Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

benjamin d · 22-06-2017 02:26PM

end of the road wrote: »

refusing to put all the blame for everything on travelers isn't racism.
suggesting that other minority groups which have some members who are badly behaved wouldn't have discrimination against them tolerated, and people wouldn't dare discriminate against them yet would against travelers, is valid. it's not racism.
you need to look up the definition of racism.

'Racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.'

By condescending to travellers and assuming on their behalf that they are not capable or intelligent enough to decide for themselves that they need to participate in society for their own and everyone else's benefit, you are displaying your sense of superiority to travellers. You are deciding that travellers are not capable of taking responsibility for their actions. This is your prejudice. This is your belief that travellers are lower than you and need your wise direction as a settled person. You are being racist.

What others in this thread are saying is that travellers benefit from the same social benefits as everyone else in this country, and that they have to display the gumption in themselves to use them to better their lives. What people are saying is that they should be using their equal chance to enter civil society. That if travellers want social benefits the onus is on them to live up to their social responsibilities. This is the social contract by which we all live. Allowing travellers to pick and choose which parts they adhere to is to be complicit in their further isolation. It is to be racist.

seamus · 22-06-2017 02:41PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

No it's because people can see the difference between a culture, which consists of customs and traditions that can change, and skin colour, which is simply a biological difference which effects how you appear.

That's basically it. Ethnicity is what you are born as, culture is optional. The two are not intertwined.

I don't go to Mass on Xmas Eve, I don't eat meat, I'm not a big fan of spuds, I don't hate the English, I have no opinion in the Barrys -v- Lyons debate, I don't sing "The Fields of Athenry" when I'm in a large group, yet I am still undeniably Irish.

Likewise, there is no reason why Travellers cannot live in houses, get an education, and not get married at 16. They will still be ethnically Travellers. Conforming to a culture is optional.

Wibbs · 22-06-2017 02:41PM

end of the road wrote: »

yet the same people wouldn't dare discriminate against anyone else because correctly, it wouldn't be tolerated.

If my overwhelming experience backed up by horrendous statistics and wider society at large found that Gay/Black/Yellow/White/[insert any other group here] were cultures that were damaging to society and the groups, then yes I would have little issue with people being prejudiced against such a group and culture. If I was told upon landing in a country that the majority of local snakes were venomous to one degree or other, damn right I'd be prejudiced against all snakes. Only a fool wouldn't be.

there is no such thing as a bleeding heart mindset

Oh lord there is. You exhibit same with near every post you make on this and other matters.

end of the road · 22-06-2017 02:45PM

benjamin d wrote: »

'Racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.'

correct. so those who excuse and support discrimination against travelers and blame them for it all rather then taking some of the blame are actually the ones who are racist seeing as you are happy to accuse people of being racist.

benjamin d wrote: »

By condescending to travellers and assuming on their behalf that they are not capable or intelligent enough to decide for themselves that they need to participate in society for their own and everyone else's benefit, you are displaying your sense of superiority to travellers. You are deciding that travellers are not capable of taking responsibility for their actions. This is your prejudice. This is your belief that travellers are lower than you and need your wise direction as a settled person. You are being racist.

nope. i never said travelers aren't capible or intelligent enough to decide for themselves that they need to participate in society. that is what you are saying i'm saying but again, you are wrong, and you would know if you actually read what i said. when you make up things you invalidate any point you have to make straight away.

benjamin d wrote: »

What others in this thread are saying is that travellers benefit from the same social benefits as everyone else in this country, and that they have to display the gumption in themselves to use them to better their lives. What people are saying is that they should be using their equal chance to enter civil society. That if travellers want social benefits the onus is on them to live up to their social responsibilities.

it's also the responsibility of those in the settled community to allow them to do that. some of you won't, which means travelers decide it's not worth bothering. as a fellow member of the settled community, i can actually see why travelers decide it's not worth the bother.

benjamin d wrote: »

This is the social contract by which we all live. Allowing travellers to pick and choose which parts they adhere to is to be complicit in their further isolation. It is to be racist.

the only people complicit in their isolation are the discrimination supporters who will inhibit any travelers who do attempt to engage with settled society at every opportunity.

end of the road · 22-06-2017 02:51PM

Wibbs wrote: »

If my overwhelming experience backed up by horrendous statistics and wider society at large found that Gay/Black/Yellow/White/[insert any other group here] were cultures that were damaging to society and the groups, then yes I would have little issue with people being prejudiced against such a group and culture.

meaning you are fully to blame, along with those who prejudiced or discriminate against a whole group because of the actions of some, for those who might be willing to engage with the rest of us, for not doing so.

Wibbs wrote: »

If I was told upon landing in a country that the majority of local snakes were venomous to one degree or other, damn right I'd be prejudiced against all snakes. Only a fool wouldn't be.

irrelevant.

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh lord there is. You exhibit same with near every post you make on this and other matters.

oh no there isn't. i exibit nothing of the sort. again as i said, all these old "terms" are just that and don't actually exist.

....... · 22-06-2017 02:51PM

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the_syco · 22-06-2017 03:00PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

You're allowing your imagination to run away with itself there.

Any parent who refuses to educate their child appropriately, should have that child removed from their care, in my view.

Nothing to do with sterilisation, nothing to do with criminality, I'm making a pretty sraightforward point about child welfare. That's all.

Child gets taken away. The parents breed more children. Should the parents be allowed to continually breed children that the state has to take away because the parents don't allow them to goto school?

Shenshen wrote: »

On the one hand you claim that it's prudent to be wary and avoid all travelers, on the other you state that as long as you can't be 100% sure they're travelers you've no issues with them?

I find anyone who identifies themselves as being a traveller, is trouble.

end of the road wrote: »

the only people complicit in their isolation are the discrimination supporters who will inhibit any travelers who do attempt to engage with settled society at every opportunity.

And this would mainly be the travellers who don't assist the Gardai detaining the travellers who break the law?

22-06-2017 03:27PM

benjamin d wrote: »

I find many aspects of many and varied races and ethnicities toxic. Marrying child brides, stoning women to death, honour killings, homophobia...

I thought you had stomped out of this thread already?

I wasn't objecting to the use of the word toxic to describe aspects of traveller culture (whatever traveller culture is). I was objecting to your statement that travellers are incompatible with society. That's a sweeping and frankly, hate-filled statement.

It gets stranger. You accuse me of racism.

And yes, you're a racist. Your determination to absolve the travelling community from any blame for their social problems is racism on your part.

In any debate, one person will be wrong. I'm just going to quote that statement and leave it up to posters, on both sides, to decide whether that quote is a sensible one or not. I'm saying nothing about it.

22-06-2017 03:29PM

seamus wrote: »

That's basically it. Ethnicity is what you are born as, culture is optional. The two are not intertwined.

I don't go to Mass on Xmas Eve, I don't eat meat, I'm not a big fan of spuds, I don't hate the English, I have no opinion in the Barrys -v- Lyons debate, I don't sing "The Fields of Athenry" when I'm in a large group, yet I am still undeniably Irish.

Likewise, there is no reason why Travellers cannot live in houses, get an education, and not get married at 16. They will still be ethnically Travellers. Conforming to a culture is optional.

The only people who seem to be talking about traveller culture here are those who are virulently anti-traveller.

I don't know what traveller culture is, nor do I want to know. I do not care. Those of us who are suggesting some moderation and deeper analysis of the division, are saying it's about human beings. Nothing to do with preserving culture.

....... · 22-06-2017 03:38PM

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Permabear · 22-06-2017 03:43PM

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22-06-2017 03:43PM

....... wrote: »

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Er, read back on what I have written. The only people bringing up traveller "culture" in this thread are sweepingly critical of travellers en bloc.

Pavee Point, to my knowledge, are not participating in this thread.

It isn't anti-traveller to talk about traveller culture. I'm talking about those are who mentioning it in this thread.

Clear? Or will I go over this again?

benjamin d · 22-06-2017 03:44PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I thought you had stomped out of this thread already?

I wasn't objecting to the use of the word toxic to describe aspects of traveller culture (whatever traveller culture is). I was objecting to your statement that travellers are incompatible with society. That's a sweeping and frankly, hate-filled statement.

It gets stranger. You accuse me of racism.

In any debate, one person will be wrong. I'm just going to quote that statement and leave it up to posters, on both sides, to decide whether that quote is a sensible one or not. I'm saying nothing about it.

Traveller culture is, in the main, incompatible with civil society - I never said travellers are incompatible with society. Most aspects of their culture most certainly is, because it has developed precisely because it's antagonistic to that of settled people.

There's nothing strange about me calling you out as a racist, because you are. You were tripping over yourself to drag black people into this thread and put words in the mouths of others regarding social problems of African Americans. You did that. I have no problem with travellers on individual merit, I have a massive problem with traveller culture in the main. Your insistent efforts to derail the discussion by shoehorning a completely irrelevant comparison with black Americans into the thread shows you up as a racist. You are a racist because of that.

You are also displaying racist behaviour in the same as I outlined to end of the road a few posts up. The worst thing is you think you're being righteous and "virtue signalling" while you're being racist.

....... · 22-06-2017 03:45PM

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Glenster · 22-06-2017 03:47PM

....... wrote: »

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I'm Irish and I haven't a clue what their culture is either.

The Bishop Basher · 22-06-2017 03:47PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Clear? Or will I go over this again?

You'll have to go over it again for me too..

I honestly haven't a rashers what you're on about..

This debate has everything to do with culture.. But suddenly it's become an issue for you for some reason..

Oh and while you're at it..

Can you answer this ?

Swanner wrote: »

@ A Tyrant Named Miltiades!

end of the road has already said that he would keep opening his pub regardless of the consequences and personal cost to him so as not to discriminate against travelers which is obviously nonsense as his business couldn't survive.

But i'm asking you the same question..

Say you're a publican in a rural town... A notorious traveler family funeral is on and every other pub in the town is closing..

Would you stay open regardless of the consequences or would you choose to discriminate ?

22-06-2017 03:48PM

....... wrote: »

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I don't know what proto-Polynesian language reconstruction is, but I know it isn't racist to talk about it.

I don't know what traveller culture is, but I know it isn't racist to talk about it.

Nevertheless, the only people mentioning traveller culture in this thread, are those who are most critical of travellers.

Will we do this for a third time? I don't know if it's possible to be clearer without drawing a picture.

....... · 22-06-2017 03:58PM

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Maguined · 22-06-2017 03:58PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Nevertheless, the only people mentioning traveller culture in this thread, are those who are most critical of travellers.

Generally when being critical of something it atually helps when you mention what you are being criticial about.

Traveller culture is completely on topic to this thread. What is your point when you mention the above?

benjamin d · 22-06-2017 03:58PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Nevertheless, the only people mentioning traveller culture in this thread, are those who are most critical of traveller culture.

FTFY.

Vanishingly few people here have been critical of travellers as human beings. I think you'll find the vast, vast majority of Irish people would be critical of their culture.

22-06-2017 04:03PM

Maguined wrote: »

Generally when being critical of something it atually helps when you mention what you are being criticial about.

Traveller culture is completely on topic to this thread. What is your point when you mention the above?

I'm not saying it's off topic. That's not my job.

If you read the OP, there is no mention of traveller culture. Those of us who are saying the problem is a very complex one, and not all one-sided, are NOT defending traveller culture. I don't even know what their culture is.

Yet, you have lots of people here pre-empting and dismissing the argument that "it's their culture", when literally nobody here is making that argument.

People are literally imagining an argument that nobody in this thread has made.

Penn · 22-06-2017 04:03PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Nevertheless, the only people mentioning traveller culture in this thread, are those who are most critical of travellers.

But it's relevant to this thread. Many of the issues faced by travellers are not down to discrimination, or being ostracised etc, but rather are down to cultural norms within the travelling community which are at odds with modern society.

For example, it's implausible to complain about traveller children not getting proper educations when it's part of their culture to leave school at an early age. That's inescapable.

22-06-2017 04:07PM

Penn wrote: »

But it's relevant to this thread.

I am not here to police the thread. I said that nobody is using traveller culture as a defence, and I can't understand why people are imagining that argument.

For example, it's implausible to complain about traveller children not getting proper educations when it's part of their culture to leave school at an early age. That's inescapable.

I'm pretty sure it's not part of their culture, because Pavee Point have themselves emphasised the responsibility traveller parents have in this regard, and promote school attendance.

Maguined · 22-06-2017 04:13PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it's not part of their culture, because Pavee Point have themselves emphasised the responsibility traveller parents have in this regard, and promote school attendance.

You said before that you don't know what traveller culture is.

When discussing culture especially negative aspect you generally don't use a lobbying group to determine if that negative aspect exists within that culture. When debating is there a drinking culture to Ireland that is negative I don't ask Tourism Ireland or Diageo to get my answer.

benjamin d · 22-06-2017 04:15PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it's not part of their culture, because Pavee Point have themselves emphasised the responsibility traveller parents have in this regard, and promote school attendance.

And why do think it is that Pavee Point have felt the need to emphasise this responsibility to traveller parents? Why would they have to actively promote school attendance?
What a strange thing to feel the need to do, eh? One might be led to believe that there IS an underlying culture of not sending their kids to school... curious, isn't it?

22-06-2017 04:18PM

Maguined wrote: »

When discussing culture especially negative aspect you generally don't use a lobbying group to determine if that negative aspect exists within that culture.

But if non-attendance at school is a legtiimate part of traveller culture, why are Pavee Point critical of it? Why are they calling on parents to send their kids to school.

I think you are confusing 'culture' with 'norms'. Poor school attendance and weak educational attainment are evidently not part of traveller culture, but they are a major problem within that community.

It is no more correct that this is part of traveller culture, than to claim that sectarian violence was part of Ulster culture, or that stabbing is part of Limerick culture.

Maguined · 22-06-2017 04:36PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But if non-attendance at school is a legtiimate part of traveller culture, why are Pavee Point critical of it? Why are they calling on parents to send their kids to school.

I think you are confusing 'culture' with 'norms'. Poor school attendance and weak educational attainment are evidently not part of traveller culture, but they are a major problem within that community.

It is no more correct that this is part of traveller culture, than to claim that sectarian violence was part of Ulster culture, or that stabbing is part of Limerick culture.

I am not confusing anything, when people discuss rape culture or drink culture I doubt you criticise them and tell them they are simply confusing norms with culture. When something is prevalent within a specific culture you can say it is part of it regardless of whether it is publically endorsed or not.

Drinking and driving used to be part of Irish culture, it was not considered a big deal by society at large. I remember my own mother used to drive to the local GAA club every Friday night and drink and then drive home shure it was only around the corner. We changed that part of our culture through years of media telling us the dangers and it has been mostly weeded out. If I told my friends my plan was to drive home after having several pints with them in the pub they wouldn't shrug their shoulders and wish me a goodnight, they would be appalled and conerned and tell me not to do it.

Pavee Point can say as often as they like that they wish all parents made their children go to school but until attendance and more importantly completion figures significantly go up it is completely fair to say that a lack of education and an outright refusal to be bothered with it is part of traveller culture. It is being offered to them and they are rejecting it.

benjamin d · 22-06-2017 04:40PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But if non-attendance at school is a legtiimate part of traveller culture, why are Pavee Point critical of it? Why are they calling on parents to send their kids to school.

I think you are confusing 'culture' with 'norms'. Poor school attendance and weak educational attainment are evidently not part of traveller culture, but they are a major problem within that community.

It is no more correct that this is part of traveller culture, than to claim that sectarian violence was part of Ulster culture, or that stabbing is part of Limerick culture.

It's you who is confused. Culture is not always positive. You're one of those I was referring to earlier who seem to think that if something is "culture" it must be a good thing. It IS in traveller culture not to value education. It IS a responsibility of traveller representative groups like Pavee Point to eradicate these parts of traveller culture.

22-06-2017 04:41PM

Maguined wrote: »

I am not confusing anything, when people discuss rape culture or drink culture I doubt you criticise them and tell them they are simply confusing norms with culture.

Sure, but that's a different construction.

'The growing drug culture in Denmark' doesn't actually mean that drugs are part of Danish culture. Most people understand this without needing an explanation.

So when someone says that "it's part of traveller culture to leave school early", I find that pretty curious, since it so obviously isn't true, even though there is a serious problem with poor school attendance amongst travellers.

benjamin d · 22-06-2017 04:46PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Sure, but that's a different construction.

'The growing drug culture in Denmark' doesn't actually mean that drugs are part of Danish culture. Most people understand this without needing an explanation.

So when someone says that "it's part of traveller culture to leave school early", I find that pretty curious, since it so obviously isn't true, even though there is a serious problem with poor school attendance amongst travellers.

Explain how it "so obviously isn't true" so? How is it so obviously not true when you yourself, in the same bloody sentence no less(!), admit that there is a serious problem with school attendance amongst travellers?

Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

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