area, can you guarantee no other farmers are moving stock (they can stop traffic you can't). Safety statements, tidy up afterwards, reliable volunteers. Not to mention you got your club to buy in and front money, will the riders be there on the day, will you break even. You are now representing them to the rest of the cycling community, will you improve or ruin their reputation. Are there other big events nearby on the day that will affect traffic, will the council spring a surprise road resurfacing (Eddie Tobin aside, it has happened in two other races I went too where they resurfaced it two days before the race). Good race logistics are key to a good event, and even the best laid plans can go asunder. I have only skirted a few of the things to consider. Do you have a club that has enough marshals, how much time will they give, will you need to buy in support from other clubs (you certainly cannot afford to pay anyone).

I'd well believe it. I don't think anyone was saying it was easy peasy to be fair, and the spin that any criticism of the overall strategy is an attack on the men and women standing at junctions is very unfair. The volunteers and organisers alike are doing trojan work for nothing but the good of the sport.

RobFowl · 30-06-2017 12:20PM

Bottom line is events went off safely with no major injuries (usual mix of collar bones and road rash !).
Many many positives, great crowds, some lovely features on the course, facilities great and good atmosphere.
As with any event lesson can be learned from it and the women's race was the big one this time.
I wonder should be ask CI to have more support for race organisers?
Might be one for a motion at the AGM...

1bryan · 30-06-2017 01:08PM

CramCycle wrote: »

Mondello, 45 minutes + 3 laps.

They often don't. Haven't organised any big races but I have helped out on many small ones. The last minute decisions that have to be taken are constant even though you may have spent the last few months at meetings, talking to the council, the gardai, getting local community buy in (and you need it). Its's not like you rock up and say, right so, here is the circuit, here are where the marshals go, let's have at it (although some people do). Analyse traffic in the area at that time, how busy is it, identify every potential resident you will potentially impede, visit their houses, tell them your plan. Partake in local events outside your own to show that your not a one trick pony, you have a vested interest in the area. Design emergency response plans, consult with potential obstacle makers, what time of year is it, will there be a high likely hood of farm machinery if the weather changes, what dairy farmers are in the area, can you guarantee no other farmers are moving stock (they can stop traffic you can't). Safety statements, tidy up afterwards, reliable volunteers. Not to mention you got your club to buy in and front money, will the riders be there on the day, will you break even. You are now representing them to the rest of the cycling community, will you improve or ruin their reputation. Are there other big events nearby on the day that will affect traffic, will the council spring a surprise road resurfacing (Eddie Tobin aside, it has happened in two other races I went too where they resurfaced it two days before the race). Good race logistics are key to a good event, and even the best laid plans can go asunder. I have only skirted a few of the things to consider. Do you have a club that has enough marshals, how much time will they give, will you need to buy in support from other clubs (you certainly cannot afford to pay anyone).

Shane didn't stop it, he would be reporting and commenting on the decision of the comms.

All this said, I am ever so grateful for Lyders to come on and clarify a few things. My view was very one sided, and there are alot of things I thought that while they sounded reasonable, in hindsight, probably didn't. The prospect of the race being on another day to me before hand, was to me (and others), not a good one as I would have thought their would be some BS backlash that one was being treated lesser than the other. This was quite sexist (although unintentionally). Having talked to riders and listened to Lyders comments, forcing them on the same day to keep the appearance of fairness and equality is probably more insulting.

Unless CI drop the lap length requirement, it will have to be changed. Pick the races out of a hat to decide who is Saturday and who is Sunday.

Also be aware that gardai or councils might not allow or appreciate a 2 day event, so if this happens, then you may have to look for the nationals to be held in two different locations, maybe make each one part of another event.

great post. 2 things I'd take from it. First, if there was some way of assigning the race to a 'region' rather than a club, then you would take huge pressure of that single club for providing marshalls/other volunteers. Second, I don't think the men would mind too much having to race on the saturday. I know it would probably suit some of the elite riders who might have the good fortune to be starting the Tour de France the following week by giving an extra day's rest. Perhaps it would encourage our other top pros to ride the race that they seem happy to have ignored for the past several years.

National Championship 2017

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