Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

The Bishop Basher · 21-06-2017 02:35PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Horseshit.

Almost every person reading this thread will have been to school with a traveller child.

Can anybody seriously claim that they never saw that child condemned by their peers as a 'knacker', or that they have never seen that child been sniggered at?

Behaviour is often learned. To say that it is merely a product of personal experience (itself an inexcusable basis upon which to discriminate) is pure, well, horseshit.

You're assuming everyone else shared your experiences.

They didn't..

Speaking for myself, and others here who have expressed as much, my opinion of traveller culture is based solely on my own direct personal experiences which have been almost all negative and in some cases down right threatening, frightening and dangerous.

To be honest, you have some nerve telling us all why we hold the opinions we do.

Out of interest though..

To A Tyrant Named Miltiades, Conor74 and end of the road..

You are all clearly very supportive of traveller culture, even using their terminology to describe us all as "settled" people etc..

Would you invite travellers to stay in your home ?

Would you go drinking with travellers for say a wedding or a funeral ?

Would you go stay in a traveller camp ?

Just wondering..

markodaly · 21-06-2017 02:41PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

There are a fair few. There is a traveller barrister. There's a few that are guards, doctors, teachers. A lot of them that do work often try to hide their traveller identity because of fear of discrimination.

If some of them can go through the education system and achieve respectable employment and be active members of society, what does this tell you. That for some, the outliers as they have been called, the opportunities are there for them.

Every Irish child, traveller or not has access to free primary and secondary eduction however, most traveller families do not see that much value in it, unfortunately.

If travellers are crying foul over discrimination within schools, I would like to see some proof of this, not some type of 'the boy who cried wolf' thing. Show us some stats the says the Irish state and the Dept. of Education actively and systematically discriminate against traveller children from accessing education, just like the rest of the population.

Instead, what I see is just the blame being laid on anyone and everyone else apart from looking at your own culture which manifests itself in taking your children out of school and traipsing around the country for months on end which is obviously harmful to the child. Do you think that they should not do this? There is laws here regards truancy, why are they not enforced?

markodaly · 21-06-2017 02:43PM

end of the road wrote: »

no . they will be welcomed full stop, unless they actually do something bad. the "if they do this and that they will be welcomed" nonsense is just an excuse for one's bigotry and discriminatory views.

As I said, people form personal experiences from the bad, there is too much of it without repercussions. The crime statistics alone bare this as the truth.

end of the road · 21-06-2017 02:45PM

Swanner wrote: »

Out of interest though..

To A Tyrant Named Miltiades, Conor74 and end of the road..

You are all clearly very supportive of traveller culture, even using their terminology to describe us all as "settled" people etc..

i support the right of people not to be discriminated against because of who they are. they're are aspects of traveler culture i personally do not like or agree with it, but it doesn't justify bigotry toards travelers.

Would you invite travellers to stay in your home ?

Would you go drinking with travellers for say a wedding or a funeral ?

Would you go stay in a traveller camp ?

Just wondering..

i have gone drinking with travelers plenty of times with no issues what so ever. i have no room in my home for any body unfortunately, all space is taken up. but if i had the space, i would have no more issue inviting a traveler friend to stay then any other friend of mine. i wouldn't invite anyone i didn't know though traveler or not. none of the travelers i know live in a traveler camp.

markodaly wrote: »

As I said, people form personal experiences from the bad, there is too much of it without repercussions. The crime statistics alone bare this as the truth.

doesn't justify bigotry and discrimination toards travelers.

....... · 21-06-2017 03:07PM

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21-06-2017 03:13PM

Swanner wrote: »

Out of interest though..

To A Tyrant Named Miltiades, Conor74 and end of the road..

You are all clearly very supportive of traveller culture

I am no more supportive of traveller culture (I don't even know what traveller culture is), than I am of flemish traditions or of the proto-linguistics of the Polynesian languages.

My concern is with the dehumanisation of the travellers; their welfare, especially child welfare; and why relations between settled people and travellers have broken down so catastrophically, on both sides. I don't much care about traveller culture.

Would you invite travellers to stay in your home ?

In many circumstances, I would, yes. They are not a homogenous group of people, and your question is in itself offensive.

Not only would I let plenty of travellers stay in my home, but since you asked the question, I'll bore you a story I have mentioned before on other threads. I come from a farm, and when I was a teenager, travellers once camped their caravans in the lay-by right outside our gate, a few minutes walk from my front door.

My parents put a padlock on the gates at night, so paranoid were they about the camp. The memory of my Dad locking the gate in the evenings has always stuck with me, there was a terrible sense of portentious excitement about being 'besieged' as it seemed.

And nothing happened. My siblings and I eventually got used to cycling past them on our way to school, my parents got fed up with the padlock on the gate, and one morning they were gone. And what I remember most are the anti-traveller taunts my brothers and sisters shared between ourselves ... 'get back down the drive to your brothers and sisters you knacker' ... 'shouldn't you be going home now?', pretending to hold our noses when we drove past them etc. Really vile behaviour.

Then I became an adult and with age, grew out of such immature behaviour, and now i think what it must have been like to live on the other side of a locked gate, and to hear those kinds of taunts, not as jokes between siblings, but on the school playground as a traveller child.

That's my story. Well, you did ask.

Would you go drinking with travellers for say a wedding or a funeral ?

Would you go stay in a traveller camp ?

Of course I would, mainly out of curiosity.

dinorebel · 21-06-2017 03:17PM

[QUOTE=Would you go drinking with travellers for say a wedding or a funeral ?

Of course I would, mainly out of curiosity.[/QUOTE]

Really could be a case of "Curiosity killed the cat"

21-06-2017 03:31PM

dinorebel wrote: »

Really could be a case of "Curiosity killed the cat"

Not really.

I'm amazed by how many people associate travellers with danger; fear, really.

A lot of people object to their bigotry towards Muslims being described as islamophobia. But here, it really does seem appropriate to describe attitudes to travellers as a sort of phobia, sometimes hysterical, even, but clearly irrational.

I mean, implying that I could be killed if I went to a traveller wedding. Do you not see how over-the-top that is?

s3rtvdbwfj81ch · 21-06-2017 03:35PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Not really.

I'm amazed by how many people associate travellers with danger; fear, really.

A lot of people object to their bigotry towards Muslims being described as islamophobia. But here, it really does seem appropriate to describe attitudes to travellers as a sort of phobia, sometimes hysterical, even, but clearly irrational.

I mean, implying that I could be killed if I went to a traveller wedding. Do you not see how over-the-top that is?

god forbid someone should introduce a bit of levity. :rolleyes:

....... · 21-06-2017 03:39PM

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markodaly · 21-06-2017 03:40PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm amazed by how many people associate travellers with danger; fear, really.

Yes, it is not as if Traveller culture glories violence, bare knuckling boxing and feuding.

https://www.buzz.ie/news/traveller-feud-attack-on-road-168384

Par of the course it seems, but lets blame 'settled people' whatever that means.

VinLieger · 21-06-2017 03:45PM

end of the road wrote: »

some of them do, absolutely. no different to some fellow members of the settled community.

Nope the statistics tell a different story that not some but actually the majority choose not to use either schools or the medical services that are available.

And again statistically as a percentage far more travelers choose not to use them versus the percentage of settled people that choose not to use them.

benjamin d · 21-06-2017 03:50PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

...but clearly irrational.

Here is where your entire argument falls down.

Notwithstanding all of the figures of traveller crime rates, violence, and behaviour generally incompatible with settled society that are absolutely off the charts compared to settled people, there is nothing irrational about people using their lived experience to inform themselves of potential danger from a section of society. Because that lived experience for a majority of people is almost comically negative.
It is not irrational to mistrust the group as a whole, and it is not irrational to feel strongly that the onus is on that group to change their ways in order to participate in society in the same way as everyone else. Especially when that group insists on special treatment with regard to the trappings of the society they refuse almost entirely to positively contribute to.

21-06-2017 03:55PM

benjamin d wrote: »

It is not irrational to mistrust the group as a whole

Black people are responsible for more than 1 in every 2 murders in the USA, even though only 1 in 10 Americans are black. This theme is repeated across all violent crimes.

Are white victims of black crime entitled to use their experience to mistrust all black people?

benjamin d · 21-06-2017 04:08PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Black people are responsible for more than 1 in every 2 murders in the USA, even though only 1 in 10 Americans are black. This theme is repeated across all violent crimes.

Are white victims of black crime entitled to use their experience to mistrust all black people?

Are white people in the US victims of or witnesses to crime perpetrated by the majority of black people they meet? Almost every white American will have an overwhelming amount of positive or neutral experiences with black people every day, because most black people are normal members of society. That is not the case with travellers.

21-06-2017 04:19PM

benjamin d wrote: »

Are white people in the US victims of or witnesses to crime perpetrated by the majority of black people they meet?

No, and neither are most settled people victims or witnesses to crime every time they see or meet a traveller.

Clearly, black people in the US, and travellers in Ireland, are disproportionately (hugely disproportionately) represented in criminal statistics.

I suggest we apply the same rules in distrusting both groups: i.e. don't be a bigot.

benjamin d · 21-06-2017 04:39PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

...don't be a bigot.

I don't agree with you, so I must be a bigot. Since that's the level we're at I'm out after this.
You're being every bit as bigoted towards the settled community in this thread. People have legitimate concerns, borne out by facts, anecdotal evidence, and personal experience. What planet are you on where you think that won't inform their attitudes to travellers? It is YOU who is being racist by insisting on dragging black people into this as an example of another "bad" group. They are not comparable. I'm done with you, racist.

21-06-2017 04:42PM

benjamin d wrote: »

You're being every bit as bigoted towards the settled community

:pac::pac::pac: Yeah, I'm also a big cheerleader for the white genocide.

It is YOU who is being racist by insisting on dragging black people into this as an example of another "bad" group.

There is no such thing as a bad ethnicity.

You need to wake up to that.

Irish Guitarist · 21-06-2017 04:45PM

Comparing travellers to black people is absolute bullshit. Travellers are the same race as I am.

Imagine if a load of black crack addicted criminals in America decided they were a different ethnicity to other black people and insisted on their right to keep smoking crack, robbing shops at gunpoint and committing drive by shootings. Then imagine the government listened to this shite and that any law abiding black person who was sick of these crack addicts was called a bigot.

Roger Hassenforder · 21-06-2017 04:45PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No, and neither are most settled people victims or witnesses to crime every time they see or meet a traveller.

Clearly, black people in the US, and travellers in Ireland, are disproportionately (hugely disproportionately) represented in criminal statistics.

I suggest we apply the same rules in distrusting both groups: i.e. don't be a bigot.

Re travellers:
Is this disproportionate representation in crime stats a function of their behaviour or judicial bias?

I note the Cambridge dictionary defines a bigot:

"a person who has strong, unreasonable beliefs and who does not like other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life:"

The stats and people's experiences belie your charges of bigotry.

benjamin d · 21-06-2017 04:46PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

There is no such thing as a bad ethnicity.

You need to wake up to that.

That's my point. You're the one jumping up and down saying "look, blacks are bad too, why don't you complain about them!"

Traveller culture is toxic. Travellers are not bad people. Traveller culture encourages bad behaviour. Travellers need to embrace the opportunities they are given to escape their lot.

21-06-2017 04:51PM

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Comparing travellers to black people is absolute bullshit. Travellers are the same race as I am.

Be honest now please, did you really read that post and think I was suggesting that travellers belong to a different race? Or that they tend to be black?

As was perfectly clear, but I'll say it again, you cannot write-off an entire ethnicity, even when there is a disproportionately large criminal element within that ethnicity, relative to the general population.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Re travellers:
Is this disproportionate representation in crime stats a function of their behaviour or judicial bias?

It's not judicial bias. Criminality is a serious problem within the travelling community.

But we're going round and around and around in describing the problem here. Nobody is asking why, and on the rare occasion when someone does engage in asking why, they seem to come to the simplistic, childish conclusion that it's 100% the fault of travellers.

VinLieger · 21-06-2017 04:59PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But we're going round and around and around in describing the problem here. Nobody is asking why, and on the rare occasion when someone does engage in asking why, they seem to come to the simplistic, childish conclusion that it's 100% the fault of travellers.

Why? Because they don't go to school, cus they don't respect or put value on an education, then they try get jobs are refused in part yes maybe due to stereotyping but also due to having zero education thus they resort to crime resulting in confirming the stereotype.

Their culture is just a bunch of bad decisions repeating themselves. They have a bad name cus they are known for committing crime, they commit crime cus they cant get a job, they cant get a job cus they aren't educated and due to being known for criminality....... repeat

Do you see the solution in there? Education........ get them to stop ripping their children from schools, will it fix the issue overnight? No there's no such thing as a magic wand but it is the glaringly obvious solution to every problem they claim is settled peoples fault.

21-06-2017 05:03PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Why? Because they don't go to school, cus they don't respect or put value on an education

Well, there's that, and there's the playground abuse, and a sense of pointlessness, because they know discrimination is real. They've been living with it since they were small children.

And yes, they probably tend to place less importance than education for other reasons too, as tends to be the case with parents who were themselves early school-leavers.

I happen to agree that education is a huge part of the solution. I'd go further than many people in this thread, and say that my preferred option would be to take into care the children of any family who are not attending school after repeated warnings.

There ought to be other incentives to go along with that, but that should be one part of the solution.

jackofalltrades · 21-06-2017 05:05PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Clearly, black people in the US, and travellers in Ireland, are disproportionately (hugely disproportionately) represented in criminal statistics.

There's no comparison between the disproportionate levels though.

I suggest we apply the same rules in distrusting both groups: i.e. don't be a bigot.

How long do you think a pub would stay in business if they remained open after traveller funerals in the local area, when all others closed their doors?

But we're going round and around and around in describing the problem here. Nobody is asking why, and on the rare occasion when someone does engage in asking why, they seem to come to the simplistic, childish conclusion that it's 100% the fault of travellers.

So what percentage blame would you place on travellers then?

jackofalltrades · 21-06-2017 05:18PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Well, there's that, and there's the playground abuse, and a sense of pointlessness, because they know discrimination is real. They've been living with it since they were small children.

Do you have any figures to back up the extent of this bullying?

And yes, they probably tend to place less importance than education for other reasons too, as tends to be the case with parents who were themselves early school-leavers.

Do you think traveller culture not valuing education could be a part of the problem?

I happen to agree that education is a huge part of the solution. I'd go further than many people in this thread, and say that my preferred option would be to take into care the children of any family who are not attending school after repeated warnings.

There ought to be other incentives to go along with that, but that should be one part of the solution.

Taking traveller children into care would cause a national outcry.
Even cutting children's allowance for non attendance was met with objections recently.
It's all carrot and no stick, and you're going to get the carrot either way.

....... · 21-06-2017 05:26PM

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irishproduce · 21-06-2017 05:32PM

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I'm sure they're not all like that but I guarantee you there are more of them out to cause trouble than that aren't.

I agree with your post, I wanted to point out an observation about that point though.
I don't think a majority of travellers are out to cause trouble. My interpretation of their behaviour is that the trouble usually comes from their norms and responses to given situations.
I don't think there are any more travellers get up in the morning looking to cause trouble than there are in settled or international communities.
However, with travellers, I think their normal behaviour and habits (Trading in metal, animals, buying / selling/ trading in general on the black market, young marriage, vulgar displays of wealth) lead to them being disliked and not trusted and invariably involved in crime because of such characteristics.

As a complete aside. It is perfectly normal human behaviour as an animal inhabiting this earth, to base present decisions on past experiences.
For example, if you received a punch in the face from a traveller, it is reasonable to expect that you will avoid another traveller if you are given the opportunity. Just the same as you would expect any other animal to steer clear of a human or other animal after an unpleasant experience. To do otherwise is almost against evolution and normal survival.

Permabear · 21-06-2017 06:52PM

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....... · 21-06-2017 08:38PM

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Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

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