Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

end of the road · 22-06-2017 07:13PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Rubbish. There is perfectly legitimate reasons for discrimination against travellers which everyone has given you and yet you in your own little bubble have chosen to ignore.

they're are no legitimate reasons for discrimination against travelers. you only do it because you can get away with it. you can't get away with it with muslims or black people which is absolutely correct. the "reasons" used to justify the discrimination against travelers are just excuses, so are best ignored.

benjamin d · 22-06-2017 07:13PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I think we all know the problem by now though. Understanding its cause and therefore some practical solutions might be more helpful. But lets not. Tell us the problem again Wibbs. Oh do.

We all know the cause, and you've been acrobatically pretending you're stupid all day to avoid it. The cause is a cultural aversion to education that is perpetuated through generations. The solution is traveller kids going to school.

It's as simple as that. If traveller children attended school up to and beyond the age they are legally obligated to, like settled people do, their problems would be virtually eradicated within a generation or two.

Roger Hassenforder · 22-06-2017 07:54PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

How many travellers have you been bitten by?

I've never been physically assaulted by a traveller, and although I have had negative experiences with some travellers, I have also had incredibly positive ones; mostly the latter, in fact.

Actually once. Literally.

But should your question really be "how many negative experiences have I had"?
The answer, the vast majority of them.
Very very few positive interactions.

My education and now my line of work brings me into contact with them a lot.
If there really are a lot of "good apples" in the barrel, they must be down at the bottom of it.

I can't refute your experiences any more than you can mine. However, the statistics unfortunately suggest my experience is evidentially the more closely aligned with the reality of the outputs of their "culture" into society

22-06-2017 09:14PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I can't refute your experiences any more than you can mine.

I'm not interested in refuting anyone's genuine experiences. I haven't identified any posts that I don't believe, I'll keep that to myself.

The point I'm making is simply that it's wrong to discriminate against a person on the basis of a sweeping generalisation, whether or not that generalisation is based on previous experience.

But more fundamentally than that, I'd like if we could try to understand the practical causes of problems in the traveller community.

For example, I think we can all understand the position that human beings are a product of our environment, and that our environment is not a product of some voluntary human consciousness. I think that's as good a place as any to begin, when discussing the origins of the problems, because it may help to identify the extent to which travellers deserve blame over the problems that are endemic to their community.

The bottom-line question, in plainspeak, is just how voluntary is their behaviour, given their unique socioeconomic background, and the apparently widespread anti-traveller discrimination, in this society?

22-06-2017 09:19PM

end of the road wrote: »

while it is up to those in the traveling community who are behaving badly to stop because it would be the right thing to do, it is not up to them to do anything to stop discrimination.

As individuals, you're right. One fella can't be expected to turn the general mindset of the overwhelming 'settled' majority. Can't be done. As a community though, Travellers really could have a hand in turning negative opinions. Where do you think the poor view on them comes from? I'm not asking you to excuse it, I'm asking if you can understand it. Is it born from nowhere?

Roger Hassenforder · 22-06-2017 09:27PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Actually once. Literally.

But should your question really be "how many negative experiences have I had"?
The answer, the vast majority of them.
Very very few positive interactions.

My education and now my line of work brings me into contact with them a lot.
If there really are a lot of "good apples" in the barrel, they must be down at the bottom of it.

I can't refute your experiences any more than you can mine. However, the statistics unfortunately suggest my experience is evidentially the more closely aligned with the reality of the outputs of their "culture" into society

We're both agreed discrimination in itself is wrong.
However we differ in the degree of culpability travellers have for their status as pariahs or societal outcast, mainly due to their "culture" (see definition above) of criminality, violence, neglect, their own intolerance,and their lack of respect for others rights.
They're (travellers and their advocates) quick to decry their treatment, and blame society for their woes, but deflect and diminish their inherent cultural issues that have resulted in their effective ostracisation or 'unwantedness', and compound the issue with their demands but contribute nothing.

22-06-2017 09:30PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The point I'm making is simply that it's wrong to discriminate against a person on the basis of a sweeping generalisation, whether or not that generalisation is based on previous experience.

I actually agree with you. I wouldn't discriminate against any singular chap or lady, settled or Traveller. I give everyone, and I mean everyone, the benefit of the doubt until they give me a reason not to. I include so called marginalised folks in that including Roma, drug addicts, homeless or whoever. Have met kind murderers and junkies and everything in my line of work, believe it or don't!

I think where the fear stems from, and I'm gonna see fear here, is when Travellers are in groups. I can understand a publican being nervous. Just today I had 5 of Travellers on my street selling duvet sets. You're man was only short of having his foot in the door and was bellowing out of him while the other two were in the driveway. I was well able and just said not interested thanks but I can imagine a few older residents on the road were prob nervous. If that were Jehovah's Witnesses I don't think that nervousness would be there. Is that prejudice on their part? That's without asking if the door to door sales of the bed linen was 100% legit, which I'm sure it was! Only reason I'm bringing this up is because it was today and the thread was on my mind.

22-06-2017 09:49PM

end of the road wrote: »

they're are no legitimate reasons for discrimination against travelers. you only do it because you can get away with it. you can't get away with it with muslims or black people which is absolutely correct. the "reasons" used to justify the discrimination against travelers are just excuses, so are best ignored.

The fact that these tribe of primitive gobsh1tes are widely contributing to societal issues is perfect enough reason and are being let away with it by Gardaí and Neo liberal morons amongst us today
Just the other day in the local village they filled their car and drove off. they were caught on cctv but the gardai didnt want to know. Its a complete fúckin shambles. The old man running the petrol station took a panic attack at the fright of what happened but of course if these pr1cks werent served again and barred from everywhere we'd have more do-good sh1ts defending their rights.

22-06-2017 09:51PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm not interested in refuting anyone's genuine experiences. I haven't identified any posts that I don't believe, I'll keep that to myself.

The point I'm making is simply that it's wrong to discriminate against a person on the basis of a sweeping generalisation, whether or not that generalisation is based on previous experience.

But more fundamentally than that, I'd like if we could try to understand the practical causes of problems in the traveller community.

For example, I think we can all understand the position that human beings are a product of our environment, and that our environment is not a product of some voluntary human consciousness. I think that's as good a place as any to begin, when discussing the origins of the problems, because it may help to identify the extent to which travellers deserve blame over the problems that are endemic to their community.

The bottom-line question, in plainspeak, is just how voluntary is their behaviour, given their unique socioeconomic background, and the apparently widespread anti-traveller discrimination, in this society?

Thats pure b0llocks talk there. Its the environment which THEY CREATED and that THEY INSIST ON LIVING IN. They are feared everywhere with good reason

Permabear · 22-06-2017 09:52PM

This post has been deleted.

end of the road · 22-06-2017 09:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The fact that these tribe of primitive gobsh1tes are widely contributing to societal issues is perfect enough reason and are being let away with it by Gardaí and Neo liberal morons amongst us today
Just the other day in the local village they filled their car and drove off. they were caught on cctv but the gardai didnt want to know. Its a complete fúckin shambles.

i agree the gardai not doing their job is a shambles. these people do need to be arrested, no question.

Deleted User wrote: »

The old man running the petrol station took a panic attack at the fright of what happened but of course if these pr1cks werent served again and barred from everywhere we'd have more do-good sh1ts defending their rights.

no you wouldn't. the people in this case would have given reason to be banned. we aren't talking about individuals who have actually caused trouble in an establishment being banned from that establishment. nice rant though.

22-06-2017 09:59PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

They dont even want to listen to this talk. Everything is ok in their own bubble. I wonder would they live near travellers if they are so open minded? they wouldnt be long living there id say

Permabear · 22-06-2017 10:00PM

This post has been deleted.

22-06-2017 10:01PM

end of the road wrote: »

i agree the gardai not doing their job is a shambles. these people do need to be arrested, no question.

no you wouldn't. the people in this case would have given reason to be banned. we aren't talking about individuals who have actually caused trouble in an establishment being banned from that establishment. nice rant though.

So would you live near a halting site? Would you be happy to walk past it every day?

Roger Hassenforder · 22-06-2017 10:35PM

end of the road wrote: »

i agree the gardai not doing their job is a shambles. these people do need to be arrested, no question.

the irony being, if the Gardai did their job, they'd be even more "dis proportionally" represented in the crime stats...

The Bishop Basher · 22-06-2017 10:48PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Just the other day in the local village they filled their car and drove off. they were caught on cctv but the gardai didnt want to know. Its a complete fúckin shambles. The old man running the petrol station took a panic attack at the fright of what happened

Worked in a filling station on the N11 for a few years. Travelers were the bane of our lives. They arrived in gangs, filled up their vans, crowded the shop and filled up their pockets.. There was nothing we could do.. On the few occasions i saw the owner challenge them he was threatened with violence.

This happened a lot..

Deleted User wrote: »

but of course if these pr1cks werent served again and barred from everywhere we'd have more do-good sh1ts defending their rights.

Which reminds me..

@ A Tyrant Named Miltiades!

Is there a reason you keep ignoring my question ?

Say you're a publican in a rural town... A notorious traveler family funeral is on and every other pub in the town is closing..

Would you stay open regardless of the consequences or would you choose to discriminate ?

22-06-2017 10:49PM

Omackeral wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I wouldn't criticize that fear for a moment.

If my car is stopped in the street at 2am by a 6'5'' black guy, I'm more likely to think he's trying to mug me, than if he were some 6'5" white guy in cords and a tweed blazer, whom I'd probably assume needs my help. Is that racist of me? I don't think so--it's an instinctive reaction, just like the fear you describe.

So no, you are clearly not a racist, or a bigot, most people would feel a perfectly understandable sense of anxiety in that situation.

The difference between instinct and racism, is that racism, here in Ireland, is a choice. As intelligent adults, we can accept that we have undesirable instincts, but that we are skilled enough and humane enough not to let these instincts overrule our individual or collective intelligence.

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats pure b0llocks talk there. Its the environment which THEY CREATED and that THEY INSIST ON LIVING IN. They are feared everywhere with good reason

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This is exactly the kind of unintelligent, primitive thought-process that I suspect has substantially contributed to the division between settled people and travellers.

Social consciousness is determines by one's social backdrop. It isn't by accident that children of middle class parents in suburbia are more likely to attend 3rd and 4th level educational programs, than children of lower-working-class parents living in a deprived area.

I accept that this tends not to go down well with individualist philosophies and the cult of the power of 'self', but such an outlook fails utterly to describe the above phenomenon beyond as naive an explanation as Permabear's "it's 100% their fault" line.

Worry not, though. The same dialectical approach also absolves you of some of the blame for your anti-traveller positions. This is a product of the environment that formed you.

freshpopcorn · 22-06-2017 10:51PM

I find this a very interesting topic and it's something I've no idea how the issue will be solved to be honest.
From my understanding travellers in Ireland in the past had a poor enough lifestyle travelling around. Farmers/country people often gave them work and people generally had time for travellers even after meeting the odd bad egg. These people would have being very closed minded towards gay people, different religions, nationalities/etc but they still accepted travellers. Now, I don't know this for certain but I have heard it was an influx of travellers from the UK that caused all the trouble.
The people I refereed to in my earlier who accepted travellers in the past and not other minorities have changed completely. They'd happily purchase or use a service off somebody who'd be gay/foreign/etc but they'd be very cautious of travellers. I wonder why this is? Is it because they people are totally un-accepting and narrow minded or have they a real fear of being scammed/ripped off.
I know plenty of people and they simply don't understand how somebody on social welfare can afford good cars/big expensive events. They don't care about them being on social welfare but it doesn't make sense where their income comes from. Take for instance in My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding. Why is it such a secret where the money comes from?

22-06-2017 11:16PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I wouldn't criticize that fear for a moment.

If my car is stopped in the street at 2am by a 6'5'' black guy, I'm more likely to think he's trying to mug me, than if he were some 6'5" white guy in cords and a tweed blazer, whom I'd probably assume needs my help. Is that racist of me? I don't think so--it's an instinctive reaction, just like the fear you describe.

So no, you are clearly not a racist, or a bigot, most people would feel a perfectly understandable sense of anxiety in that situation.

The difference between instinct and racism, is that racism, here in Ireland, is a choice. As intelligent adults, we can accept that we have undesirable instincts, but that we are skilled enough and humane enough not to let these instincts overrule our individual or collective intelligence.

This is exactly the kind of unintelligent, primitive thought-process that I suspect has substantially contributed to the division between settled people and travellers.

Social consciousness is determines by one's social backdrop. It isn't by accident that children of middle class parents in suburbia are more likely to attend 3rd and 4th level educational programs, than children of lower-working-class parents living in a deprived area.

I accept that this tends not to go down well with individualist philosophies and the cult of the power of 'self', but such an outlook fails utterly to describe the above phenomenon beyond as naive an explanation as Permabear's "it's 100% their fault" line.

Worry not, though. The same dialectical approach also absolves you of some of the blame for your anti-traveller positions. This is a product of the environment that formed you.

Good grief jesus wept. :rolleyes: There is more than the travelling community that there is no hope for. Hope you are never the victim of their crime or midemeanours or it will be a long fall back down to earth for you.

22-06-2017 11:46PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I find this a very interesting topic and it's something I've no idea how the issue will be solved to be honest.
From my understanding travellers in Ireland in the past had a poor enough lifestyle travelling around. Farmers/country people often gave them work and people generally had time for travellers even after meeting the odd bad egg. These people would have being very closed minded towards gay people, different religions, nationalities/etc but they still accepted travellers. Now, I don't know this for certain but I have heard it was an influx of travellers from the UK that caused all the trouble.

There are probably a few reasons for the deterioration in relations between the traveller and settled communities.

Firstly, mechanisation, and the technological and scientific advancements made in farming, have seriously reduced the need for manual labour on Irish farms, depriving travellers of a rare source of employment income.

Secondly, the pressure that was brought to bear on travellers to live settled, or quasi-settled lives, has funneled travelling families onto overpopulated halting sites, the permanent and isolated nature of which has tended to sequester these travellers from the general population. Not only do they often not participate in community life, but there is an enhanced capacity for local settled people to 'label' them based on any sins of their relatives (real or rumoured), and for public suspicion towards them to be augmented.

A combination of the above factors, as well as the weak educational attainment of travellers, has incentivised criminal behaviour amongst an alarmingly high number of the traveller community.

Well, it's either that, or we can take the sage words of another poster in this thread and say that they are just 100% to blame for everything. It's all their fault, a voluntary choice, etc.

22-06-2017 11:55PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

There are probably a few reasons for the deterioration in relations between the traveller and settled communities.

Firstly, mechanisation, and the technological and scientific advancements made in farming, have seriously reduced the need for manual labour on Irish farms, depriving travellers of a rare source of employment income.

Secondly, the pressure that was brought to bear on travellers to live settled, or quasi-settled lives, has funneled travelling families onto overpopulated halting sites, the permanent and isolated nature of which has tended to sequester these travellers from the general population. Not only do they often not participate in community life, but there is an enhanced capacity for local settled people to 'label' them based on any sins of their relatives (real or rumoured), and for public suspicion towards them to be augmented.

A combination of the above factors, as well as the weak educational attainment of travellers, has incentivised criminal behaviour amongst an alarmingly high number of the traveller community.

Well, it's either that, or we can take the sage words of another poster in this thread and say that they are just 100% to blame for everything. It's all their fault, a voluntary choice, etc.

Or perhaps instead of spending thousands on hideous looking wedding dresses for their daughters or these tacky looking gravestones that they might spend it on worthwhile causes such as their childrens education and well being.

Incidentally, where do they obtain this source of income to buy such vulgar items? Very impressive for such marginalised people :rolleyes:
Hope they are paying tax on it or is that our fault too?

freshpopcorn · 23-06-2017 12:11AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

There are probably a few reasons for the deterioration in relations between the traveller and settled communities.

Firstly, mechanisation, and the technological and scientific advancements made in farming, have seriously reduced the need for manual labour on Irish farms, depriving travellers of a rare source of employment income.

Theirs plenty of jobs still today that need doing on farms such as painting and putting down cement.
The main reason I've heard farmers giving up on giving these jobs to travellers is the farmer agrees on a set price and when the job is complete they demand a large price and they get their money no matter what.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Secondly, the pressure that was brought to bear on travellers to live settled, or quasi-settled lives, has funneled travelling families onto overpopulated halting sites, the permanent and isolated nature of which has tended to sequester these travellers from the general population. Not only do they often not participate in community life, but there is an enhanced capacity for local settled people to 'label' them based on any sins of their relatives (real or rumoured), and for public suspicion towards them to be augmented.

A combination of the above factors, as well as the weak educational attainment of travellers, has incentivised criminal behaviour amongst an alarmingly high number of the traveller community.

Well, it's either that, or we can take the sage words of another poster in this thread and say that they are just 100% to blame for everything. It's all their fault, a voluntary choice, etc.

All the travellers in my area live in council houses some are in council/private estates and others are country houses. Even in schools.There's plenty of time put into all children. I never saw a traveller child sent to the corner or excluded from a game. If they were entitled to learning support/resource they were given it and help was always given to students who needed it regarding books and uniforms. Everything is hunky dory in primary school but once secondary school starts. Everything seems to go down hill.

23-06-2017 12:13AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Theirs plenty of jobs still today that need doing on farms such as painting and putting down cement.
The main reason I've heard farmers giving up on giving these jobs to travellers is the farmer agrees on a set price and when the job is complete they demand a large price and they get their money no matter what.

All the travellers in my area live in council houses some are in council/private estates and others are country houses. Even in schools.There's plenty of time put into all children. I never saw a traveller child sent to the corner or excluded from a game. If they were entitled to learning support/resource they were given it and help was always given to students who needed it regarding books and uniforms. Everything is hunky dory in primary school but once secondary school starts. Everything seems to go down hill.

Whoa there, tyrant doesnt do facts be careful now.

23-06-2017 12:37AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Theirs plenty of jobs still today that need doing on farms such as painting and putting down cement.
The main reason I've heard farmers giving up on giving these jobs to travellers is the farmer agrees on a set price and when the job is complete they demand a large price and they get their money no matter what.

Ah here, don't tell your granny how to suck eggs.

I was born in a farming family that has been on the same land for many generations, and ours, and every other farming family, has stopped hiring farm workers for one reason only: mechanization.

Anybody who is hired has specialised skills, such as agricultural contractors, or farm-relief men, who have usually attended agricultural college, or may even hold a Level 7/ 8 qualification.

I have been involved in agriculture for most of my life, and I have never once heard anybody make such a claim as you have made. The reasons why farmers stopped hiring travellers (in fact, most farmers have stopped hiring altogether) was because of mechanization and the increased complexity of agricultural enterprise.

All the travellers in my area live in council houses some are in council/private estates and others are country houses. Even in schools.There's plenty of time put into all children.

Well, this simply harks back to the point I made earlier, that human consciousness is the product of the social backdrop, and not the other way around. All the educational resources that are put into Ballymun, or Sherriff Street, or St. Margaret's Park in Limerick, seem to change precious little.

It isn't about resources. it's about changing the mindset of both travellers and the settled community. And it won't work if you only try to change the mindset on one side.

A lot of people on this thread seem to think I'm anti-settled-community. I'm not. I simply think that major change needs to happen on both sides.

annascott · 23-06-2017 12:46AM

It is horrendous that someone would invite a small child to a party then turn her away at the door. Shame on that person.

freshpopcorn · 23-06-2017 12:48AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Ah here, don't tell your granny how to suck eggs.

I was born in a farming family that has been on the same land for many generations, and ours, and every other farming family, has stopped hiring farm workers for one reason only: mechanization.

Anybody who is hired has specialised skills, such as agricultural contractors, or farm-relief men, who have usually attended agricultural college, or may even hold a Level 7/ 8 qualification.

I have been involved in agriculture for most of my life, and I have never once heard anybody make such a claim as you have made. The reasons why farmers stopped hiring travellers (in fact, most farmers have stopped hiring altogether) was because of mechanization and the increased complexity of agricultural enterprise. .

I find it amazing that somebody from a farming family have never heard of travllers coming around offering to paint roofs of sheds or barns. I am also from a farming background and we occasional have travellers calling to us offering this services. The odd time you get offers of putting down concrete yards or power housing/cleaning gutters.
I have heard of the payment price changing on more than one occasion. It's being discussed on local radio and community Gardai say to be very careful of who you leave carry out work.

the_syco · 23-06-2017 12:50AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Secondly, the pressure that was brought to bear on travellers to live settled, or quasi-settled lives, has funneled travelling families onto overpopulated halting sites, the permanent and isolated nature of which has tended to sequester these travellers from the general population.

They expect free land to camp on, and will trespass if they don't get it.

23-06-2017 12:57AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I find it amazing that somebody from a farming family have never heard of travllers coming around offering to paint roofs of sheds or barns. I am also from a farming background and we occasional have travellers calling to us offering this services. The odd time you get offers of putting down concrete yards or power housing/cleaning gutters.
I have heard of the payment price changing on more than one occasion. It's being discussed on local radio and community Gardai say to be very careful of who you leave carry out work.

Oh, well you mentioned hiring, you didn't ask about whether we are ever solicited with offers. Of course that happens.

To be honest, the reason I would never hire travellers to paint a barn is exactly the reason I stated. It's a professional job. Round-roof haysheds and slatted sheds are large, clunky structures, and there's no way most farmers are going to hire someone without the appropriate equipment, such as powerwashers and sprayers, or adequate insurance. I don't know any travellers in that line of work, nor would they be likely to have a professional outfit like the guys who paint for us.

This isn't some simple job like painting gates or byre walls, it's a professional, fairly risky job, done by people who also paint industrial premises.

As I said, the reason travellers aren't hired by farmers is because modern farming demands professionalism, which usually means capital investment, insurance, AND professional experience or qualifications. And that just doesn't tend to apply to a lot of travellers, sadly.

23-06-2017 12:59AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Ah here, don't tell your granny how to suck eggs.

I was born in a farming family that has been on the same land for many generations, and ours, and every other farming family, has stopped hiring farm workers for one reason only: mechanization.

Anybody who is hired has specialised skills, such as agricultural contractors, or farm-relief men, who have usually attended agricultural college, or may even hold a Level 7/ 8 qualification.

They should keep their children in school then. They might be able to obtain one of these like the rest of us have to if we want a chance of getting a job :rolleyes:

freshpopcorn · 23-06-2017 01:03AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Oh, well you mentioned hiring, you didn't ask about whether we are ever solicited with offers. Of course that happens.

To be honest, the reason I would never hire travellers to paint a barn is exactly the reason I stated. It's a professional job. Round-roof haysheds and slatted sheds are large, clunky structures, and there's no way most farmers are going to hire someone without the appropriate equipment, such as powerwashers and sprayers, or adequate insurance. I don't know any travellers in that line of work, nor would they be likely to have a professional outfit like the guys who paint for us.

This isn't some simple job like painting gates or byre walls, it's a professional, fairly risky job, done by people who also paint industrial premises.

As I said, the reason travellers aren't hired by farmers is because modern farming demands professionalism, which usually means capital investment, insurance, AND professional experience or qualifications. And that just doesn't tend to apply to a lot of travellers, sadly.

We just have to agree to disagree on the matter. All I can write about is my experience and you can write about yours.

Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

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