Solo (young Han Solo film) spoilers from post 1493

david75 · 22-06-2017 11:44AM

Tony EH wrote: »

Umm...if I'm correct as to the reasons why L+M got the boot, then Kennedy and Kasdan are absolutely correct to halt things and sort it out.

But, the real question is why Lord and Miller were hired to do the film in the first place? It's not like they don't have a particular stamp on their previous work. What did they think they were going to bring to the table? Even I could see that they were completely wrong for any kind of Star Wars project, so why couldn't Disney execs? Did Kennedy just hope that she could simply force her way?

If were either of them, I'd feel pretty hard done by and certainly fight my corner.

It would be like hiring Terry Gilliam to direct Episode IX and complaining that the film was too like 'Brazil' or 'Time Bandits'.

Well that's been reported on already. They were taking far too many liberties with the script and improvising. One quote I read was 'they should have followed Edwards idea of doing one hour of improvisational filming a day. Rather than doing the whole thing improv'.

They basically were going off the map. All the time. You can do that with a Lego movie I s it works for great comedy. You can't do that in a Star Wars film with an established tone and structure. And you shouldn't do it either. Flying by the seat of the pants on a $200 million project belonging to the the biggest film franchise in the world. You won't be allowed do that all the time.

In those lights it's easy to see why KK had to call a halt to it. And she's right.

Mickeroo · 22-06-2017 12:05PM

I don't think it's a good thing. Gone are the days of being excited when an up and coming director gets a job on a big blockbuster property off the back of successful personal projects.

I'd much rather a director gets to put their own stamp on a film (and these stand alone star wars films were the perfect opportunity to do that). Obviously I didn't expect that this would actually happen with the Star Wars films, it's clear as day studios only hire directors like this as they won't have the clout to stand up to the studio and this isn't the only franchise it happens on and the issue here was the directors weren't happy with it.

Sad Professor · 22-06-2017 12:08PM

It should be pointed out that Kasdan is really a director at heart and has always had issues with how other directors interpret his work. He had big issues with the changes Kershner and Spielberg made to his scripts as well. Kershner and the actors practically re-wrote Empire on set. And Spielberg is always improvising. I remember a frank interview with Kasdan years ago in which he more or less said he didn't really like Raiders and complained about Spielberg's slap stick improvisations (the mirror scene, etc). Of course, these days he calls them both geniuses so he probably got over it, but my point is this isn't anything new from him. But I also think he's smart enough to know this himself, which I why I think the studio might be over-emphasising how involved he was in Lord and Miller's departure.

Tony EH · 22-06-2017 12:40PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

I'd much rather a director gets to put their own stamp on a film (and these stand alone star wars films were the perfect opportunity to do that).

It depends on the film or franchise they revolved around. Personally, I would have liked to have seen David Lynch's 'Return of the Jedi'. :pac:

Star Wars, though, has a particular look and feel about it. A kind of loose house style guide that you wander too far from at your peril.

Lord and Miller also have particular style, this modern kind of meta, tongue-in-cheek, nod and wink non film where nothing of consequence happens and there's no real drama to be found.

That doesn't belong anywhere near a Star Wars film.

Tony EH · 22-06-2017 12:44PM

Sad Professor wrote: »

It should be pointed out that Kasdan is really a director at heart and has always had issues with how other directors interpret his work. He had big issues with the changes Kershner and Spielberg made to his scripts as well. Kershner and the actors practically re-wrote Empire on set. And Spielberg is always improvising. I remember a frank interview with Kasdan years ago in which he more or less said he didn't really like Raiders and complained about Spielberg's slap stick improvisations (the mirror scene, etc). Of course, these days he calls them both geniuses so he probably got over it, but my point is this isn't anything new from him. But I also think he's smart enough to know this himself, which I why I think the studio might be over-emphasising how involved he was in Lord and Miller's departure.

There's no doubt in my mind that Kasdan is a bit Barton Fink, but I'd go with him more often than not. I still think his mark on Star Wars is a bit overestimated.

However, he's right about that mirror scene. It's stupid.

Sad Professor · 22-06-2017 12:57PM

Tony EH wrote: »

It depends on the film or franchise they revolved around. Personally, I would have liked to have seen David Lynch's 'Return of the Jedi'. :pac:

Star Wars, though, has a particular look and feel about it. A kind of loose house style guide that you wander too far from at your peril.

Lord and Miller also have particular style, this modern kind of meta, tongue-in-cheek, nod and wink non film where nothing of consequence happens and there's no real drama to be found.

That doesn't belong anywhere near a Star Wars film.

This is probably what Variety meant by "culture clash", which the generational gap between Kasdan/Kennedy and Lord/Miller would have only added to. Johnson and Abrams got along great with them, but they are a bit older and probably a bit fogeyish.

Tony EH · 22-06-2017 01:19PM

"Fogeyish" or not, Kennedy has to make good on the return of Disney's billions that they forked out to Lucas. That's the reason why 'The Force Awakens' was little more than a bland riff on the original 'Star Wars' and why she didn't want everybody dying on a beach, Normandy style, in 'Rogue One'.

Disney find risk abhorrent and there's too much riding on this just to let anybody do anything they want.

The thing is, just don't hire people like Lord and Miller. You pretty much know what you're going to get.

david75 · 22-06-2017 02:27PM

That was quick. How boring

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/heat-vision/star-wars-han-solo-movie-ron-howard-steps-direct-1015674

david75 · 22-06-2017 02:32PM

Though I reckon she had someone lined up before she fired them to make it a speedy handover and keep the ball rolling.

Tony EH · 22-06-2017 02:36PM

I'd say that was well sorted before today. They were probably on the blower to him last month.

fluke · 22-06-2017 03:05PM

david75 wrote: »

That was quick. How boring

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/heat-vision/star-wars-han-solo-movie-ron-howard-steps-direct-1015674

Happy Days

FunLover18 · 22-06-2017 03:14PM

Sad Professor wrote:

I still think Lord and Miller were digging their heels in big time. According to Variety, they felt they had "earned their stripes", an attitude which if true won't do their reputation any favours.

Sorry but this wording really bothers me and I know it's not yours Prof, but as you said it doesn't do them any service and makes it sound like they haven't actually "earned their stripes" when in truth they've directed three massively successful movies, both critically and financially, with the Lego movie and the two Jump Street films, which are also original and of a very high quality. Not to mention Cloudy which was also a success, albeit not on the same scale. I don't know what "stripes" they're supposed to have thought they earned but Disney and KK were clearly impressed or they wouldn't have been hired. This isn't a Josh Trank situation where he was plucked from relative obscurity for a big budget film and then threw his toys out of the pram when he didn't get his way, L&M are proven directors with a track record.

Sad Professor · 22-06-2017 03:37PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

Sorry but this wording really bothers me and I know it's not yours Prof, but as you said it doesn't do them any service and makes it sound like they haven't actually "earned their stripes" when in truth they've directed three massively successful movies, both critically and financially, with the Lego movie and the two Jump Street films, which are also original and of a very high quality. Not to mention Cloudy which was also a success, albeit not on the same scale. I don't know what "stripes" they're supposed to have thought they earned but Disney and KK were clearly impressed or they wouldn't have been hired. This isn't a Josh Trank situation where he was plucked from relative obscurity for a big budget film and then threw his toys out of the pram when he didn't get his way, L&M are proven directors with a track record.

I agree but the reality is that directors working at this level have to prove themselves every time. Look at Joss Whedon. The fact that he had made the first Avengers meant nothing, Marvel walked all over him. Now he's taking pay check jobs filling in for Zack Snyder presumedly to win brownie points with WB so they take it easy on him on Batgirl. Directors of these cinematic universe movies are hired hands, like tv directors. I also wouldn't overstate their prior success. The Lego Movie and 21 Jump Street were both based on preexisting properties. From a studio execs viewpoints, they would have made millions anyway.

This is all speculation of course. We don't know what happened with Lord & Miller. Maybe they tried to give the studio what they wanted but it still wasn't good enough. It's just a very unusual situation.

thegreengoblin · 22-06-2017 04:26PM

david75 wrote: »

Welll let's also look at L&M's statement which basically seems amicable enough and says 'creative differences' so it's not like they're gonna go to war with LFL / Disney over it.

It will be interesting to see how it's credited and where their cut of the cheese for the work they did both in credit and monetary return goes.

I'd say there's a compensation package written into the fine print when they signed on 'in case of' clause kinda thing.

I suppose it has to be amicable really. You can be sure Disney would have insisted on an agreement that no one starts moaning or bitching, certainly until well after the film is released. They have a product to market and no one is going to get in the way of that, whatever their grievances are. The last thing Disney want is a black cloud hanging over a Star Wars film.

What a mess though. You have to laugh at Ron Howard taking over. From such a big gamble with Lord and Miller to the safest pair of hands they could get!

david75 · 22-06-2017 05:44PM

More details...

"Apparently, the split was a subtle one that became magnified over time: Lucasfilm and producer Kennedy believed Lord and Miller were hired to add a comedic touch; Lord and Miller believed they were hired to make a comedy."

That's a helluva miscommunication. I mean Han is one of the funniest members of the OT but funny one liners is one thing. They seemed to be making it into an all out comedy. That is another thing altogether

http://ew.com/movies/2017/06/22/ron-howard-takes-over-directing-duties-on-han-solo-film/

david75 · 22-06-2017 06:06PM

I believe all of that

Tony EH · 22-06-2017 06:08PM

Thank christ they're gone. That would have been bloody awful. Wrong movie, wrong people.

Hopefully, Ronnie can salvage something out of it, but I reckon this is the first Star Wars film that I won't be bothering to watch in a cinema, if I bother watching it at all.

Sad Professor · 22-06-2017 06:24PM

david75 wrote: »

More details...

"Apparently, the split was a subtle one that became magnified over time: Lucasfilm and producer Kennedy believed Lord and Miller were hired to add a comedic touch; Lord and Miller believed they were hired to make a comedy."

That's a helluva miscommunication. I mean Han is one of the funniest members of the OT but funny one liners is one thing. They seemed to be making it into an all out comedy. That is another thing altogether

http://ew.com/movies/2017/06/22/ron-howard-takes-over-directing-duties-on-han-solo-film/

If that article is true, it seems I was right about them digging their heels in and the inevitably of reshoots emboldening Disney/Kennedy to take drastic action.

Reshoots were always possible (they are factored into almost every major film these days, and each new Star Wars project has undergone them), but as Lord and Miller dug in, refusing to compromise on what they saw as best for the film, the partnership went from strained to fractured. If they wouldn’t do the scenes as Lucasfilm and Kennedy wanted them now, why would they do them that way during reshoots?
[...]
They became immovable objects. If the filmmakers were refusing to make the movie Lucasfilm expected, why continue?

I feel bad them for them both. They were obviously doing what they were good at and what they assumed they had been hired to do. What sort of weird hybrid of theirs and Howard's sensibilities are we going to end up with now?

Falthyron · 22-06-2017 06:46PM

Sad Professor wrote: »

What sort of weird hybrid of theirs and Howard's sensibilities are we going to end up with now?

Tony EH · 22-06-2017 07:59PM

Sad Professor wrote: »

They were obviously doing what they were good at and what they assumed they had been hired to do.

How could anybody who's even remotely familiar with the series think that a comedy was what Star Wars fans would want to see?

Expecially one that features the most loved character in the entire franchise?

A Star Wars comedy would have killed everything stone dead. It would have been a fat disaster for Disney. I can see the interweb outrage as I type!

What an incredible lack of communication there must have been between each person involved here. It's quite astonishing really.

Sad Professor · 22-06-2017 08:53PM

Tony EH wrote: »

How could anybody who's even remotely familiar with the series think that a comedy was what Star Wars fans would want to see?

Expecially one that features the most loved character in the entire franchise?

A Star Wars comedy would have killed everything stone dead. It would have been a fat disaster for Disney. I can see the interweb outrage as I type!

What an incredible lack of communication there must have been between each person involved here. It's quite astonishing really.

I don't think it was a simple as they thought they were making a comedy. They obviously committed to making what believed would be a Star Wars movie, but it didn't match the studio's idea of Star Wars. According to that EW piece, it mainly came down to a few key scenes that Kennedy/Kasdan strongly felt were all wrong. Howard is hardly going to reshoot the whole movie.

But strange as may seem, miscommunication of this sort are probably the main source of director/studio conflict in Hollywood. Directors are always coming back with a with a movie that studios insist was not the movie they said they were going to make. I remember Fincher talking years ago about the importance of being absolutely crystal clear about what film he is making, so that the studio is under no illusions about what they are going to get.

johnny_ultimate · 22-06-2017 08:55PM

Tony EH wrote: »

How could anybody who's even remotely familiar with the series think that a comedy was what Star Wars fans would want to see?

I'm genuinely baffled with the concept that there should be a 'one size fits all' tone or approach to Star Wars films. I absolutely believe a comedy can co-exist in this basically infinite universe they've created. I believe there can be thrillers, romances, horror, epics, character studies, gangster films... whatever really. All these elements are already in the mix, I have no problem with them isolating one and focusing on it. There probably can't be experimental arthouse fare, but one can dream

The mainline Star Wars films should probably stick to the broad 'Star Wars tone'. But these side films are an immense opportunity to do something different, and based on Rogue One and the reports of Han Solo these directors aren't being given permission to do that. The first anthology film explicitly attempted to separate itself from the core movies from dropping some of the traditional motifs like an opening crawl. Now if only they'd go the full way and make films that have the capacity to genuinely surprise and subvert expectations, I struggle to see how anyone would object to that. With Disney at the helm, though, and the increasing evidence of Grand Studio Overlords, I think these films will be doomed to be rather uninspiring.

Wedwood · 22-06-2017 08:58PM

So much for the promise of taking Star Wars in new directions. You can't really blame the studio, Rogue One shows people want darker/grittier.

As Yoda might say - "different something we want, so long as the same it looks"

FunLover18 · 22-06-2017 09:53PM

Tony EH wrote:

How could anybody who's even remotely familiar with the series think that a comedy was what Star Wars fans would want to see?

I think when you're two directors who have made some of the best comedies in the last ten years, it fair to assume you're being hired for your comedy chops.

Tony EH wrote:

A Star Wars comedy would have killed everything stone dead. It would have been a fat disaster for Disney. I can see the interweb outrage as I type!

Personally, Star Wars is set in a galaxy, an entire galaxy, and I think it's fair that some of the stories that occur within that Galaxy reflect that. By that, I mean fall into different genres. It's one of the reasons I love the Marvel movies, yeh at the the end of the day they're all superhero movies but touch on different kind of stories like the sound thriller in TWS and comedy in Ant-Man, but it's also set on Earth the audience has something to relate to, pop culture references etc, these are extraordinary stories happening in a world we can relate to. The Star Wars universe has no such depth, take for instance the scene in the Last Jedi where the people at the party are watching the laser come towards them, I have no idea who those people are, what they might be celebrating, etc.

Basically Eddie Izzard's Death Star canteen sketch highlights my problem with the SW universe; the death star must have a canteen in the same way that the empire has accountants running its books but these perfectly ordinary things seem so ridiculous in this world. If L&M could have made a small scale heist-comedy that didn't have any real impact on a grander scheme but that gave some sense that these movies are set in a world I can believe in - I would've loved that.

Tony EH · 22-06-2017 10:58PM

Sad Professor wrote: »

I don't think it was a simple as they thought they were making a comedy. They obviously committed to making what believed would be a Star Wars movie, but it didn't match the studio's idea of Star Wars. According to that EW piece, it mainly came down to a few key scenes that Kennedy/Kasdan strongly felt were all wrong. Howard is hardly going to reshoot the whole movie.

But strange as may seem, miscommunication of this sort are probably the main source of director/studio conflict in Hollywood. Directors are always coming back with a with a movie that studios insist was not the movie they said they were going to make. I remember Fincher talking years ago about the importance of being absolutely crystal clear about what film he is making, so that the studio is under no illusions about what they are going to get.

Yeh, I'd throw into the mix the pitch that Lord and Miller gave before their selection too. Perhaps they neglected to mention a few things here and there, or maybe Dis were like "Yeh cool, whatever..."

4 months later -> "wait, what?" :eek:

xper · 22-06-2017 11:09PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

I think when you're two directors who have made some of the best comedies in the last ten years, it fair to assume you're being hired for your comedy chops.

Personally, Star Wars is set in a galaxy, an entire galaxy, and I think it's fair that some of the stories that occur within that Galaxy reflect that. By that, I mean fall into different genres. It's one of the reasons I love the Marvel movies, yeh at the the end of the day they're all superhero movies but touch on different kind of stories like the sound thriller in TWS and comedy in Ant-Man, but it's also set on Earth the audience has something to relate to, pop culture references etc, these are extraordinary stories happening in a world we can relate to. The Star Wars universe has no such depth, take for instance the scene in the Last Jedi where the people at the party are watching the laser come towards them, I have no idea who those people are, what they might be celebrating, etc.

Basically Eddie Izzard's Death Star canteen sketch highlights my problem with the SW universe; the death star must have a canteen in the same way that the empire has accountants running its books but these perfectly ordinary things seem so ridiculous in this world. If L&M could have made a small scale heist-comedy that didn't have any real impact on a grander scheme but that gave some sense that these movies are set in a world I can believe in - I would've loved that.

I dunno, garbage disposal have gotten fair coverage. Luke's a farmer. Han's a smuggler. Bars, junk yards, sports, games, politics, markets, ... it all kicked off as an disagreement over taxes, for feck's sake. One thing Lucas was brilliant at was world building - depicting a fully functioning complex society without getting bogged down in explaining how everything works. It is at once totally alien and easily comprehensible, setting the stage on which the central saga plays out. I don't see where you are coming from at all on that count.

Yes, we could have 'pure' heist films and romantic comedies and such that happen to be set in the SW universe too and I'd like to see some of that. However, I would prefer that the anthology films that are being interspersed among the final saga episodes compliment those films rather than clash in style/theme, just to keep the positive momentum up. Experimentation can come later, Disney/Lucasfilm isn't going away anytime soon.

Tony EH · 22-06-2017 11:11PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I'm genuinely baffled with the concept that there should be a 'one size fits all' tone or approach to Star Wars films. I absolutely believe a comedy can co-exist in this basically infinite universe they've created.

I don't. It would be like the sequel to 'Jaws' being 'Monty Python and the Flying Shark'.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The mainline Star Wars films should probably stick to the broad 'Star Wars tone'. But these side films are an immense opportunity to do something different, and based on Rogue One and the reports of Han Solo these directors aren't being given permission to do that.

I'm not sure that the situation with 'Rogue One' parallels this at all. In fact, Edwards has said that he was very surprised at how much Disney were actually willing to let him away with. We'll probably never really know, but as far as I can tell, it was the "war documentary" feel that Disney objected to and everyone dying on the beach at the end. In the end I don't believe that Edward's vision would have been that different to the picture we got.

That's fairly tame in comparison to the "get lost" vibe that this mess has gotten to.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The first anthology film explicitly attempted to separate itself from the core movies from dropping some of the traditional motifs like an opening crawl.

I still don't understand the reasoning behind that. But it doesn't bother me any more TBH.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Now if only they'd go the full way and make films that have the capacity to genuinely surprise and subvert expectations, I struggle to see how anyone would object to that.

In many ways. 'Rogue One' did "genuinely surprise and subvert expectations". It was a LOT more serious and gritty than anything else we've seen in a GFFA, while still being recognisably Star Wars. I was extremely surprised and very pleased as were the people I went with, some of whom care feck for Star Wars.

Tony EH · 22-06-2017 11:20PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

Basically Eddie Izzard's Death Star canteen sketch highlights my problem with the SW universe; the death star must have a canteen in the same way that the empire has accountants running its books but these perfectly ordinary things seem so ridiculous in this world.

As far as I know the Death Stars did have mess halls and areas for staff to relax, we just didn't see them in the film, because why would we?

I'd have now issue whatsoever with seeing a bunch of troopers kicking back in the mess after a days drill.

The problem, however, is when the scene goes full tilt into Izzard's sketch. That's fine for an Eddie Izzard piss take. But, it's an absolute NO for a Star Wars film.

It would laughable...for all the wrong reasons.

Sad Professor · 22-06-2017 11:35PM

Tony EH wrote: »

Yeh, I'd throw into the mix the pitch that Lord and Miller gave before their selection too. Perhaps they neglected to mention a few things here and there, or maybe Dis were like "Yeh cool, whatever..."

4 months later -> "wait, what?" :eek:

Hehe, well they were apparently doing a lot of improvisation.

Earlier I suggested that maybe Disney was overcompensating for Rogue One's seriousness by hiring two guys known for making fun movies, but thinking about it now the timelines don't match up. Lord and Miller were announced in July 2015 before Rogue One even started shooting. Even TFA hadn't come out at that point, so that was very early days when they were hired. It's possible that post-TFA Disney's own idea of what these movies should be like had evolved and no longer fit with what Miller & Lord had pitched them.

Tony EH · 22-06-2017 11:41PM

Sad Professor wrote: »

Hehe, well they were apparently doing a lot of improvisation.

Earlier I suggested that maybe Disney was overcompensating for Rogue One's seriousness by hiring two guys known for making fun movies, but thinking about it now the timelines don't match up. Lord and Miller were announced in July 2015 before Rogue One even started shooting. Even TFA hadn't come out at that point, so that was very early days when they were hired. It's possible that post-TFA Disney's own idea of what these movies should be like had evolved and no longer fit with what Miller & Lord had pitched them.

I'm wondering if Disney actually know what the hell they're looking for out of these films.

Solo (young Han Solo film) *spoilers from post 1493*

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Solo (young Han Solo film) spoilers from post 1493