Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

irishbucsfan · 25-06-2017 12:11PM

Fairly sad to read this thread on twitter, seems it was not a nice atmosphere at the game last night for some.

https://twitter.com/alandymock/status/878810113099694080

25-06-2017 12:12PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Fairly sad to read this thread on twitter, seems it was not a nice atmosphere at the game last night for some.

https://twitter.com/alandymock/status/878810113099694080

Every country has d*ckheads.

swiwi_ · 25-06-2017 01:29PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

Canes name very strong team to play the lions

Hurricanes team to play the Lions: Jordie Barrett, Nehe Milner-Skudder, Vince Aso, Ngani Laumape, Julian Savea, Otere Black, Te Toiroa Tahuriorangi, Brad Shields (c), Callum Gibbins, Vaea Fifita, Sam Lousi, Mark Abbott, Jeff To'omaga-Allen, Ricky Riccitelli, Ben May. Reserves: Leni Apisai, Chris Eves, Mike Kainga, James Blackwell, Reed Prinsep, Kemara Hauiti-Parapara, Wes Goosen, Cory Jane.

It's about the strongest they can field.

ABs: Beauden B, Ardie S, TJP

Injured: Coles, Reggie Goodes, Fatiolofa.

I'll be amazed if Brad Shields doesn't get a big offer from overseas. He must be soon off contract and unless he gets picked in November for NZ I'd say he'd give up. Best season yet IMO.

swiwi_ · 25-06-2017 01:32PM

Basil3 wrote: »

Every country has d*ckheads.

Indeed. I know a couple of kiwis who got a right serve of verbal abuse from Irish fans after Cardiff 2007.

I think nz fans have much improved over the years.

Did anyone post the story about the lions lad who was given food and board at the Ioane house? That was great.

Squidgy Black · 25-06-2017 01:49PM

swiwi_ wrote: »

Indeed. I know a couple of kiwis who got a right serve of verbal abuse from Irish fans after Cardiff 2007.

I think nz fans have much improved over the years.

Did anyone post the story about the lions lad who was given food and board at the Ioane house? That was great.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/06/25/meet-lions-fan-slept-blacks-hero-hour-rieko-ioanes-floor/

Two professional rugby players, one an AB and the other a Maori AB still living at home with their parents and sharing a bedroom is mad.

Bazzo · 25-06-2017 01:56PM

Damian McKenzie has been called up to replace Ben Smith. I know he didn't look great shakes playing 10 for the Maori but he's a serious fullback, doubt he'll make the team without injuries though.

swiwi_ · 25-06-2017 01:56PM

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/06/25/meet-lions-fan-slept-blacks-hero-hour-rieko-ioanes-floor/

Two professional rugby players, one an AB and the other a Maori AB still living at home with their parents.

You'd swear they were Irish

swiwi_ · 25-06-2017 02:03PM

Bazzo wrote: »

Damian McKenzie has been called up to replace Ben Smith. I know he didn't look great shakes playing 10 for the Maori but he's a serious fullback, doubt he'll make the team without injuries though.

I doubt he plays. The options seem to be

Dagg
Barrett
Barrett Jnr
(McKenzie)

I woundnt mind seeing Naholo at 14 myself with Dagg at 15, but Dagg has been an inspired choice at 14 after looking awful there for the Crusaders a couple of seasons back.

wonderfullife · 25-06-2017 02:10PM

Jeremy Guscott writing in his usual BBC column is suggesting CJ Stander should be on the bench with Warburton omitted completely from the 23.

Buer · 25-06-2017 02:37PM

The selection for the Hurricanes game suggests that there will be minimal changes to the 23. Kruis is potentially in trouble with possibly Lawes or Henderson coming in.

Aside from that, if Gatland was going to drop someone like Warburton from the 23, he'd be featuring on Tuesday having only played 25 minutes yesterday.

I just don't see the coaches planning to drop any of the subs from the 23 but deciding they're not going to be involved in any capacity on Tuesday. So I would imagine that all of the bench players from yesterday will be selected for the second test but a few of them could move into the starting side.

I'd imagine it's more likely that a guy who started yesterday could fall out of the 23 entirely. Daly springs to mind. He's very fortunate to have even started yesterday given how his tour has been and the more I see that first try, the worse it gets.

Falling asleep like that in a Lions test is not something that should be forgiven.

Buer · 25-06-2017 02:49PM

My other unforgivable moment from the Lions.

25-06-2017 02:50PM

Buer wrote: »

My other unforgivable moment from the Lions.

Still amazes me that professional rugby players are clueless with the basics.

irishbucsfan · 25-06-2017 02:52PM

Basil3 wrote: »

Every country has d*ckheads.

As I said, read the thread. It sounds like it was a very uncomfortable and tense atmosphere. Could be Lions fans were at fault for that for all I know. I'm saying it's sad to hear given people have gone so far and it's such a rare occasion.

AbusesToilets · 25-06-2017 03:02PM

Buer wrote: »

The selection for the Hurricanes game suggests that there will be minimal changes to the 23. Kruis is potentially in trouble with possibly Lawes or Henderson coming in.

Aside from that, if Gatland was going to drop someone like Warburton from the 23, he'd be featuring on Tuesday having only played 25 minutes yesterday.

I just don't see the coaches planning to drop any of the subs from the 23 but deciding they're not going to be involved in any capacity on Tuesday. So I would imagine that all of the bench players from yesterday will be selected for the second test but a few of them could move into the starting side.

I'd imagine it's more likely that a guy who started yesterday could fall out of the 23 entirely. Daly springs to mind. He's very fortunate to have even started yesterday given how his tour has been and the more I see that first try, the worse it gets.

Falling asleep like that in a Lions test is not something that should be forgiven.

Payne really blew his chance this tour. He should have been on the bench at least, given his ability and performances for Ireland. FB was there for the taking, a spot in the centers not beyond the realm of possibility either. Sexton aside, he has been the biggest let down for me from an Irish perspective.

Buer · 25-06-2017 03:07PM

Basil3 wrote: »

Still amazes me that professional rugby players are clueless with the basics.

And that's it. The basics. I know Te'o is not a distributor and is a rugby league convert. But that's a pass under no pressure to a receiver in plenty of space. An AIL player could throw it. That to me isn't a failure of skill levels but a failure of decision making.

It doesn't need to be a bullet pass or anything special. Just straighten a little and fling it out. Hell, I'm not sure he even needed to straighten if SOB could have taken it and drawn the last defender properly before releasing Faletau.

If that goes through the hands, Faletau is in and the Lions are ahead with all the momentum. Brutal stuff.

The Lions could have made a real game of it into the closing stages if they simply tightened up 3 or 4 big errors in the first hour. They fell asleep at a penalty. Then they got badly done at a scrum and the back three fell asleep again, expecting the whistle to go. Watson had come so far in field that he had three NZ players outside him.

.ak · 25-06-2017 03:08PM

Dunno how Sexton is a let down... one "poor" game in the opening weekend along with everyone else, aside from that he's been the best 10 on tour, but he's up against a really good operator who's also in great form.

Also Payne has had some good showings, which is more than I can say for Henshaw.

bilston · 25-06-2017 03:27PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Fairly sad to read this thread on twitter, seems it was not a nice atmosphere at the game last night for some.

https://twitter.com/alandymock/status/878810113099694080

Every village has its idiot.

bilston · 25-06-2017 03:27PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Fairly sad to read this thread on twitter, seems it was not a nice atmosphere at the game last night for some.

https://twitter.com/alandymock/status/878810113099694080

Every village has its idiot.

AbusesToilets · 25-06-2017 03:29PM

.ak wrote: »

Dunno how Sexton is a let down... one "poor" game in the opening weekend along with everyone else, aside from that he's been the best 10 on tour, but he's up against a really good operator who's also in great form.

Also Payne has had some good showings, which is more than I can say for Henshaw.

Payne played very well in parts, but has had some real howlers that are bound to stick in the mind of the coaches. Probably dropped more balls in the past 2 weeks than I've seen him do for years.

To my mind, his one on one tackling alone should have put him in the FB spot, but he probably needed to show more of his attacking game, which he hasn't.

bilston · 25-06-2017 03:30PM

Former Former wrote: »

Halfpenny will come in with Williams shifting to the wing ahead of Daly.

Kruis benching on Tuesday suggests Itoje will start the test.

Beyond that, I don't see many changes.

That's pretty much how I would see it. Kruis didnt have a good game at all, and I reckon is far more vulnerable than AWJ.

On the back three, a big game from North against a brilliant Hurricanes back three could throw him into contention again. But moving Williams to the wing and getting the solidity of Halfpenny at 15 seems a good compromise. But either way I'd keep Williams in the XV.

Sephiral · 25-06-2017 03:32PM

Just rewatched after watching in a state yesterday morning. Really disappointing how poor the lions were in the physical stakes. Hard to point the finger at any one player, seemed more of a collective malaise. Lots of possible changes, but I don't think Gatland will make many.

Not sure any changes in the front row would improve things except possible Best to start and George to bench. Vunipola and Furlong probably still better than their alternatives. Second row was badly exposed against their opposite numbers. AWJ simply did not have the engine for that game and should drop out of the 23. I'd favour Itoje-Kruis with Henderson benching; Kruis lucky to retain spot on past showings. Back row was outclassed really. Billy Vunipola is proving to be a huge miss. SOB was excellent, POM and Faletau weren't really competitive. I think Warburton will start in place of POM with Stander on the bench.

Murray was good, but his style seemed a bit off what the rest of the team was doing. The wingers are not kickchasers so his excellent kicking was not as useful as it should have been. As an aside, Murray was clearly targetted for late hits after kicks, his ref and his pack should have done more to protect him. Beauden Barrett going to full back made the ABs more secure in the air. Farrell was anonymous and should drop out for Sexton. No point shunting him to 12 when it has not been properly bedded in.

Centres went okay individually, Teo'o stronger in defence and Davies looking dangerous with ball in hand. But as a combination, they really limit the backline. Teo'o butchered one simple overlap and Davies seems unable to fix a man and release the ball when he gets the chance (like all the Lions frankly). One or the other should drop out, but not sure that any of the other options could fit in. Henshaw/Payne have not shown enough on tour. JJ is too much of a chance to take defensively. Not taking one of the Scots or Ringrose looks a mistake in retrospect.

Williams was outstanding with ball in hand and has to keep his place. I wouldn't put too much stock on the drop for the last try; the lions were a tired and beaten team by then. Watson got very little, but in space, he is lethal. Daly drops out. He was caught for two tries, with the first one being particularly egregious. He was too narrow, and still took a step inside instead of trusting his man. Daly is a great footballer, but I don't think he is a wing.

Changes I'd make:
Best for George, Owens gone from bench.
Itoje for AWJ, Henderson to bench.
Warburton for POM, Stander to bench.
Sexton starting instead of Farrell.
Payne for either Teo'o or Davies.
Daly dropping out for whichever winger shows up best.

I'd expect AWJ, Warburton and Sexton to swap for their bench options and North to come in for Daly though.

On the ABs side, their front five will be delighted after all the talk of Lions dominance. Retallick is something else altogether. Their back row were great. Kaino carried well, Cane was everywhere and Read hit is normal high standards. I didn't actually think their half backs were anything great, but as a team they were clever in forcing the lions to play from deep and boxkick when they couldn't punch holes. Sonny Bill was physical. They actually didn't spin the ball wide that often, but when they did, it was the right call. Dagg was uber secure and Reiko Ioane managed to justify the dropping of Julian Savea. Generally, it was their high skill level that really won out. The ability to offload in contact, fix men and be canny at the breakdown were the difference.

bilston · 25-06-2017 03:34PM

Buer wrote: »

The selection for the Hurricanes game suggests that there will be minimal changes to the 23. Kruis is potentially in trouble with possibly Lawes or Henderson coming in.

Aside from that, if Gatland was going to drop someone like Warburton from the 23, he'd be featuring on Tuesday having only played 25 minutes yesterday.

I just don't see the coaches planning to drop any of the subs from the 23 but deciding they're not going to be involved in any capacity on Tuesday. So I would imagine that all of the bench players from yesterday will be selected for the second test but a few of them could move into the starting side.

I'd imagine it's more likely that a guy who started yesterday could fall out of the 23 entirely. Daly springs to mind. He's very fortunate to have even started yesterday given how his tour has been and the more I see that first try, the worse it gets.

Falling asleep like that in a Lions test is not something that should be forgiven.

Daly was definitely in no mans land and I'm surprised he hasn't been criticised in the media for it.

That said look inside him and then look inside Te'o, there is a queue of Lions just marking nobody. That's terrible.

bilston · 25-06-2017 03:36PM

Buer wrote: »

My other unforgivable moment from the Lions.

Might have worked out differently if Te'o doesn't slip, but that is basically a 3 on 2. You have to take those chances to beat the ABs. To be honest you'd be fairly annoyed if a club 3rds didn't take a 3 on 2 never mind the Lions.

ScissorPaperRock · 25-06-2017 03:53PM

bilston wrote: »

Might have worked out differently if Te'o doesn't slip, but that is basically a 3 on 2. You have to take those chances to beat the ABs. To be honest you'd be fairly annoyed if a club 3rds didn't take a 3 on 2 never mind the Lions.

Yeah, but he only slips as he attempts to step inside, which means he wasn't going to try and take advantage of that overlap/space.

Buer · 25-06-2017 03:56PM

bilston wrote:

Might have worked out differently if Te'o doesn't slip.

He slipped because he cut back trying to have a go on his own.

Neil3030 · 25-06-2017 04:02PM

Reddan had some very good analysis on OTB for anyone who hasn't heard. Basic idea is that the ABs did their homework on our set-piece, particularly the maul. They also had a plan ready for our defensive system, using a lot of one-out runners, or one-out followed by a pass back inside to attack the inside edge of the blitz.

http://www.newstalk.com/player/embed.php?mediaType=podcast&id=197352

bilston · 25-06-2017 05:40PM

Buer wrote: »

bilston wrote:

Might have worked out differently if Te'o doesn't slip.

He slipped because he cut back trying to have a go on his own.

I meant if he hadn't slipped he might have broken through or the Lions might have recycled it quickly and then who knows. But yeah it was a bad missed opportunity by Te'o.

CurryFlavoured · 25-06-2017 05:44PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Payne really blew his chance this tour. He should have been on the bench at least, given his ability and performances for Ireland. FB was there for the taking, a spot in the centers not beyond the realm of possibility either. Sexton aside, he has been the biggest let down for me from an Irish perspective.

Thought Payne was one of the best players on the pitch his last game (think it was vs Chiefs).

I can't remember his other performances off hand, but it's a pity him or Henshaw haven't stood out more. They're no superstars, but compared to what we're starting they have an ability to pass the ball. Particularly Payne, who I think is a bit underrated, is a very well rounded player. He was brought as backup though and would've needed to really stand out to play more than that role.

Bazzo · 26-06-2017 08:01AM

Warren Gatland wrote:

I think someone like Maro Itoje made an impact coming off the bench and was very physical. I thought Sam Warburton was excellent as well at the breakdown when he came on.

So I'd expect Itoje and Warburton to start. I'd bet it's Kruis that'll lose out, which he can't really complain about (but at the same time not sure AWJ should have been there in the first place) but I'd say Gatland is in a very small group of people who think Warburton has done anything to deserve a start, or a bench spot for that matter.

Buer · 26-06-2017 08:12AM

The Independent and IT both reporting this morning that POM is set to be one of the fall guys for the second test with Warburton coming in to the team.

Harsh on POM but it makes sense. Warburton is the superior breakdown player and that was a problem for the Lions. I'd be concerned about losing out at the line out though. Itoje will have to come in and I'm not sure if AWJ is retained either. I'd bring Lawes straight in given his athleticism and aggression/borderline illegality.

If POM is dropped, there's a big question mark over whether it's from the starting side or the 23. He isn't a massive bench player and that area could be better served by Stander or Tipuric who is being completely overlooked by many.

I'm going to guess the front row survives in tact which is somewhat fortunate for Furlong who really needs to step up his performance levels after a very underwhelming opening test showing.

Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

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