Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

end of the road · 21-06-2017 08:55PM

benjamin d wrote: »

It is not irrational to mistrust the group as a whole

it absolutely is . do you mistrust blacks and muslims as well? we have a problem with islamic extremism currently, and there is said to be a higher percentage of criminality among black people.

benjamin d wrote: »

it is not irrational to feel strongly that the onus is on that group to change their ways in order to participate in society in the same way as everyone else.

it absolutely is . those travelers involved in illegal behaviour need to change that yes, however those bigoted toards travelers need to change regardless of what travelers do or don't do.

benjamin d · 21-06-2017 09:35PM

end of the road wrote: »

it absolutely is . do you mistrust blacks and muslims as well? we have a problem with islamic extremism currently, and there is said to be a higher percentage of criminality among black people.

it absolutely is . those travelers involved in illegal behaviour need to change that yes, however those bigoted toards travelers need to change regardless of what travelers do or don't do.

Oh FFS, will you read the whole thread before posting. YOU are the racist here. YOU are the one saying "blacks are bad" here. This is YOUR racism. Many people in this thread have pointed out that conflating travellers and black people is fallacious and ignorant. You and a couple of others on this thread are racists. This racism is only coming from defenders of travellers.

Travellers' toxic culture is THE reason for their societal incompatibility. Insisting on shifting the blame to settled people and demonizing any naysayers to that as Nazi racists is not helping anyone, least of all travellers themselves. And in trying to paint everyone else as a racist, you and the other couple of people trying it are showing yourselves as the racists.

Ray37 · 21-06-2017 10:15PM

In order for the publics opinion of travellers to change, they need to change how they behave (I am using 'they' as in the general population). The 'settled people, we need to talk' line is crap, I appreciate this girls story and no doubt she has worked her ass off, but until the travelling community change their ways, I don't think many people want to talk, let alone do much more with them. We had some traveller kids in my primary school, and I never had any personal issues with them, until one day, one of the older boys came up to my while I was cycling my bike home, and spat in my face. I was about 8/9 at the time. I was terrified. My boyfriend has had to chase the local traveler family out of his garden with a baseball bat, as they snuck in to try and steal the family dogs (Chihuahuas). The same family have stolen dogs from other families in the area, the Guards were well aware, but too afraid to go into the halting site. Until the travelling community decide to clean up their act (literally and figuratively), I don't see how they will be viewed in a favorable light.

Roger Hassenforder · 21-06-2017 10:48PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Be honest now please, did you really read that post and think I was suggesting that travellers belong to a different race? Or that they tend to be black?

As was perfectly clear, but I'll say it again, you cannot write-off an entire ethnicity, even when there is a disproportionately large criminal element within that ethnicity, relative to the general population.

It's not judicial bias. Criminality is a serious problem within the travelling community.

But we're going round and around and around in describing the problem here. Nobody is asking why, and on the rare occasion when someone does engage in asking why, they seem to come to the simplistic, childish conclusion that it's 100% the fault of travellers.

So let's assume they're not 100% responsible.
Care to guesstimate how much?
10%...
20%...
50%?

end of the road · 21-06-2017 10:55PM

Ray37 wrote: »

In order for the publics opinion of travellers to change, they need to change how they behave (I am using 'they' as in the general population). The 'settled people, we need to talk' line is crap, I appreciate this girls story and no doubt she has worked her ass off, but until the travelling community change their ways, I don't think many people want to talk, let alone do much more with them. We had some traveller kids in my primary school, and I never had any personal issues with them, until one day, one of the older boys came up to my while I was cycling my bike home, and spat in my face. I was about 8/9 at the time. I was terrified. My boyfriend has had to chase the local traveler family out of his garden with a baseball bat, as they snuck in to try and steal the family dogs (Chihuahuas). The same family have stolen dogs from other families in the area, the Guards were well aware, but too afraid to go into the halting site. Until the travelling community decide to clean up their act (literally and figuratively), I don't see how they will be viewed in a favorable light.

nope. it's up to fellow members of the settled community to change their ways and not discriminate against travelers. yes the travelers who are involved in bad behaviour need to stop it but that has no baring on the settled communities responsibility not to discriminate against travelers.

21-06-2017 11:13PM

benjamin d wrote: »

Oh FFS, will you read the whole thread before posting. YOU are the racist here. YOU are the one saying "blacks are bad" here. This is YOUR racism. Many people in this thread have pointed out that conflating travellers and black people is fallacious and ignorant. You and a couple of others on this thread are racists. This racism is only coming from defenders of travellers.

Travellers' toxic culture is THE reason for their societal incompatibility. Insisting on shifting the blame to settled people and demonizing any naysayers to that as Nazi racists is not helping anyone, least of all travellers themselves. And in trying to paint everyone else as a racist, you and the other couple of people trying it are showing yourselves as the racists.

Actually, for the European Year Against Racism, the Irish Committee tasked with co-ordinating our response produced a report on? Travellers, discrimination and racism in Ireland. When studying racism in Ireland, the European Network Against Racism focused on? Travellers and racism in Ireland. And so on and so on.

I guess you would say they were showing that they were the racists...

The Bishop Basher · 21-06-2017 11:19PM

end of the road wrote: »

it absolutely is . do you mistrust blacks and muslims as well? we have a problem with islamic extremism currently, and there is said to be a higher percentage of criminality among black people.

Why do you keep bringing up blacks and muslims ?

Do you honestly not get how irrelevant they are to a discussion about travelers ?

If I was black, muslim or any other minority i'd be really insulted to be compared in any way with travelers and their anti-social behaviour in the way that you keep doing and i'm not easily insulted...

Ray37 · 21-06-2017 11:20PM

end of the road wrote: »

Ray37 wrote: »

In order for the publics opinion of travellers to change, they need to change how they behave (I am using 'they' as in the general population). The 'settled people, we need to talk' line is crap, I appreciate this girls story and no doubt she has worked her ass off, but until the travelling community change their ways, I don't think many people want to talk, let alone do much more with them. We had some traveller kids in my primary school, and I never had any personal issues with them, until one day, one of the older boys came up to my while I was cycling my bike home, and spat in my face. I was about 8/9 at the time. I was terrified. My boyfriend has had to chase the local traveler family out of his garden with a baseball bat, as they snuck in to try and steal the family dogs (Chihuahuas). The same family have stolen dogs from other families in the area, the Guards were well aware, but too afraid to go into the halting site. Until the travelling community decide to clean up their act (literally and figuratively), I don't see how they will be viewed in a favorable light.

nope. it's up to fellow members of the settled community to change their ways and not discriminate against travelers. yes the travelers who are involved in bad behaviour need to stop it but that has no baring on the settled communities responsibility not to discriminate against travelers.

OK, so in order for change to happen, you think 'settled' people should just ignore all the bad, and magically this will change how travelers behave? I don't understand your logic here. I think the 'discrimination' you speak of is the fear some people have of robberies being committed against them, or crime and unsanitary conditions around halting sites. Not wanting these things in your life inst discrimination, come on now!

end of the road · 21-06-2017 11:24PM

Ray37 wrote: »

OK, so in order for change to happen, you think 'settled' people should just ignore all the bad, and magically this will change how travelers behave? I don't understand your logic here. I think the 'discrimination' you speak of is the fear some people have of robberies being committed against them, or crime and unsanitary conditions around halting sites. Not wanting these things in your life inst discrimination, come on now!

there is no justification for discrimination. refusing a traveler something because traveler is discrimination.

The Bishop Basher · 21-06-2017 11:24PM

end of the road wrote: »

nope. it's up to fellow members of the settled community to change their ways and not discriminate against travelers. yes the travelers who are involved in bad behaviour need to stop it but that has no baring on the settled communities responsibility not to discriminate against travelers.

There's so much wrong with this it's difficult to know where to start.

You've obviously never been affected by them.. You're lucky..

My granny's final years were destroyed by the travelers living in the illegal camp they set up beside her.

Not just one or 2 bad apples but all of them, as they intimidated, threatened and harassed her while robbing her home over and over again..

Over a period of a couple of years she lost absolutely everything that meant anything to her, including every bit of jewelry she ever owned.

But worse then that she lost her confidence and her independence and it slowly broke her to the point where her health failed from the fear, stress and worry.

In the end she had no option but to to leave her home. A home where she'd spent many very happy years.. She moved into sheltered accommodation where she was utterly miserable for a time before suffering a stroke that killed her..

Not one of these "people" were ever caught or punished for their crimes but everyone knew who they were..

She was a strong woman and always had time for anyone regardless of their background or beliefs. She was independent and proud but she was absolutely destroyed by these people living according to their "culture".

That was my first experience of travelers. I've had many since.

My most recent encounter was when I found 2 of them about to break into my home. Naturally I challenged them and was told they were just passing through. I asked them to leave and was challenged.. Told that I would have my throat slashed and the house would be burned down with my wife and kids in it. Eventually they did leave but came back 30 minutes later and slashed all my tyres for having the temerity to ask them to stop breaking into my home and robbing me. In just in case you're in any doubt, 2 days later I found my neighbours handbag which they had just robbed, emptied and dumped before I found them.

So to be honest I have zero sympathy for their plight and I couldn't give a rats arse why they choose to behave the way they do.. And it's always a choice..

I just want to keep as much distance between them, my family and my home as i possibly can.. Label me for that as you wish.. If that's the price of a peaceful life i'll happily take it..

Permabear · 21-06-2017 11:32PM

This post has been deleted.

jackofalltrades · 21-06-2017 11:38PM

end of the road wrote: »

it absolutely is . do you mistrust blacks and muslims as well? we have a problem with islamic extremism currently, and there is said to be a higher percentage of criminality among black people.

That's the kinda claim that you really need to back up with hard evidence.

end of the road · 21-06-2017 11:39PM

Swanner wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

i actually have been effected by members of the traveling community in the past. however, that does not give me the right to discriminate against travelers.

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

it absolutely doesn't. if we were simply talking about the badly behaved travelers then your point would have some merrit. however, we are talking about all travelers facing discrimination because people can get away with it. and that is ultimately the reason people discriminate against travelers, because they can get away with it. they just use the badly behaved ones as the excuse. just like the islamaphobes use the islamic extremists as a reason to hate muslims.

21-06-2017 11:43PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I think the author of the piece in the OP pointed to just about the exact opposite. From when she was a 4 year old child, when she could not have done anything, she was ostracised solely on the basis of who she was. It's textbook discrimination, singling someone apart for less preferential treatment on the basis of their identity and ethnicity, not on what he or she may have done.

dd972 · 21-06-2017 11:48PM

I've never met or socialised with Travellers in my life, but have 'one of those faces', so I have an insight into what they have to put up with in terms of constant scrutiny and comments.

The Bishop Basher · 22-06-2017 12:06AM

end of the road wrote: »

i actually have been effected by members of the traveling community in the past. however, that does not give me the right to discriminate against travelers.

Right so..

If you owned a bar and it was smashed up by travelers at a funeral.. you took a beating and the gardai didn't intervene because there was too many of them..

And this happened a few times.. say 3 /4 times.. costing you tens of thousands every time..

Would you continue to allow traveler funerals in your pub or would you discriminate and close along with every other pub in town ?

end of the road wrote: »

however, we are talking about all travelers facing discrimination because people can get away with it. and that is ultimately the reason people discriminate against travelers, because they can get away with it. they just use the badly behaved ones as the excuse. just like the islamaphobes use the islamic extremists as a reason to hate muslims.

You're defeating your own argument there..

No-one has expressed Islamaphobic views. Why ? Because I suspect no-one here has any issue with Muslims... Apart from you it seems..

The Bishop Basher · 22-06-2017 12:22AM

Ray37 wrote: »

OK, so in order for change to happen, you think 'settled' people should just ignore all the bad, and magically this will change how travelers behave?

Yes. I think he believes that if we all start being really nice to travelers they, in return, will start paying tax and give up crime..

Bless him..

end of the road · 22-06-2017 12:31AM

Swanner wrote: »

Right so..

If you owned a bar and it was smashed up by travelers at a funeral.. you took a beating and the gardai didn't intervene because there was too many of them..

And this happened a few times.. say 3 /4 times.. costing you tens of thousands every time..

Would you continue to allow traveler funerals in your pub or would you discriminate and close along with every other pub in town ?

one does not have the right to discriminate against travelers. it is illegal for pubs to discriminate against travelers. technically, by all pubs closing they are serving nobody so technically not discrimination. i would have no sympathy though if that was changed and it was classed as discrimination and i certainly have little sympathy for publicans here, never mind their outrageous prices.

Swanner wrote: »

You're defeating your own argument there..

No-one has expressed Islamaphobic views. Why ? Because I suspect no-one here has any issue with Muslims... Apart from you it seems..

i'm not defeating my argument as my argument is valid. people use the islamic extremists as an excuse to be bigoted toards muslims, just like people use travelers involved in bad behaviour as an excuse to be bigoted toards travelers.

Swanner wrote: »

Yes. I think he believes that if we all start being really nice to travelers they, in return, will start paying tax and give up crime..

Bless him..

that's what you think i think but of course you are wrong.

The Bishop Basher · 22-06-2017 12:51AM

end of the road wrote: »

one does not have the right to discriminate against travelers. it is illegal for pubs to discriminate against travelers. technically, by all pubs closing they are serving nobody so technically not discrimination. i would have no sympathy though if that was changed and it was classed as discrimination and i certainly have little sympathy for publicans here, never mind their outrageous prices.

Your business would be wiped out..

You'd lose all your regular customers. You'd get a bad reputation. You'd have trouble getting staff. You wouldn't get insurance after a couple of claims.. You' likely get a few digs and could be injured / unable to work..

And how many times would you be willing to stump up 10/15 grand to fix up the pub after each "funeral" ?

10 ? 20 ? 30?

Or would you just keep letting them back so as not to discriminate

I'm hoping you're on a wind up..

Remothenemo · 22-06-2017 12:59AM

This thread is pretty odd.

After reading it briefly, There a few people here saying not to discriminate against a WHOLE group of people which would be preached in most cases and the majority are ''discriminating'' for a lack of a better word.

But not everything is black and white and one must look further into the stats and facts , as demonstrated in the thread.

Here is a genuine question : What is main culture difference between travellers and ''settled'' irish?

Because the whole travelling aspect would be made redundant if traveller's start to integrate within modern society. So what would be their uniqueness be?

the_syco · 22-06-2017 01:06AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I happen to agree that education is a huge part of the solution. I'd go further than many people in this thread, and say that my preferred option would be to take into care the children of any family who are not attending school after repeated warnings.

So, your solution is to take the kids from the non-law abiding travelers? Are you going to then sterilize the parents, to stop them popping out more kids for their criminal enterprises? And do you keep them apart or will they be put back into the family after a year or 6?

end of the road wrote: »

it absolutely is . do you mistrust blacks and muslims as well? we have a problem with islamic extremism currently, and there is said to be a higher percentage of criminality among black people.

Black people will turn other black people into the law.

end of the road wrote: »

it absolutely is . those travelers involved in illegal behaviour need to change that yes, however those bigoted toards travelers need to change regardless of what travelers do or don't do.

Travelers seem to unite against the law, as opposed to uniting against the scum in their halting site.

end of the road wrote: »

yes the travelers who are involved in bad behaviour need to stop it but that has no baring on the settled communities responsibility not to discriminate against travelers.

What's stopping the travelers from helping the Gardai against other travelers?

end of the road wrote: »

i'm not defeating my argument as my argument is valid. people use the islamic extremists as an excuse to be bigoted toards muslims, just like people use travelers involved in bad behaviour as an excuse to be bigoted toards travelers.

Not every muslim is an islamic extremist, but every traveler is a traveler.

22-06-2017 01:10AM

This is all our fault again i suppose....us countrymens b@stards! :pac:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/disgraced-olympic-boxer-michael-oreilly-appears-in-court-35083081.html

22-06-2017 01:36AM

I abhor anyone who'll write a child off because of his parents and if any of my mates openly called travellers "knackers" I wouldn't let it slide, I hate that casual slur getting free reign.

What I also hate is posters on here, one in particular, giving a free ride to the scummy behaviour of many travellers e.g. sulky racing and organised bare knuckle fights. The minute it's brought up, this poster harps on about "the police need to their jobs" and "the law of the land needs to be enforced". There's never any call for personal resonsibility from the offenders. The reason society as a whole works is because we allow it to. You could probably rob a loaf of bread and get away with it. You could probably break that red light and not be caught. But we don't, because there's a sense of self policing for the greater good.

Permabear · 22-06-2017 01:53AM

This post has been deleted.

end of the road · 22-06-2017 02:44AM

Omackeral wrote: »

I abhor anyone who'll write a child off because of his parents and if any of my mates openly called travellers "knackers" I wouldn't let it slide, I hate that casual slur getting free reign.

i completely agree and you would be in the right here.

Omackeral wrote: »

What I also hate is posters on here, one in particular, giving a free ride to the scummy behaviour of many travellers e.g. sulky racing and organised bare knuckle fights.

no posters are giving free rides to scummy behaviour.

Omackeral wrote: »

The minute it's brought up, this poster harps on about "the police need to their jobs" and "the law of the land needs to be enforced".

yes, because it's fact. if someone is racing on the roads, arrest them. if someone is organising or involved in organised fights, arrest them. it's as simple as that.

Omackeral wrote: »

There's never any call for personal resonsibility from the offenders.

because doing so would just be a ranting sound bite. the reality is people break the law and we need to insure that is dealt with and punished accordingly.

Omackeral wrote: »

The reason society as a whole works is because we allow it to. You could probably rob a loaf of bread and get away with it. You could probably break that red light and not be caught. But we don't, because there's a sense of self policing for the greater good.

that's great, but that doesn't change the fact people break the law.

22-06-2017 02:49AM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

So what percentage blame would you place on travellers then?

Anybody who claims to have a formula which precisely (or even roughly) estimates such a figure, immediately loses credibility.

Social relations are of such a nature that, in any nonlinear complex system, even small events can have major ramifications (see: the butterfly effect). Anybody who claims to have some neat answer to your question is clearly talking BS, including a certain person who has apportioned "100%" of the blame on travellers themselves.

jackofalltrades wrote: »

And yes, they probably tend to place less importance than education for other reasons too

Do you think traveller culture not valuing education could be a part of the problem?

You literally quoted a line where I said that travellers place less importance on education, and then you asked me whether this is part of the problem?

I have to wonder if it's worthwhile replying to you, because you don't seem to be reading the posts you are quoting.

OF COURSE it is a problem that traveller parents tend to place less importance on education than other parents. My crucual question is why? It's very easy to blame, of course, and I fully expect you to do so.

Taking traveller children into care would cause a national outcry.

*Shrug*. I'm proposing an action which I think should happen, not what I think will happen.

....... wrote: »

Who cares why?

Is this even a serious question? As a general rule, you cannot resolve a symptom until you understand the underlying cause.

If you have nausea, your GP might give you some temporary anti-emitic relief, but his main concern will be to understand the cause of your symptoms.

If we want to address the breakdown in relations between travellers and settled people, we must begin by asking why the (well established) problems have manifested themselves. You cannot effectively address a symptom unless you understand why it has arisen.

benjamin d wrote: »

Travellers' toxic culture is THE reason for their societal incompatibility.

I find it incredible, and also weirdly representative of the attitudes of many Irish people, that you accuse the "toxic" lifestyles of travellers as being incompatible with Irish society, and then you (bizarrely) accuse others of racism.

22-06-2017 02:55AM

the_syco wrote: »

So, your solution is to take the kids from the non-law abiding travelers? Are you going to then sterilize the parents, to stop them popping out more kids for their criminal enterprises? And do you keep them apart or will they be put back into the family after a year or 6?

You're allowing your imagination to run away with itself there.

Any parent who refuses to educate their child appropriately, should have that child removed from their care, in my view.

Nothing to do with sterilisation, nothing to do with criminality, I'm making a pretty sraightforward point about child welfare. That's all.

benjamin d · 22-06-2017 07:36AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I find it incredible, and also weirdly representative of the attitudes of many Irish people, that you accuse the "toxic" lifestyles of travellers as being incompatible with Irish society, and then you (bizarrely) accuse others of racism.

I find many aspects of many and varied races and ethnicities toxic. Marrying child brides, stoning women to death, honour killings, homophobia... I could go on and on about things in many cultures that are abhorrent. Irish culture itself has plenty of aspects to criticise. This discussion is about travellers, whose culture has essentially deliberately developed as antagonistic to that of settled people.

And yes, you're a racist. Your determination to absolve the travelling community from any blame for their social problems is racism on your part. You're treating one group of people differently and demanding the same from others here simply because of their ethnicity. Treating someone differently because of your sense of superiority to them is racism - you're a racist.

Your superior attitude to black people is also obvious. You're pulling up the negative aspects of black people in America in an attempt to compare to travellers - that's racist. You, up there on your high horse, can't see that you are one of the only racists in this thread.

Shenshen · 22-06-2017 08:03AM

Omackeral wrote: »

I abhor anyone who'll write a child off because of his parents and if any of my mates openly called travellers "knackers" I wouldn't let it slide, I hate that casual slur getting free reign.

What I also hate is posters on here, one in particular, giving a free ride to the scummy behaviour of many travellers e.g. sulky racing and organised bare knuckle fights. The minute it's brought up, this poster harps on about "the police need to their jobs" and "the law of the land needs to be enforced". There's never any call for personal resonsibility from the offenders. The reason society as a whole works is because we allow it to. You could probably rob a loaf of bread and get away with it. You could probably break that red light and not be caught. But we don't, because there's a sense of self policing for the greater good.

And where does that "sense of self-policing" come from?
Remove the police from any society., even just for a short space of time, and you will pretty much immediately notice that sense evaporating almost entirely. Google "Montreal's Night of Terror", a result of a 16h police strike back in 1969.

I wouldn't for a moment condone any aspect of violent behaviour, nor of animal abuse or of endangering others.
But the rest of society doesn't engage in them largely because they fear the repercussions. If a sub-section of our society don't, you have to ask why.

Shenshen · 22-06-2017 08:08AM

I have an honest question to all those who point to bad experiences as informing the way they view travellers:

In my life, nearly all violence I've experienced, all the threats I've faced and all the abuse I got (and I got a fair share, I'd say), came from men. It was men who would beat me and punch me, men who would shout abuse at me in the street, men who treated me as a doormat.

Would you say there's something wrong with me for not being immediately suspicious of all men I meet? That I actually will open the door to the postman? That I work with men every day and don't feel fearful or distrustful? That I actually even went an married one?

Or does it make me sexist to notice that no woman ever treated me with as much violence?

Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

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