Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

....... · 22-06-2017 04:51PM

This post has been deleted.

jackofalltrades · 22-06-2017 04:53PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But if non-attendance at school is a legtiimate part of traveller culture, why are Pavee Point critical of it? Why are they calling on parents to send their kids to school.

So Pavee Point are the official arbiter of traveller culture now?

Maguined · 22-06-2017 04:59PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Sure, but that's a different construction.

'The growing drug culture in Denmark' doesn't actually mean that drugs are part of Danish culture. Most people understand this without needing an explanation.

So when someone says that "it's part of traveller culture to leave school early", I find that pretty curious, since it so obviously isn't true, even though there is a serious problem with poor school attendance amongst travellers.

So again you are back from saying you don't know what their culture is to saying you know it well enough to say leaving school early is not part of their culture even though you admit it is a serious problem amongst travellers.

Can you explain at what levels you would accept something as being part of a culture?

22-06-2017 05:00PM

benjamin d wrote: »

Explain how it "so obviously isn't true" so? How is it so obviously not true when you yourself, in the same bloody sentence no less(!), admit that there is a serious problem with school attendance amongst travellers?

Oh sure its all settled society's fault for not knocking on their doors and begging their kids to attend school. Leave their poor parents alone they have no responsibility in all of this at all. They know not what they do. :rolleyes:

What the travelling community needs is more forward thinking, open minded role models like Andy Lee to aspire to and less gobsh1tes like John Connors who is constantly on his soapbox playing the victim.

dm09 · 22-06-2017 05:03PM

I see some people talking about their opinions of travellers been formed from their interactions with them so I'll add my own.

I'm in my mid 30s and I grew up in Drogheda in Co Louth, I don't like to discriminate against people based on their association with a group but I will admit, I am prejudice against travellers based on my own encounters.

The first traveller I met was when I was in primary school, a kid in a different year we were around 8/9 years old. He had a reputation as been dangerous and someone not to mess with, we were deadly afraid of him but respectful towards him for fear of having a run in with him.
I remember one incident in particular when he got in a fight with a boy in the playground, at that age there would be a few scraps and lads with push and maybe throw a few thumps but this traveller kid gave the other guy a horrendous beating, kicked him on the ground and he was left in hospital , it was unimaginable to think that a 9 year old could do that to another.

My next experience was in my teens working in a bar when 2 traveller men came into the bar one afternoon, I was 16 and the owner darted in the back and told me not to serve them.
They were already very well on it and I said 'Sorry I can't serve ye' - this didn't go down very well and i was threatened verbally and then one of them picked up a heavy porcelain ashtray from the bar and fired it at me, it missed my head and smashed the glass of the tall fridge behind me.

Another incident that sticks out was in my early 20s, I was walking home a quiet street in town about 4am when we encountered a group of traveller lads walking towards us, we tried our best to keep our heads down but it was the usual ' have you got a cigarette? You saying something to me' , I tried to de-escalate and avoid trouble one of them lunged at my girlfriend and i grabbed his arms and he struggled and swung a bottle which smashed over my head knocking me unconscious.
I knew who they were , they're known in town but dared not report because of the fear of reprecussions.

Those are my own personal experiences that stick out. I believe that there are good people in the community but the 'culture' is highly toxic, for a very small percentage of the area they have been involved in some of the most brutal and viscous assaults and murders locally, incidents involving machete attacks in broad daylight to viscous assaults/burgularies - people fear them and not out of prejudice, out of good reason.

I know a couple who would be ' settled travellers ' and they are good people , some the nicest you could meet . They live and work as the rest of us do and don't follow the toxic culture.
To me these are not travellers , they're ordinary Irish people like me and you who have rejected the toxic culture and lifestyle.

22-06-2017 05:03PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

What part of the explanation did you not understand, or will I just ctrl+v it for your convenience?

jackofalltrades wrote: »

So Pavee Point are the official arbiter of traveller culture now?

No, but if they're critical of poor school attendance, and are calling on parents to keep their kids in school, then it seems to be to be unlikely this is something that is genuinely considered to be part of traveller culture

Or is Pavee Point opposed to traveller culture?

I'm pretty sure most people consider Pavee Point to be a relevant and important group, since it's common to hear people whine that Pavee Point aren't doing enough to criticise problems within the travelling community.

22-06-2017 05:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh sure its all settled society's fault for not knocking on their doors and begging their kids to attend school.

Nobody here made such a ridiculous claim. Of course is it "all settled society's fault", nor is it all the Government's fault.

Nobody here has invoked "traveller culture" as a defence of these problems either.

Most of the replies in this thread are countering claims that nobody made.

jackofalltrades · 22-06-2017 05:19PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No, but if they're critical of poor school attendance, and are calling on parents to keep their kids in school, then it seems to be to be unlikely this is something that is genuinely considered to be part of traveller culture

Exactly, they speak on behalf of travellers just like the AA speak on behalf of motorists.
And the idea that if they criticise something it's not part of traveller culture, is pure nonsense.

22-06-2017 05:20PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Nobody here made such a ridiculous claim. Of course is it "all settled society's fault", nor is it all the Government's fault.

Nobody here has invoked "traveller culture" as a defence of these problems either.

Most of the replies in this thread are countering claims that nobody made.

The whole basis of this thread is counter arguing the original article in the OP by the traveller girl. She like the rest of their community is critical of the discrimination they face without willing to face up to the issues at the core and that is that the discrimination they receive is based on the obnoxious anti social behaviour perpetrated by alot of their community not just all over Ireland, but the world.

They as a community need to stare at the people who look out at them in the mirror first before blaming the rest of society and they are not doing this. They keep saying 'not all of us, just a minority' and yet its funny that several of us here on this thread for example from probably different parts of Ireland all have this negative perception of them based on experience.

....... · 22-06-2017 05:20PM

This post has been deleted.

22-06-2017 05:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The whole basis of this thread is counter arguing the original article in the OP by the traveller girl.

That's perfectly reasonable. I'm objecting to users who are countering claims that she did not make in that article, and which nobody on this thread is making.

She like the rest of their community is critical of the discrimination they face without willing to face up to the issues at the core and that is that the discrimination they receive is based on the obnoxious anti social behaviour perpetrated by alot of their community not just all over Ireland, but the world.

There is no more reason for her to defend criminality, nor would she, I imagine, than an African American teenage girl in Washington State would defend or explain gun violence perpetrated by black people in Philadelphia.

I suspect what you're looking for is more akin to a traveller saying 'I understand why you mistrust or discriminate against me, based on your experiences'. That would be as ridiculous a mentality as the obnoxious opinions of those perpetrating that very prejudice; it would in fact have the result of legitimising prejudice.

....... wrote: »

What explanation?

Oh, so ctrl+v it is then

But if non-attendance at school is a legtiimate part of traveller culture, why are Pavee Point critical of it? Why are they calling on parents to send their kids to school.

I think you are confusing 'culture' with 'norms'. Poor school attendance and weak educational attainment are evidently not part of traveller culture, but they are a major problem within that community.

It is no more correct that this is part of traveller culture, than to claim that sectarian violence was part of Ulster culture, or that stabbing is part of Limerick culture.

22-06-2017 05:34PM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Exactly, they speak on behalf of travellers just like the AA speak on behalf of motorists.
And the idea that if they criticise something it's not part of traveller culture, is pure nonsense.

So Pavee Point don't support the traveller culture?

Yeah, that sounds credible alright. Good one.

22-06-2017 05:45PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

That's perfectly reasonable. I'm objecting to users who are countering claims that she did not make in that article, and which nobody on this thread is making.

There is no more reason for her to defend criminality, nor would she, I imagine, than an African American teenage girl in Washington State would defend or explain gun violence perpetrated by black people in Philadelphia.

Why bring this back to black people as if its a valid comparison?

The travellers are a declared minority community while there is millions of black people in every country in the world from all walks of life amongst many various class ranges. If a black person commits a crime in downtown Philly, South London, Dublin or wherever, im more likely to question the area as a whole and the background of the individual regardless of his skin colour. Im hardly going to tar them with the same brush as someone who has to walk 6 miles or more to fetch a pale of water in Sub Saharan Africa for example?

If a traveller commits a crime however, one might suspect it is endemic of their failed and indulged community and the problems that lack of education and normality brings while using the banner of convenience to maintain this lifestyle.

benjamin d · 22-06-2017 05:46PM

Tyrant whateveryournameis, you have absolutely no back up for your statements at all at this stage. Practically every poster in this thread disagrees with you as far as I can see. You're claiming to have no knowledge of traveller culture yet you have the authority to say what is and isn't traveller culture...how is that?

22-06-2017 05:53PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The travellers are a declared minority community while there is millions of black people in every country in the world

That's why I didn't say 'black people'. I said 'African Americans'.

Like travellers, African Americans are hugely, disproprtionately represented in crime statistics. 1 out of every 2 homicides in America are committed by African Americans, despite the fact that they are just 13% of the population. The statistic is repeated across other violent crime categories.

These are undeniable facts, but in no way can they *ever* justify discrimination against African Americans. And the same applies to travellers. Yes there is a problem with criminality in both communities, but it's no excuse for prejudice.

22-06-2017 06:05PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

That's why I didn't say 'black people'. I said 'African Americans'.

Like travellers, African Americans are hugely, disproprtionately represented in crime statistics. 1 out of every 2 homicides in America are committed by African Americans, despite the fact that they are just 13% of the population. The statistic is repeated across other violent crime categories.

These are undeniable facts, but in no way can they *ever* justify discrimination against African Americans. And the same applies to travellers. Yes there is a problem with criminality in both communities, but it's no excuse for prejudice.

Rubbish. There is perfectly legitimate reasons for discrimination against travellers which everyone has given you and yet you in your own little bubble have chosen to ignore.

If i walk down the street past a man of African origin im less apprehensive because there is a high percentage that he is no threat to me similarly to walking past a German on the street i am confident that its unlikely he is planning on starting another holocaust. He may well be but im confident enough to take my chances.

Travellers though, well i wouldnt be so confident of that probability. I was once walking towards the Tippinst campus in Clonmel minding my own business when a group of travellers decided they didnt like the look of me and let fly a rock at me from the other side of the roundabout and that is justs one of the various interactions i have had with them. Yes, they arent all bad but more than enough of them are. Every negative perception of them wasnt plucked out of thin air. Im not going to hate a person because they live in a caravan. Id happily live in a caravan myself. Its how i live, how i raise my children, how I treat and interact with others that define me.

Roger Hassenforder · 22-06-2017 06:08PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

That's why I didn't say 'black people'. I said 'African Americans'.

Like travellers, African Americans are hugely, disproprtionately represented in crime statistics. 1 out of every 2 homicides in America are committed by African Americans, despite the fact that they are just 13% of the population. The statistic is repeated across other violent crime categories.

These are undeniable facts, but in no way can they *ever* justify discrimination against African Americans. And the same applies to travellers. Yes there is a problem with criminality in both communities, but it's no excuse for prejudice.

You keep trotting out the stats on African Americas, failing to mention most of the reported violence is 'black on black' , like 93% of the murders. You're not making any point. Your repeated attempts to compare the two (travellers and African Americans) are tiresome.

Travellers are disproportionally represented in crime stats, because of their disproportionate rates of criminality.

Google 'culture', I suspect your definition is at odds with a correct one.
"the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society"

Now do you need those school attendance rates again?

22-06-2017 06:15PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Rubbish. There is perfectly legitimate reasons for discrimination against travellers which everyone has given you and yet you in your own little bubble have chosen to ignore.

I'm not living in a bubble, and by the way, the words "legitimate reasons for discrimination" towards ANY ethnic group, just don't compute.

You're defending discrimination against an ethnic minority. Maybe think about that, because once you've gone that far down the rabbit hole, I doubt you'll hear anyone but your fellow travellers (so to speak).

22-06-2017 06:26PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm not living in a bubble, and by the way, the words "legitimate reasons for discrimination" towards ANY ethnic group, just don't compute.

You're defending discrimination against an ethnic minority. Maybe think about that, because once you've gone that far down the rabbit hole, I doubt you'll hear anyone but your fellow travellers (so to speak).

I tell you what else doesnt compute but you are insistent on flogging that pony. Your comparison of the travelling community with a whole race of a few million people.

The discrimination and marginalisation as explained to you previously is based on experiences people have endured with the travelling community. The only one who needs to come out of the rabbit hole is travellers and the likes of yourself who peddle this nonsense.

22-06-2017 06:27PM

Bad Breed of Bollocks wrote: »

Lets say I own a pub, am I going to close my pub when a traveller funeral is on? Hell yeah I am, and I couldn't give a toss about people's feelings or who I offend.

Oh now, when you go down that rabbit hole there is no turning back. What about the poor craturs you are discriminating against? So what if they thrash your pub, so long as the PC brigade and the idiots are happy

22-06-2017 06:29PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I tell you what else doesnt compute but you are insistent on flogging that pony. Your comparison of the travelling community with a whole race of a few million people.

A few million African Americans (37 million to be exact) is a fairly good dataset.

Aren't you discriminating against travellers based on what, 37,000 travellers?

It's not clear where you're going with that particular point... probably doesn't serve your argument to pursue it.

Roger Hassenforder · 22-06-2017 06:33PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm not living in a bubble, and by the way, the words "legitimate reasons for discrimination" towards ANY ethnic group, just don't compute.

You're defending discrimination against an ethnic minority. Maybe think about that, because once you've gone that far down the rabbit hole, I doubt you'll hear anyone but your fellow travellers (so to speak).

And therein is the paradox
Discrimination implies unfair treatment.
No one should be discriminated against. No child that wants to go to school should be stopped. All children should be made go.

But people's attitude towards travellers is more often than not grounded in a negative experience with any they have had to interact. This isn't irrational, it's a reaction to experienced and perceived threat.

Not all dogs bite, but if you've been bitten by all/most dogs you meet, if you don't demonstrate some degree of caution to ensure you aren't bitten again you're a fool.

22-06-2017 06:33PM

Bad Breed of Bollocks wrote: »

Ha ha. I'll discriminate against anyone when it comes to self preservation.

As for the silly comparison with blacks, yeah I'm not going to walk around the ghetto when I'm in America. Guess that's discrimination too.

Wow, only 6 posts and you're already writing-off Asians and travellers, and now you're opining about blacks in the ghetto.

I think you took a wrong turn on the road to Stormfront.

22-06-2017 06:36PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

And therein is the paradox
Discrimination implies unfair treatment.
No one should be discriminated against. No child that wants to go to school should be stopped. All children should be made go.

But people's attitude towards travellers is more often than not grounded in a negative experience with any they have had to interact. This isn't irrational, it's a reaction to experienced and perceived threat.

Not all dogs bite, but if you've been bitten by all/most dogs you meet, if you don't demonstrate some degree of caution to ensure you aren't bitten again you're a fool.

How many travellers have you been bitten by?

I've never been physically assaulted by a traveller, and although I have had negative experiences with some travellers, I have also had incredibly positive ones; mostly the latter, in fact.

Bad Breed of Bollocks · 22-06-2017 06:36PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Wow, only 6 posts and you're already writing-off Asians and travellers, and now you're opining about blacks in the ghetto.

I think you took a wrong turn on the road to Stormfront.

Ah stormfront comment. So predictable. Would you walk through an American ghetto? If not surely you're being racist?

22-06-2017 06:38PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

A few million African Americans (37 million to be exact) is a fairly good dataset.

Aren't you discriminating against travellers based on what, 37,000 travellers?

It's not clear where you're going with that particular point... probably doesn't serve your argument to pursue it.

Why are you using 37 million to compare with 37 thousand so? Are you so far up your own 'rabbit hole' that you dont see the irony of your posts? Im discriminating against travellers because there is too many incidents involving their community over the years that warrant it. If i see travellers on the same street ill happily admit im crossing the road. Im not going to be all pompous, arrogant, naive and stupid and take a chance because experience and interactions suggests otherwise. No they are not all bad of course but too bloody many of them are. They have a problem and it wont be solved by delusional idiots going along with them. There has been two many incidents to ignore. Hell, a good people on this thread have gave an anecdote and yet we're still led to believe that its only a minority of perpetrators amongst their wonderful cultural community of 37000.

The travelling community has a problem. If the neo liberals want to keep their head up their arse then it will only continue

22-06-2017 06:49PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are you using 37 million to compare with 37 thousand so?

Mate, do you even know what point you are trying to make here?

This question makes no sense... but do elaborate, please. Why should I spend time trying to undermine your argument, when you're happy to do it all by yourself!

Go on, please. Tell me why the above is statistically precarious?!

Im discriminating against travellers because there is too many incidents involving their community over the years that warrant it.

And what about white Americans who say the same thing about African Americans with whom those people have had legitimately negative experiences? Are they entitled to discriminate against, say, their African American neighbours or acquaintances?

The travelling community has a problem. If the neo liberals want to keep their head up their arse then it will only continue

Do you actually know what a neo-liberal is? I'm not a liberal, let alone a latter-day one.

The travelling community has immense problems, nobody denies this. I think what's debatable is why the problems have persisted and deteriorated.

end of the road · 22-06-2017 06:52PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The whole basis of this thread is counter arguing the original article in the OP by the traveller girl. She like the rest of their community is critical of the discrimination they face without willing to face up to the issues at the core and that is that the discrimination they receive is based on the obnoxious anti social behaviour perpetrated by alot of their community not just all over Ireland, but the world.

They as a community need to stare at the people who look out at them in the mirror first before blaming the rest of society and they are not doing this. They keep saying 'not all of us, just a minority' and yet its funny that several of us here on this thread for example from probably different parts of Ireland all have this negative perception of them based on experience.

the discrimination is based on the fact people can get away with it without little challenge, using the behaviour of some travelers as the excuse. while it is up to those in the traveling community who are behaving badly to stop because it would be the right thing to do, it is not up to them to do anything to stop discrimination. it is up to those doing the discrimination to stop, and they are fully to blame and responsible for discrimination against travelers.

Wibbs · 22-06-2017 06:59PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But if non-attendance at school is a legtiimate part of traveller culture, why are Pavee Point critical of it? Why are they calling on parents to send their kids to school.

Norms are a part of culture for god's sake. Avoiding education seems to be a very strong cultural norm with that culture.

Me. Earlier. wrote:

Only only in ten finish secondary education. Less than one in a hundred go on to third level and more than seven out of ten traveller children have mothers with no formal education at all. All those figures come from that woman's article.

Pretty entrenched for something not their "culture".

22-06-2017 07:05PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Pretty entrenched for something not their "culture".

Yep, pretty entrenched. A real destructive problem.

You're great at repeating the problem Wibbs. If the point of the thread was to say the problem again and again, you surely would win the thread.

I think we all know the problem by now though. Understanding its cause and therefore some practical solutions might be more helpful. But lets not. Tell us the problem again Wibbs. Oh do.

Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

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