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Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

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Comments

  • #482
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #483
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    markodaly wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    To be fair, there is a small handful of us advancing a moderate viewpoint, and a whole lot of you guys with stridently anti-traveller views.

    If there was anything ambiguous in my reply to you, then why don't you pull me up on that? You're not responsible for policing this thread, no more than I am.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    You may be scoring points with the scarcely literate, Permabear; but those of us who have respected you for your intelligent posts, even when we disagreed with you, will feel pretty short-changed by such an easy, cheap shot.


  • #484
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #485
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Well yeah, in recent posts, I felt as though you were asking some pertinent and intelligent questions. But then you began this "the Joyces will bate [sic] them all" tone, and .... what can I say? My hope for some intelligent dialogue was dashed.


  • #486
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,313 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    To be fair, there is a small handful of us advancing a moderate viewpoint, and a whole lot of you guys with stridently anti-traveller views.

    Bringing out Karl Marx and Das Kaptial in relation to traveller relations with the 'settled' community is to be honest is a faux argument trying to pass off as intelligent and moderate, when all it is, is being contrarian to the point of boredom.

    If there was anything ambiguous in my reply to you, then why don't you pull me up on that? You're not responsible for policing this thread, no more than I am.

    True, but I can also say your are talking in circles at this stage and no one really has a notion what your salient point is anymore. You can accept my point or not. I don't really mind as I feel it wont be long now till you will be arguing in an empty room.
    You may be scoring points with the scarcely literate, Permabear; but those of us who have respected you for your intelligent posts, even when we disagreed with you, will feel pretty short-changed by such an easy, cheap shot.

    This is AH after all, you left yourself open with your philosophical and Marxist take on traveller relations with the settled community, sometimes all one has is humour to take down so nonsensical arguments.


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  • #487
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,313 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    ? My hope for some intelligent dialogue was dashed.

    Speaking of intelligent, weren't you on another thread defending the North Korea regime and called all space images of its under development fake?

    I just think that your just an uber contrarian, which is fine by the way but makes these debates somewhat tedious.


  • #488
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I just think that your just an uber contrarian, which is fine by the way but makes these debates somewhat tedious.[/quote]

    +1 you hit the nail on the head


  • #489
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Anyone in for a crowd funder?
    I'll knock up a few Jim Fitzpatrick 'Che' style t-shirts of Big Joe Joyce...


  • #490
    benjamin d
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 921 ✭✭✭benjamin d


    Did tyrant get replaced by a character from a JD Salinger novel overnight?

    Why have you started writing in that loquacious faux-intelligent way? You're not coming across as smart for having started it, you come across as a fedora-wearing M'lady type with a misplaced sense of superiority. A misplaced sense of superiority that you've been trying to use to condasecend to travellers this whole thread and now you're doing it to the rest of us in the thread.

    "BINGO! Finally, a perceptive and intelligent contributor to the thread" from a few posts up exposes your real feelings. Not only do you think you're superior to travellers and black people, you're superior to everyone else too. Enjoy your basement.


  • #491
    I love Sean nos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭I love Sean nos


    There's no way I'm reading all that, OP. Is there a summary of this whingefest available?


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  • #492
    Zayden Dirty Transition
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭ Zayden Dirty Transition


    I love Sean nos wrote: »
    There's no way I'm reading all that, OP. Is there a summary of this whingefest available?

    It's all settled people's fault apparently


  • #493
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    I love Sean nos wrote: »
    There's no way I'm reading all that, OP. Is there a summary of this whingefest available?

    This is all the summary you need.

    When you know someone is thieving all the time - best thing to do is just not mention it, because em, I'm actually not quite sure but Karl Marx was involved....rolleyes.png
    user_online.pngreport.gif progress.gif


  • #494
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I love Sean nos wrote: »
    There's no way I'm reading all that, OP. Is there a summary of this whingefest available?

    Girl gets picked on, ostracised and bullied from the age of 4. It drives her 11 year old brother to suicide.

    People say it's because others in her ethnic group are bad people, so she and her brother just have to put up with it.

    The plan seems to be that with enough bullying and suicides, they will learn to love us and our private property and litter laws, and send the kids to the source of much of the bullying and alienation, our schools.


  • #495
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    benjamin d wrote: »
    ...a fedora-wearing M'lady type with a misplaced sense of superiority...

    Not saying for one minute it's apt...but as a description of a certain type, hands up, that's funny!


  • #496
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,316 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Yes, my analysis of the problem is from a Marxist perspective,
    ... That busted flush of a half baked circling it's own fundament of pretentiousness beloved of right on students philosophy? Explains much.
    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Perhaps your uncertaintly has arisen from your inability to understand what I wrote, in plain english?

    ----
    unexcogitable
    . :pac:

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #497
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Girl gets picked on, ostracised and bullied from the age of 4. It drives her 11 year old brother to suicide.

    People say it's because others in her ethnic group are bad people, so she and her brother just have to put up with it.

    The plan seems to be that with enough bullying and suicides, they will learn to love us and our private property and litter laws, and send the kids to the source of much of the bullying and alienation, our schools.

    Is tghis the girl in the op you are referring to? She seemed to do alright with her 12 A's in the Junior Cert didn't she?


  • #498
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Girl gets picked on, ostracised and bullied from the age of 4. It drives her 11 year old brother to suicide.

    People say it's because others in her ethnic group are bad people, so she and her brother just have to put up with it.

    The plan seems to be that with enough bullying and suicides, they will learn to love us and our private property and litter laws, and send the kids to the source of much of the bullying and alienation, our schools.

    Not for one minute do I condone what was done to the little girl. We know nothing of the circumstances that led to the situation, yet I can understand how it happened.

    However another plan seens to be with enough pandering, indulgence and the provision of sufficient culturally appropriate accomdation, some form of cultural reformation will occur, and travellers will become incentivised to respect law and order, private property, to stop beating the sh1te out of each other, and leave vulnerable ethnically different rural people alone. The "bullying" travellers experience is commensurate with their "bullying" of other ethnicities, usually accompanied by physical threats and/or actual violence. They're not some delicate and fragile ethnic minority, whose very existence is under threat.(In fact, if their population is increasing). While not the sole architects of their predicament, they're doing nothing to mitigate it, only deflect and demand.

    Was is it they want?
    Education? Fair enough. I think it's the solution. There's scope for improvement by both sides to address this deficiency
    Jobs? There's limited jobs that are amenable to a travelling lifestyle. 84% seem unable to achieve it.
    House? Within reason, but treated as everyone else not treated differently in certain circumstances to provide a more favourable outcome.
    Respect of culture? What even is traveller culture any more.

    A house here, but a place over there and there as well for when they want to travel? A green area for their horses? Tax payer to pay for their waste collection?
    Fcuk off lads


  • #499
    arctictree
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭arctictree


    We have a few travellers on our various GAA teams in the club. I don't know what it is but once they hit the pitch for training or a match, they seem to be completely different. There is no back chat and they do exactly what they are told. Maybe its because they are under peer pressure to perform or are afraid of the wrath of the coach!


  • #500
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    Is tghis the girl in the op you are referring to? She seemed to do alright with her 12 A's in the Junior Cert didn't she?

    She did very well.

    But that's surely not a defence of the treatment she and her brother received...is it?


  • #501
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Not for one minute do I condone what was done to the little girl. We know nothing of the circumstances that led to the situation, yet I can understand how it happened.

    You can understand why a child is bullied, ostracised and alienated, to the point where a mother is driven to tears.

    You can then surely understand their failure to reciprocate with respect.


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  • #502
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    unexcogitable

    I am going to make it my business to shoe horn this into a conversation this weekend:D
    progress.gif


  • #503
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    You can understand why a child is bullied, ostracised and alienated, to the point where a mother is driven to tears.

    You can then surely understand their failure to reciprocate with respect.


    All I hear is "settled people's fault", absolving travellers of any responsibility for their status or behaviour.
    "the band is marching out of step with my Johnny" mentality


  • #504
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    All I hear is "settled people's fault", absolving travellers of any responsibility for their status or behaviour.
    "the band is marching out of step with my Johnny" mentality

    I'd say if you read back through posts here, you'll find much more of the "all the traveller's fault" than posters suggesting it is all the fault of "settled people". As regards the author of the piece in the OP and her experiences as a child, well they are the fault of those who meted that disgraceful treatment out to her.


  • #505
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    markodaly wrote: »
    Speaking of intelligent, weren't you on another thread defending the North Korea regime and called all space images of its under development fake?
    I'm not getting into this here, I just want to repeat (although I said it in practically every post, and I'll say it again) that I wasn't defending the North Korean regime, which is a brutal dictatorship.

    I also clarified that the images were misleading, since they appear to reflect power outages at night-time, not an absence of electricity. Can we stick to discussing travellers now, please?
    Novalee Tangy Phlegm wrote: »
    It's all settled people's fault apparently
    Who on the thread said that? I've repeatedly said it isn't simply the fault of either the settled community or of the Government.

    It doesn't matter what anybody says, because people who are anti-traveller are always going to read this thread in a way that suits their agenda.

    As soon as the thread began, people started crying about "liberals" "defending the traveller culture". But literally nobody has done that, liberal or otherwise.

    And throughout the thread, people have also been rolling their eyes and saying "it's all the settled people's fault, apparently", when again, literally nobody here said so.

    Your arguments are so weak that you guys are ignoring the substance of the OP, and are choosing instead to invent arguments, and invent scenarios.

    For example, when someone referenced the 4-year-old traveller girl who was turned away from a party, someone said "Oh maybe they just didn't want her drunken father showing up, causing trouble". That poster just plucked from thin air this excuse of a drunken father!

    I was about to say 'you can't make this shit up', but you guys are literally making this shit up.

    Van Neuman Paradox wrote: »
    Travelers behave like anti social animals and then wonder why we hate them.
    A recurrent theme on this thread is the dehumanisation of travellers. There have been a few references to travellers and "animals" and to their "breeding" habits, and one person has even suggested that they are incompatible with society.

    But still, you guys will go along with this daft notion that it's all their fault, and we as settled people don't contribute to the problem.


  • #506
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    All I hear is "settled people's fault", absolving travellers of any responsibility for their status or behaviour.
    Where?

    Where did you read that in this thread?


  • #507
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I'd say if you read back through posts here, you'll find much more of the "all the traveller's fault" than posters suggesting it is all the fault of "settled people". As regards the author of the piece in the OP and her experiences as a child, well they are the fault of those who meted that disgraceful treatment out to her.

    So we're polarised?

    Her treatment was wrong.
    But as I've said, I can understand how it came about. All we get from you is the stock zero traveller responsibility for their predicament, It's all settled people's fault.
    Like a broken record. Of course settled people have contributed, but there's an avoidance by some to even contemplate that travellers themselves are a contributory factor.

    Until both sides recognise their part in a "conflict", a negotiated satisfactory outcome is impossible. One sided unreasonable demands and a failure to address the inherent behavioural root causes of the conflict have failed thus far.

    Forced education of kids until 16 in school forced to take them that are sanctioned if they don't comply is one way forward. Biometric social welfare payments (for everyone) that will curtail their ability to leech off the state and incentivise them into working for a living like the rest of us. Traveller owned halting sites that would require them to maintain them.

    My advice to my kids is avoid them. Do I tell my kids to avoid Syrians, Nigerians, Dubs, Scousers? No, because of experience. These people (even Dubs) have something positive to contribute to society. My experience, while some are negative, are predominantly positive.

    Travellers aren't ostracised because they are different, they are ostracised because the people they are accusing of intolerance and bigotry have had predominantly negative experiences with them.


  • #508
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    benjamin d wrote: »

    Why have you started writing in that loquacious faux-intelligent way? You're not coming across as smart for having started it, you come across as a fedora-wearing M'lady type with a misplaced sense of superiority

    I convinced myself that I wasn't going to bother getting involved in this thread but I burst out laughing when I read that!


  • #509
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I love Sean nos wrote: »
    :confused:
    I have no idea what he's trying to do. He posted the same thing in the Radio forum after I posted there.

    Odd behaviour.


  • #510
    benjamin d
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 921 ✭✭✭benjamin d


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Where?

    Where did you read that in this thread?

    There's been a bucketload of "well settled people need to..." whataboutery in response to any suggestion that travellers should face their problems head on here.
    Settled people have provided the social infrastructure for every member of society to fulfil their potential and break the self-imposed chains of their ancestry.
    A common lament of travellers is that they didn't get an education, they never had the chance. This line is often repeated on traveller documentaries and in traveller studies carried out by various organisations. The report mentioned early in the thread has numerous quotes along those lines from traveller prisoners. It's tragic and no one here would deny that or say that it was the fault of an individual traveller when they were a child.
    HOWEVER, since it is such a common complaint from travellers, and it is recognised as one of the major roadblocks to achievement among travellers, why on earth are traveller parents STILL not arsed about sending their kids to school? Why is this cultural anomaly not stamped out?
    We have financial incentives in the form of welfare mechanisms and legal provisions to enforce childhood education. The pieces are all there. It's up to travellers to put the puzzle together now.


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  • #511
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,514 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    I have no idea what he's trying to do. He posted the same thing in the Radio forum after I posted there.

    Odd behaviour.

    he's trying to bate you i reccan.
    benjamin d wrote: »
    There's been a bucketload of "well settled people need to..." whataboutery in response to any suggestion that travellers should face their problems head on here.
    Settled people have provided the social infrastructure for every member of society to fulfil their potential and break the self-imposed chains of their ancestry.
    A common lament of travellers is that they didn't get an education, they never had the chance. This line is often repeated on traveller documentaries and in traveller studies carried out by various organisations. The report mentioned early in the thread has numerous quotes along those lines from traveller prisoners. It's tragic and no one here would deny that or say that it was the fault of an individual traveller when they were a child.
    HOWEVER, since it is such a common complaint from travellers, and it is recognised as one of the major roadblocks to achievement among travellers, why on earth are traveller parents STILL not arsed about sending their kids to school? Why is this cultural anomaly not stamped out?
    We have financial incentives in the form of welfare mechanisms and legal provisions to enforce childhood education. The pieces are all there. It's up to travellers to put the puzzle together now.

    so, essentially you read no such thing in this thread? i'm glad we got that sorted.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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