Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

Permabear · 21-06-2017 12:20AM

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21-06-2017 12:20AM

sabat wrote: »

What I want to know is why a lot of traveller boys have weird croaky little voices.

This goes out to you Junkie Joe!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5v2dJILqzY

Roger Hassenforder · 21-06-2017 12:21AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

For a self-professed libertarian, it strikes me that every one of your "solutions" are prosecutorial/ statist in nature.
Whatever happened to incentives?

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

On the latter point, not necessarily. Travellers will have to be coerced into education, even if it means removing children from them.
.

So when you say "coerced", you really meant "incentivise" ?

Permabear · 21-06-2017 12:22AM

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21-06-2017 12:28AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'm not attempting to describe the law as it stands, which clearly is inadequate. I proposed my solution, when I was asked to.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

So when you say "coerced", you really meant "incentivise" ?

No. I mean coerced.

But then I've never claimed to be a libertarian, let alone a liberal.

I have no problem with coercing parents to have their children educated by professional educators.

Tell me how · 21-06-2017 12:31AM

^^^^

Fair enough. But was it worth saying 12 times on the wrong thread?

B00MSTICK · 21-06-2017 12:33AM

From Pavee Point regarding education:

PP Factsheet wrote:

Many young Travellers indicate that there is very little point in staying on at school because there was no chance of gaining paid employment afterwards because of discrimination. The only way to get on and get jobs was to integrate, become like the settled population and deny your identity

This reads to me like they actively do not want to integrate? What exactly is their identity? Is it the nomadic lifestyle, young marriages, huge families, traditional family roles (women "mind" the husband and kids)?

This doesn't even include behavioural issues, the stigma attached to education by travellers and other issues that aren't part of their identitiy.

None of these are in any way conducive to a decent education or employment. Does attending school and focusing on studies deny them of their identiity?

I wonder do many families encourage them to go to school? or perhaps they mentioned something like the quote above to them?

Here's another one from the Pavee Point Factsheet showing how commonplace this self-defeatist attitude is.

PP Factsheet wrote:

If a settled person gets a good education it will get them a good job, yeah. But it’s all the same to a Traveller. A Traveller will never come home with a real good job because of discrimination

The first part is obviously not true and I have my doubts he is basing the second part off real life experience (remember only 1% of travellers actually get a "good" education so first hand references would be fairly scarce) so I imagine he was told this and as such didn't even bother trying.

Going back to the article this stuck out to me:

I dedicated almost five years of my life to becoming the ultimate manifestation of respectability politics. And still I achieved nothing.

I think the author really needs to acknowledge that she is the exception - she is the 10% already (in education past age 17) and is likely to be in the 1% that attends 3rd level.
She has a family that has allowed her to attend school and get an education.
She is, as she said herself, the model traveller.

If more followed in her footsteps I wonder where we might be?

I cried for my other brothers, all younger than me, two of whom have already left school,the other 4 of whom probably will before they ever even dream of sitting their leaving cert. I cried for the future that I fear faces them, a future of unemployment, prison, depression, and god only knows what else. A future of isolation, and a future where no matter what they do they will never be accepted by Irish society, and they will never be respected by Irish society. I cried because I want better, not just for my family, but for every single traveller that put up with that same isolation and that faces that same future.

She is could be a role model for other young travellers and has a chance to make a big difference. She should stop the crying and do something about it if she feels so strongly. This can't come down to the settled community or the government to magically fix.

I assume if she gets married/has kids that she will encourage them to stay in school, help with homework and basically offer the support her own parents wanted to give her but couldn't.
If she doesn't want kids she should still tell her story or help those around her (e.g. her younger brothers), she faced all this adversity and got through it, she now has the education, skills and opportunities many travellers never had. She has done the complete opposite of "achieved nothing"

Pavee Point should be promoting her story IMO.

Eevs98 · 21-06-2017 12:37AM

B00MSTICK wrote: »

Pavee Point should be promoting her story IMO.

I'm pretty sure she's turned down Pavee Point a couple of times (she's certainly turned down an advocacy group that she says she won't name because she's not interested in starting anything publicly). she's said she has issues with certain stances they take and methods they use and problems that she thinks they don't address (although I don't think she's ever gone into detail about what those problems are)

Permabear · 21-06-2017 12:40AM

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21-06-2017 12:47AM

Permabear wrote: »

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That's preposterous. I don't think you know what a libertarian is.

Communists tend to obey the law. Conservatives do. Liberals do. So do Catholics, and Quakers, and Presbyterians, and even Dublin footballers.

Libertarians -- real libertarians -- tend fundamentally to oppose statist interventions, as a matter of preferred policy. So it simply struck me as odd that all of your various "solutions" were so prosecutorial, so coercive, so statist in nature.

end of the road · 21-06-2017 01:42AM

Permabear wrote: »

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all ready being done, as much as our pittence of resources allow. we need a properly resourced police force to fully enforce laws and catch as many people as possible.

Permabear wrote: »

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they are if they can be caught.

Permabear wrote: »

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would be pointless as the lost income will be suplamented by crime, or more crime if the person is all ready involved in crime.

Permabear wrote: »

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the gardai do stop such fights when they become aware of them happening.
pressing charges after the fact would be problematic, as those involved in this activity aren't going to play ball meaning the evidence required couldn't be gained. a youtube video really wouldn't be enough as those involved would have consented to it.

Permabear wrote: »

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being done where and when possible. there is only so much that can be done however.

Pedro K · 21-06-2017 01:55AM

end of the road wrote: »

all ready being done, as much as our pittence of resources allow. we need a properly resourced police force to fully enforce laws and catch as many people as possible.

they are if they can be caught.

would be pointless as the lost income will be suplamented by crime, or more crime if the person is all ready involved in crime.

the gardai do stop such fights when they become aware of them happening.
pressing charges after the fact would be problematic, as those involved in this activity aren't going to play ball meaning the evidence required couldn't be gained. a youtube video really wouldn't be enough as those involved would have consented to it.

being done where and when possible. there is only so much that can be done however.

So you're saying that a traveller, faced with the decision of looking for work, or being cut off from jobseekers, will turn to crime? Interesting.

Permabear · 21-06-2017 02:02AM

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end of the road · 21-06-2017 02:13AM

Pedro K wrote: »

So you're saying that a traveller, faced with the decision of looking for work, or being cut off from jobseekers, will turn to crime? Interesting.

well no it's not interesting. some settled folk would do the same so it's not a traveler speciffic issue.

21-06-2017 02:15AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I believe I've asked a legitimate question, and made legitimate points, which you have yet to reply to.

I have dear friends who are libertarians, all of whom regularly invoke the non-aggression principle. But your stance, your would-be "solution" is a series of statist, interventionist, prosecutorial proposals, which seem to utterly contradict the libertarian outlook (insofar as libertarianism can be said to be coherent in the first place).

21-06-2017 04:58AM

lazybones32 wrote: »

Was in lidl to get a few scones and i saw three girls under 10 robbing clothes from the clothesbank. They weren't naked and in desperate need of clothing.

And if we were to accept your tale at face value, er ... so?

Is this Part 1 or a series?

Do tell... what happened next?

markodaly · 21-06-2017 05:06AM

I remember my first encounter with a traveller. I was riding my new bike down a road that was being built. Came across about 3 traveller children, slightly younger then I was. They threatened me and tried to steal my new bike. Had to make a split decision, give up my bike or make a bolt for it. Like that I was gone, bolt it was. They threw an half eaten apple and a one of those cheap orange plastic buckets at me, but missed.

I kept my bike but remember that i was the first time in my life I had to make a decision that had consequences. I was 6 and they were about 3-5. Like many, my first run in was a negative one. I have yet to have a positive one. People do not grew up and one morning start hating travellers, it is built by personal experiences.

For kids that young to be already conditioned to steal, they did not just become like that, they were shown that that was the moral code you live by. It is entirely an problem with culture, the rule of law and respect for others and their property. Once that is recognised, dare I say travellers will be welcomed with open arms like the gay community, polish community and every other community that has made Ireland home.

21-06-2017 05:17AM

markodaly wrote: »

People do not grew up and one morning start hating travellers, it is built by personal experiences.

Horseshit.

Almost every person reading this thread will have been to school with a traveller child.

Can anybody seriously claim that they never saw that child condemned by their peers as a 'knacker', or that they have never seen that child been sniggered at?

Behaviour is often learned. To say that it is merely a product of personal experience (itself an inexcusable basis upon which to discriminate) is pure, well, horseshit.

markodaly · 21-06-2017 06:13AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Horseshit.

Almost every person reading this thread will have been to school with a traveller child.

Can anybody seriously claim that they never saw that child condemned by their peers as a 'knacker', or that they have never seen that child been sniggered at?

Behaviour is often learned. To say that it is merely a product of personal experience (itself an inexcusable basis upon which to discriminate) is pure, well, horseshit.

I didn't go to a school with a traveller, nor did I go to a school with a Polish person, or a Chinese person, nor a black person. School for me was quite homogenous many years ago, it may be different now. Still, though I get on fine with polish, gay, blacks and other minorities. My personal experiences are overwhelmingly positive, thus I give them the respect and courtesy they deserve. My experience withs travellers are unfortunately very mixed. Thus my attitude will be different and coy.

All I did was rely my own personal experience, which you totally ignored. In fact you ignored all the personal experiences as told in this thread and the statistics related to crime and education. You ignore it all in your crusade to blame the all the ills on settled people, whatever that word means. Do you put any of the blame on travellers themselves?

You also have to remember that attitudes to travellers were actually quite civil up to the 60's/70's. I remember my own mother who came from Offaly telling me relations between farmers and travellers was one of mutual respect as they both needed each other in ways. Travellers had a purpose I suspect back then. However, as Ireland urbanised and more importantly modernised (this is a key point, the Ireland of the 40's and 50's was very different to today) and the trades that travellers engaged became more obsolete many of them instead of modernising and getting educated to flourish in the new Ireland turned to crime, an issue that is still with us today.

Travellers live by a different moral code than most others. This is the reason behind much of the conflict between the two communities. Other people from far flung nations can come to Ireland with huge success because they buy into the way of life here. Our Taoiseach is half Indian and gay for crying out loud.

Fixing the issue is one the travellers have to decide themselves. Consign their offspring to a future riddled with crime, violence and premature death or an inclusive and assimilated one with the rest of Ireland and the many nationalities that call it home. It is up to them.

21-06-2017 06:36AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Awaits observing Satan skating to work in the morning...

Wibbs wrote: »

Lucifer gets out the thermals in anticipation.

Wibbs wrote: »

Don't get the "When Hell freezes over" reference? Do try to keep up.

That's the 3rd or 4th good laugh you've given me. It was just so wonderfully...clunky. And I think you thought it was really good. So we both enjoyed it, which is great.

Wibbs wrote: »

Let's recap; you're right, me and the rest with questions are racists/nazis/whatever and it's all society's fault and travellers are blameless. Just so we're on the same page.

Oh dear oh dear.

Is that what you call "debate"? The whole "me and the rest", and then making up a point that was never advanced at all ("it's all society's fault, travellers are blameless").

As you might say, let's recap, just so we're on the same page. But this time by reference to points actually made rather than made up stuff. I pointed to findings made by the EU and the Council of Europe. Your analysis amounted to "they're muppets and numpties". Not sure if that's your own view or again on behalf of "you and the rest". I simply pointed out how trite that was and compared it to another very trite dismissal.

And then you went off on your "hell freezes over" line. I'm guessing a few toes curled amongst "the rest"...

Annasopra · 21-06-2017 07:34AM

MentalMario wrote: »

If only a small proportion of them are criminals, how do the rest put food on the table?

You'd rarely, if ever, see a traveller working in what we'd consider a normal job.

There are a fair few. There is a traveller barrister. There's a few that are guards, doctors, teachers. A lot of them that do work often try to hide their traveller identity because of fear of discrimination.

....... · 21-06-2017 09:54AM

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Wibbs · 21-06-2017 10:14AM

Deleted User wrote: »

As you might say, let's recap, just so we're on the same page. But this time by reference to points actually made rather than made up stuff. I pointed to findings made by the EU and the Council of Europe. Your analysis amounted to "they're muppets and numpties". Not sure if that's your own view or again on behalf of "you and the rest". I simply pointed out how trite that was and compared it to another very trite dismissal.

So still avoiding the main points then? Ah well, at least you're consistent.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

There are a fair few.

No, there are some. And fair play to them. Just like the young woman who wrote the piece that is the subject of the thread. However, as I pointed out, she and they are the exception to the rule. That's why they stand out so much.

The statistical reality is that around one in ten travellers is in employment. Only only in ten finish secondary education. Less than one in a hundred go on to third level and more than seven out of ten traveller children have mothers with no formal education at all. All those figures come from that woman's article.

She then goes on to lay the blame and responsibility for this entirely on the "settled people".

"We need to talk about access within our education system"
Fair enough, then start talking about traveller parents removing their children from free education provided by the "settled people's" state and taxes.

"discrimination within our employment system"
Again fair enough, but you also need to face the fact that if the vast majority of a community barely finishes school and almost never goes to third level, that job hunting regardless of prejudice is going to be a bleak affair.

"about living conditions"
Conditions that your community chooses to live under, because of your culture and lifestyle.

"attitudes within our healthcare system"
Again a free healthcare system that the rest of the Irish people seem to be able to access easily enough.

"above all we need to have an open and honest conversation"
Indeed, but when it comes to travellers that conversation, including this article is entirely one sided. Maybe people will start listening when travellers actually have an open and honest conversation.

"I dedicated almost five years of my life to becoming the ultimate manifestation of respectability politics. And still I achieved nothing. People still talked about travellers in the exact same way as they had before, they still called us subhuman scum, they still called our culture savage, they still called us uncivilised, only this time they would turn to me and assure me that they didn?t mean me. You know I don't mean you C- I don't even really see you as a traveller to be honest. Of all their assertions that was by far the worst. It felt like they'd missed the entire point."

I can well understand her frustration, however I would also say that she has missed the point too. They didn't see her as a traveller, precisely because she's an outlier. And easily seen by her own included statistics for the majority of travellers.

tomofson · 21-06-2017 10:18AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Horseshit.

Almost every person reading this thread will have been to school with a traveller child.

Can anybody seriously claim that they never saw that child condemned by their peers as a 'knacker', or that they have never seen that child been sniggered at?

Behaviour is often learned. To say that it is merely a product of personal experience (itself an inexcusable basis upon which to discriminate) is pure, well, horseshit.

Definitely not, the traveller "child" in my secondary school was the biggest bully, he dropped out in second year but was as big as a sixth year, an extremely abusive and vile person who wouldn't think twice about hitting another student. He did hit other students many times and got away with it despite the schools "zero tolerance" approach to violence. Everyone bent over backwards for him no doubt mostly due to fear. I can remember the sighs of relief in the classroom when it was finally announced he wouldn't be coming back... Not because he was a traveller but because of his bullying and intimidating demeanor.

Roger Hassenforder · 21-06-2017 12:34PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

There are a fair few. There is a traveller barrister. There's a few that are guards, doctors, teachers. A lot of them that do work often try to hide their traveller identity because of fear of discrimination.

It's great to see Travellers in employment, presumably after receiving an education. Fair dues to them, it mustn't have been easy.

(Not necessarily asking you - more thinking out loud)
But does being in employment diminish in some way their traveller identity I wonder. Are they becoming "de-travellered". Presumably holding down a job doesn't facilitate a traditional traveller nomadic style lifestyle? They might still identify as being ethnically traveller, practise other traveller customs. Will their children will grow up as less of a traveller? Are (most) jobs and a nomadic traveller lifestyle mutually exclusive?

Allinall · 21-06-2017 12:54PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

It's great to see Travellers in employment, presumably after receiving an education. Fair dues to them, it mustn't have been easy.

(Not necessarily asking you - more thinking out loud)
But does being in employment diminish in some way their traveller identity I wonder. Are they becoming "de-travellered". Presumably holding down a job doesn't facilitate a traditional traveller nomadic style lifestyle? They might still identify as being ethnically traveller, practise other traveller customs. Will their children will grow up as less of a traveller? Are (most) jobs and a nomadic traveller lifestyle mutually exclusive?

I don't think they "travel" much anymore as a lifestyle choice.

They move around mainly after getting kicked out of somewhere because of anti-social behavior .

end of the road · 21-06-2017 01:43PM

markodaly wrote: »

I remember my first encounter with a traveller. I was riding my new bike down a road that was being built. Came across about 3 traveller children, slightly younger then I was. They threatened me and tried to steal my new bike. Had to make a split decision, give up my bike or make a bolt for it. Like that I was gone, bolt it was. They threw an half eaten apple and a one of those cheap orange plastic buckets at me, but missed.

I kept my bike but remember that i was the first time in my life I had to make a decision that had consequences. I was 6 and they were about 3-5. Like many, my first run in was a negative one. I have yet to have a positive one. People do not grew up and one morning start hating travellers, it is built by personal experiences.

For kids that young to be already conditioned to steal, they did not just become like that, they were shown that that was the moral code you live by. It is entirely an problem with culture, the rule of law and respect for others and their property. Once that is recognised, dare I say travellers will be welcomed with open arms like the gay community, polish community and every other community that has made Ireland home.

no . they will be welcomed full stop, unless they actually do something bad. the "if they do this and that they will be welcomed" nonsense is just an excuse for one's bigotry and discriminatory views.

VinLieger · 21-06-2017 02:11PM

end of the road wrote: »

no . they will be welcomed full stop, unless they actually do something bad. the "if they do this and that they will be welcomed" nonsense is just an excuse for one's bigotry and discriminatory views.

They are welcomed into schools and hospitals already like everyone else they simply choose to not avail of them, then complain about the results of those choices and then blame everyone else

end of the road · 21-06-2017 02:17PM

VinLieger wrote: »

They are welcomed into schools and hospitals already like everyone else they simply choose to not avail of them, then complain about the results of those choices and then blame everyone else

some of them do, absolutely. no different to some fellow members of the settled community.

Glenster · 21-06-2017 02:27PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't think I'd have been able to not laugh at that though.

Interesting article about Travellers by a Traveller

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