Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

irishbucsfan · 29-06-2017 10:02AM

Former Former wrote: »

I heard they've brought Neil Francis on board as a media consultant and he advised them that foreigners provide the ideal scapegoat when things don't go well.

That's the beauty of the Lions tour. The majority of your side are foreigners to complain about. Scots are particularly lucky this year!

razorblunt · 29-06-2017 10:34AM

I would have thought Daly would be safer on the bench, it might give Nowell an unwarranted start but it would allow cover across the wing, FB and center. With the 2 options on the bench it's a big risk.

P.Walnuts · 29-06-2017 11:00AM

I see many SBW offloads in our future

Buer · 29-06-2017 11:12AM

I think the below comment from Warburton is as good a way as any of making sense of AWJ's retention in the team:

You can pick eight sevens [openside flankers] if you want, but if you don’t win collisions, it’s hard to slow ball down.

It does make me wonder even more about Henderson not getting a look in, though.

fitz · 29-06-2017 11:18AM

Buer wrote: »

I think the below comment from Warburton is as good a way as any of making sense of AWJ's retention in the team:

It does make me wonder even more about Henderson not getting a look in, though.

The problem I had with AWJ in the first test was that he was so slow after contact. Winning the first collision is important, but if you're struggling to get back in the line for the third, it's going to be a problem.

turnikett1 · 29-06-2017 11:20AM

I think the outrage online is a bit tiring tbh. Think Gatland is getting way more flak than he deserves simply because people don't like him - why is he so universally hated? I just never understood.

I don't really have a problem with the team. Like most people I wouldn't have AWJ in the team but I'm not too fussed either. It's a gamble, as it is with Warburton, they are both proven Test match manimals it's just a matter of whether they can conjure something despite their poor form. I think no matter what Gatland does he will get criticism. I dunno I could go into a spiel about how it's all wrong and unWarrented (huehue) but at this point I don't even care that much about the results - I'm just loving the consistent feed of high quality rugby, seeing the Home Nations players play and have the craic together and getting to know NZ rugby a bit better

The stuff that makes the Lions special. A win would be nice but let's be honest no one ever anticipated a Lions win. Hoped, maybe. But not expected. Replacing with AWJ with Henderson or whatever won't change that.

The "Geography 6" situation was farcical, no one will deny that, but apart from that I don't think Gats has made a hames of it to the extent everyone online is painting as. At least he had the balls to take up the job, after everyone else refused it - everyone knows it's a poisoned chalice. He knows it's probably gonna be 3-0, and he's prepared to deal with the criticism and uproar that will arise after the blackwash. I kind of commend him for that. I'm not some Gatland fanboy or anything, I'm overall pretty indifferent to him... I just wish people (this forum has actually been ok) would stop whinging and just get on with it. The worst is the bitter Scots who are actively hoping the Lions fail

irishman86 · 29-06-2017 11:57AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I've just received the delivery of my opinion from the internet. Gatland is only picking this team because he's a bastardman who only likes Wales. That's why he brought an Irishman and two Englishmen into the 23.

His selection of Jones and Warbuton shows his Welsh bias. Warbuton isnt even the best Welsh back row thats easily Tips

irishbucsfan · 29-06-2017 12:05PM

irishman86 wrote: »

His selection of Jones and Warbuton shows his Welsh bias. Warbuton isnt even the best Welsh back row thats easily Tips

I would definitely disagree about Warburton, I'm a big fan.

AWJ may show his history. But if this selection shows anything its definitely not a Welsh bias.

29-06-2017 12:07PM

irishman86 wrote: »

His selection of Jones and Warbuton shows his Welsh bias. Warbuton isnt even the best Welsh back row thats easily Tips

I'm just glad we have so many impartial posters on here to set him/the rest of us who are fine with the selection straight.

Warburton is going to make an impact. The Lions lost ground time and time and time again around the fringes last weekend, he's excellent in those areas because he's strong in contact and while I don't think he's destructive like say Ferris was, his hits stick. He doesn't soak tackle, he'll stop you on the gainline. This will be essential in not letting their pack get such an upper hand again. We all rate POM but he's not a powerful carrier or tackler, and I don't think his work at the breakdown justified his selection again. He's easily the best lineout backrow in the squad so that is a loss, no doubt there.

sydthebeat · 29-06-2017 12:08PM

irishman86 wrote: »

His selection of Jones and Warbuton shows his Welsh bias. Warbuton isnt even the best Welsh back row thats easily Tips

70% of the team are not welsh ...

very hard to argue welsh bias with that .... even hard to suggest conformation bias as well.

I think the selection of AWJ is an error, i personally dont think he currently is playing to a level to do what gatland needs done.... but i dont consider Gatland biased for selecting him.

to me its much of a muchness with warburton / POM, what you marginally lose with one you marginally gain with the other.
im not as much of a fan as others are on here of warburton, i think whats he does well, he does very, very well....but i think hes a limited player rugbywise (if he was 4 inches taller he would have made an excellent second row)

Buer · 29-06-2017 12:24PM

He omits the Lions captain for a test for the first time since the 1930s as well as a long established winger for the Welsh team who has been arguably the best winger from any of the nations over the past few years when no back three player is standing out on tour. The following week he completely drops the best goalkicker on tour who has been a key player for his Welsh team for almost a decade.

But it's a Gatland conspiracy to pick Welsh guys.

Jesus Christ.

29-06-2017 12:28PM

Buer wrote: »

He omits the Lions captain for a test for the first time since the 1930s as well as a long established winger for the Welsh team who has been arguably the best winger from any of the nations over the past few years when no back three player is standing out on tour. The following week he completely drops the best goalkicker on tour who has been a key player for his Welsh team for almost a decade.

But it's a Gatland conspiracy to pick Welsh guys.

Jesus Christ.

He's reverting to ty... actually I can't be arsed anymore. I reckon Warburton will have a stormer this weekend and Alun Wyn Jones will consume the All Blacks in a receding hairline performance to win the ages.

Professor Moriarty · 29-06-2017 12:29PM

10 of the 23 are English. 'Gatland' is an English name. Makes sense.

.ak · 29-06-2017 12:31PM

He only dropped Moriarty because he's actually English, not Welsh.

ThisRegard · 29-06-2017 12:44PM

Buer wrote: »

But it's a Gatland conspiracy to pick Welsh guys.

Jesus Christ.

In this forum anyway I don't think there has been much of a Welsh conspiracy movement, certainly not compared to previous tours anyway.

Buer · 29-06-2017 12:50PM

ThisRegard wrote: »

In this forum anyway I don't think there has been much of a Welsh conspiracy movement, certainly not compared to previous tours anyway.

You're right, in fairness. He has made a balls of a few things, mainly around the call ups and their involvement or lack there of but I reckon most people have taken the majority of decisions at face value.

Those that haven't are people that would be seeking out something to complain about regardless of the decisions made.

wonderfullife · 29-06-2017 12:57PM

I honestly think anybody claiming a nationality bias is misguided, but there is 100% a favourites bias! The perception here is that Warren was going to find a way to get Warburton and AWJ into the team even if it meant starting them on the wing.

Forget the nationalities involved or the Irish perspective, there is no way anyone can say AWJ and Warburton are ahead of Lawes/Henderson and Tipuric/POM on form. That's the crux of this. Taking any Irish hat off, Lawes and Tipuric are a) fit and b) out-performing their rivals for the jersey.

The key point which highlights his bias was the inclusion of Warburton on the bench last week. If you're not going to start Warburton or POM, fine, but leave them both out of the 23. Don't shoehorn in one and omit the other.

Just my 2 cents but I don't think it's a Welsh bias, I think it reeks of a loyalty/mates bias. What further cements that IMO is the omission of Halfpenny. I actually think there's a good few Welsh lads who should feel a tiny bit hard-done by on this selection, Tipuric being the main one but I also think given Halfpenny's metronomic kicking and proven track record of delivering in do-or-die Lions tests, he should have started at 15 with Liam Williams on the wing.

If you're going to bring in out-of-form players in the hope they step up and deliver a huge performance to justify selection, I'd sooner have my money on Halfpenny stepping up to the plate than Warburton.

TL;DR - What exactly did Henderson have to do to make the 23, he covered every blade of grass and carried immensely

SlickRic · 29-06-2017 01:48PM

There is no good reason for AWJ starting. I don't agree with Warburton for POM, but I see the logic at least.

AWJ isn't winning collisions, he's slow, and it's not like he ran the lineout to perfection or anything in the 1st Test.

Lawes and Henderson should be rightly scratching their heads.

Buer · 29-06-2017 01:51PM

SlickRic wrote: »

AWJ isn't winning collisions, he's slow, and it's not like he ran the lineout to perfection or anything in the 1st Test..

AWJ didn't run the line out in the 1st test.

And, whilst he didn't have a good game last week, he has been having a good tour and winning his collisions. Not the selection I'd have made but if AWJ can play as he's capable of for 50 minutes, it'll be the right call. You live and die by your selections and decisions as a coach and Gatland has backed his man here.

If AWJ doesn't deliver, Gatland is in for a kicking. But he's certainly capable of doing it.

razorblunt · 29-06-2017 01:53PM

.ak wrote: »

He only dropped Moriarty because he's actually English, not Welsh.

Not to mention as soon as he realised it wasn't THAT Henshaw he had picked ...

sydthebeat · 29-06-2017 02:03PM

20 years since the lions last won the second test game of a tour

turnikett1 · 29-06-2017 02:04PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

20 years since the lions last won the second test game of a tour

That said, it was in NZ where that happened. Records meant to be broken etc

Buer · 29-06-2017 02:05PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

20 years since the lions last won the second test game of a tour

Raisins · 29-06-2017 02:10PM

OldRio wrote: »

AWJ and Warbs picked on form?
Yeah right.

Henderson and Best very unlucky but when the coach has flogged you to death midweek because of his ego what do you expect?

Serious green tinted glasses he didn't flog anyone for ego he backed down on the geo picks and he shouldn't have.

Rory Best has shown that his throwing can't be trusted. There's an argument for him but he can't be considered very unlucky. Henderson cost the mid weekers two tries for a stupid sin bin and said himself it might cost him.

Yeah_Right · 29-06-2017 02:11PM

turnikett1 wrote: »

That said, it was in NZ where that happened. Records meant to be broken etc

That was 24 years ago.

Former Former · 29-06-2017 02:19PM

I'm slightly bemused by the criticism of the selection of AWJ. He'll be winning his 8th test cap for the Lions, moving him ahead of Paul O'Connell and drawing him level with Brian O'Driscoll. He has more proven class and ability and is far more consistent than any of the other second rows available.

Lawes and Henderson didn't get picked for the first test because they didn't earn it. Not much has changed in the interim really and neither of them are a patch on AWJ. Would we really go into a test with Lawes and Itoje or Henderson and Itoje? I wouldn't.

Buer · 29-06-2017 02:26PM

Former Former wrote: »

I
Lawes and Henderson didn't get picked for the first test because they didn't earn it. Not much has changed in the interim really and neither of them are a patch on AWJ. Would we really go into a test with Lawes and Itoje or Henderson and Itoje? I wouldn't.

There's always going to be an argument for form vs class. It's hard to know which is the right call. In the past, class operators have shown an ability to dust off the rust and deliver world class showings with minimal form.

But form has also paid rich dividends in the past. Paul Wallace wasn't even supposed to be in South Africa in 1997 but for Peter Clohessy pulling out during the camp before flying out. He got the nod ahead of Jason Leonard who is an all time great Lion and the rest is history. Or Tom Croft in 2009 who was a call up.

It's near impossible to know who is going to deliver on the day. But if AWJ has gone well in training and, last week aside, has been playing well then it's easy to see why he's in the team this week.

OldRio · 29-06-2017 02:31PM

Raisins wrote: »

Serious green tinted glasses he didn't flog anyone for ego he backed down on the geo picks and he shouldn't have.

Rory Best has shown that his throwing can't be trusted. There's an argument for him but he can't be considered very unlucky. Henderson cost the mid weekers two tries for a stupid sin bin and said himself it might cost him.

He picked his subs. He didn't use them. Him. No one else.
Therefore he hampered his team in the match.
He also hampered the chances of some players to make the test team.

Rory Best throwing? How many has he missed in comparison to the other hookers,? Pray tell.

Henderson was immense in the last game and has got better and better on the tour unlike some of the players in that team.
Pick players on form. No matter what country they represent. No bias just common sense.

ThisRegard · 29-06-2017 02:32PM

Raisins wrote: »

Henderson cost the mid weekers two tries for a stupid sin bin and said himself it might cost him.

It's a red herring, Lions benefited under a yellow card too. His yellow card wasn't the result of him being particularly stupid.

Former Former · 29-06-2017 02:43PM

Buer wrote: »

There's always going to be an argument for form vs class. It's hard to know which is the right call. In the past, class operators have shown an ability to dust off the rust and deliver world class showings with minimal form.

But form has also paid rich dividends in the past. Paul Wallace wasn't even supposed to be in South Africa in 1997 but for Peter Clohessy pulling out during the camp before flying out. He got the nod ahead of Jason Leonard who is an all time great Lion and the rest is history. Or Tom Croft in 2009 who was a call up.

It's near impossible to know who is going to deliver on the day. But if AWJ has gone well in training and, last week aside, has been playing well then it's easy to see why he's in the team this week.

And that's fair enough - but Wallace and Croft set those tours on fire from the start. Lawes and Henderson have not.

Form should be rewarded, but form should also be assessed over more than one game.

TBH, I think Gatland has picked the form players. We started the first test without Warburton, Sexton, North and Halfpenny, four key members of the last winning Lions squad. You would have got very, very long odds on that a couple of months ago, but Gatland did it.

Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

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