Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

Professor Moriarty · 29-06-2017 02:45PM

ThisRegard wrote: »

It's a red herring, Lions benefited under a yellow card too. His yellow card wasn't the result of him being particularly stupid.

He was very unlucky as the player's other leg was being lifted at the same time. It's still a yellow card but it's mitigating circumstance's wrt conceding the penalty and being off for 10 minutes from a coach's perspective.

razorblunt · 29-06-2017 02:52PM

Raisins wrote: »

Serious green tinted glasses he didn't flog anyone for ego he backed down on the geo picks and he shouldn't have.

Rory Best has shown that his throwing can't be trusted. There's an argument for him but he can't be considered very unlucky. Henderson cost the mid weekers two tries for a stupid sin bin and said himself it might cost him.

Henderson didn't cost anyone, anything.
Any coach acting rationally, would have protected both Lawes and Henderson. Kruis went on for Lawes, Hill didn't get put on.

That, in itself is down to Gatland.

awec · 29-06-2017 02:56PM

Former Former wrote: »

And that's fair enough - but Wallace and Croft set those tours on fire from the start. Lawes and Henderson have not.

Form should be rewarded, but form should also be assessed over more than one game.

TBH, I think Gatland has picked the form players. We started the first test without Warburton, Sexton, North and Halfpenny, four key members of the last winning Lions squad. You would have got very, very long odds on that a couple of months ago, but Gatland did it.

Ok, so what has AWJ shown this tour?

He has been fairly unremarkable of late.

AbusesToilets · 29-06-2017 03:14PM

awec wrote: »

Ok, so what has AWJ shown this tour?

He has been fairly unremarkable of late.

He has a POC like ability to kill attacking plays, either thru dying with the ball or knocking on.

Former Former · 29-06-2017 03:32PM

awec wrote: »

Ok, so what has AWJ shown this tour?

He has been fairly unremarkable of late.

He's an unremarkable sort of player. He's solid, he works his ass off, he makes his tackles, he hits rucks. It's not eye-catching but it's very necessary.

But to be clear, I'm not saying that AWJ has demanded selection with a string of outrageous performances. I'm just saying that it's not right to simply dismiss his selection as Gatland's bias.

Buer · 29-06-2017 03:33PM

OldRio wrote: »

Rory Best throwing? How many has he missed in comparison to the other hookers,? Pray tell.

Well, off the top of my head he threw two crooked against the Chiefs in attacking positions, threw one crooked in his tour opener and was part of a complete misfire at a crucial point when he came on against the Blues (that was a collective failure though). I'm sure there have been others that were lost though. Not all secured line outs are necessarily good throws either. There was a throw on Tuesday that went close to Lawes' knees. The Hurricanes didn't put anyone in the air but if a lock had tracked Lawes, he'd nearly have picked it off from a standing point.

Best has come on strongly in the tour but there's no doubt that his throwing holds him back and he's prone to a mistake in that area. If he was as reliable as the others, he'd be the clear best option. But, as it stands, if there's one score in the game and it's in the final quarter with a line out on the NZ 22, anyone would prefer to see Owens or George throwing in.

Buer · 29-06-2017 03:38PM

awec wrote: »

Ok, so what has AWJ shown this tour?

Well, for a start, he was possibly the best forward against the Crusaders who had four of the starting front five for NZ playing.

Asus X540L · 29-06-2017 03:52PM

Wow. Warburton is a grade A scumbag.

To paraphrase "That was nice of Peter to come up and shake my hand BUT THEY ALWAYS DO THAT"

Gatland and his Welsh cronies are a cancer on this sport.

Ardillaun · 29-06-2017 03:53PM

Our situation is really a symptom of rugby's plight outside NZ. In the World Cup era, the sport hasn't recruited enough top athletes from new countries in Europe and elsewhere.

bilston · 29-06-2017 03:54PM

Would you rather win 13/14 lineouts and get what on at the breakdown or win 11/14 lineouts and best (pun intended) the ABs at the breakdown as well as in theory having a stronger scrum?

ThisRegard · 29-06-2017 03:57PM

ThisRegard wrote: »

In this forum anyway I don't think there has been much of a Welsh conspiracy movement, certainly not compared to previous tours anyway.

Asus X540L wrote: »

Wow. Warburton is a grade A scumbag.

To paraphrase "That was nice of Peter to come up and shake my hand BUT THEY ALWAYS DO THAT"

Gatland and his Welsh cronies are a cancer on this sport.

I had to tempt fate didn't I.

29-06-2017 03:58PM

Asus X540L wrote: »

Wow. Warburton is a grade A scumbag.

To paraphrase "That was nice of Peter to come up and shake my hand BUT THEY ALWAYS DO THAT"

Gatland and his Welsh cronies are a cancer on this sport.

I can think of a bigger cancer on the sport.

Professor Moriarty · 29-06-2017 04:01PM

Asus X540L wrote: »

Wow. Warburton is a grade A scumbag.

To paraphrase "That was nice of Peter to come up and shake my hand BUT THEY ALWAYS DO THAT"

Gatland and his Welsh cronies are a cancer on this sport.

Maybe he was saying that they are always nice.

Asus X540L · 29-06-2017 04:01PM

Basil3 wrote: »

I can think of a bigger cancer on the sport.

And what might that be?

Erik Shin · 29-06-2017 04:03PM

Asus X540L wrote: »

And what might that be?

Hansen ?

irishbucsfan · 29-06-2017 04:03PM

Gas

Buer · 29-06-2017 04:04PM

bilston wrote: »

Would you rather win 13/14 lineouts and get what on at the breakdown or win 11/14 lineouts and best (pun intended) the ABs at the breakdown as well as in theory having a stronger scrum?

It's never that black and white though. There are more variables. George is a far better carrier. Best is more physical in the tight. But it's the overall picture that probably makes a big impression.

They appear to be bringing in Itoje and Warburton to address the breakdown issues in the hope that they can get to grips with those without sacrificing line out strengths. They've already given up a weapon in POM so probably don't want to lose anything else there.

Also, the combination of having George packing down alongside and in front of his clubmates as well as working with them as a line out unit certainly helps him.

irishbucsfan · 29-06-2017 04:05PM

Jamie George played well last week, don't think he was ever in trouble?

bilston · 29-06-2017 04:27PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Jamie George played well last week, don't think he was ever in trouble?

George did play well. I just think there was an argument for Best's inclusion, at least on the bench, because of his breakdown ability and scrumaging ability. Those were two areas where we came off second best last week. Also people question Best's throwing and that is justified, but has Owens been any better than Best in the lineout? I can think of two or three big throws going astray from him.

irishman86 · 29-06-2017 04:51PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I would definitely disagree about Warburton, I'm a big fan.

AWJ may show his history. But if this selection shows anything its definitely not a Welsh bias.

Disagree all you like Warburton hasnt been as good as POM, Tips, SOB, Toby, Stander etc etc.
His selection shows two things, that he will always pick Jones/Warbs his Welsh boys and that he doesnt have any sort of plan changing from Farrell/Teo/Davies to Sexton/Farrell/Davies a combination he hasnt played once from the start.
There is two pivots now in the team but our plan will still be kick it in the air and hope for the best.

irishman86 · 29-06-2017 04:54PM

Billy Beautiful Guillotine wrote: »

I'm just glad we have so many impartial posters on here to set him/the rest of us who are fine with the selection straight.

Warburton is going to make an impact. The Lions lost ground time and time and time again around the fringes last weekend, he's excellent in those areas because he's strong in contact and while I don't think he's destructive like say Ferris was, his hits stick. He doesn't soak tackle, he'll stop you on the gainline. This will be essential in not letting their pack get such an upper hand again. We all rate POM but he's not a powerful carrier or tackler, and I don't think his work at the breakdown justified his selection again. He's easily the best lineout backrow in the squad so that is a loss, no doubt there.

Why would I be impartial in this, Im either supporting the lions or NZ
Warbuton will make no impact at all and our line out got weaker.

irishman86 · 29-06-2017 04:56PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

70% of the team are not welsh ...

very hard to argue welsh bias with that .... even hard to suggest conformation bias as well.

I think the selection of AWJ is an error, i personally dont think he currently is playing to a level to do what gatland needs done.... but i dont consider Gatland biased for selecting him.

to me its much of a muchness with warburton / POM, what you marginally lose with one you marginally gain with the other.
im not as much of a fan as others are on here of warburton, i think whats he does well, he does very, very well....but i think hes a limited player rugbywise (if he was 4 inches taller he would have made an excellent second row)

If you pick one single player that is Welsh due to the fact they are Welsh over a player out performing that said player that is bias.
So yes Jones hasnt been as good as Henderson/Lawes/Kruis but yet starts
Warburton well for me hes been the worst back row

29-06-2017 05:04PM

irishman86 wrote: »

If you pick one single player that is Welsh due to the fact they are Welsh over a player out performing that said player that is bias.
So yes Jones hasnt been as good as Henderson/Lawes/Kruis but yet starts
Warburton well for me hes been the worst back row

Do you think you're impartial in all this?

irishman86 · 29-06-2017 05:11PM

Billy Beautiful Guillotine wrote: »

Do you think you're impartial in all this?

Off course not, I openly dislike and dont rate Gatland.
His Welsh favouritism is all through the squad, to prove a point he didnt play the 6 players brought in.
His record against the SH is abysmal
So while I know Im not impartial, Im not saying anything incorrect

29-06-2017 05:12PM

irishman86 wrote: »

His record against the SH is abysmal

This is the only correct thing you're saying.

bilston · 29-06-2017 05:13PM

It's not just Gatland picking the team and other than Howley the other coaches aren't Welsh. I'd say Rowntree has a fairly big say over the front row and Borthwick would have a big influence over the second row. Gatland may have the very final say in a dispute but I'd imagine they'd all have to be happy with the selection before a final decision is reached.

irishman86 · 29-06-2017 05:15PM

Billy Beautiful Guillotine wrote: »

This is the only correct thing you're saying.

Are you being impartial
He said himself he didnt play them for that reason buddy :rolleyes: and you think there deserves to be what 15 Welsh players in the squad, nah buddy thats good old fashioned bias

twinytwo · 29-06-2017 05:16PM

CJ has played more rugby this season than any 2 of the other 3 backrows in the 23 combined this season. I'm all for winning the lions but the man looks wrecked. It's really starting to tell towards the end of the games he has played.

clsmooth · 29-06-2017 05:20PM

Anyone have an up to date table of minutes played for the players on tour so far?

Buer · 29-06-2017 05:52PM

twinytwo wrote:

CJ has played more rugby this season than any 2 of the other 3 backrows in the 23 combined this season. I'm all for winning the lions but the man looks wrecked. It's really starting to tell towards the end of the games he has played.

After the Toulouse game on April 1st, he started three games for the remainder of the domestic season. If he's wrecked, he's got a problem because he certainly shouldn't be.

And he isn't. Nor does he look it. He got stronger as the game went on against the Hurricanes after a quiet first half.

Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

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