short term letting

murphaph · 19-06-2017 09:28AM

4ensic15 wrote: »

What about the fact that there are planning applications being processed for 1000's of apartments and there are cash heavy investors getting no interest on deposit who are actively hunting buy to lets. the Celtic tiger amateurs will be replaced by proper investors who won't take to social media moaning about the price of a deep clean.

Yep and they will only buy apartments in the cities. Maybe only Dublin. If you want to rent a house or even an apartment in s provincial town you will be out of luck when the small local landlords are driven out.

19-06-2017 10:02AM

4ensic15 wrote: »

What about the fact that there are planning applications being processed for 1000's of apartments and there are cash heavy investors getting no interest on deposit who are actively hunting buy to lets. the Celtic tiger amateurs will be replaced by proper investors who won't take to social media moaning about the price of a deep clean.

You make it sound like a good thing. Small LLs are far prefereable in almost every way to big corporations owning housing.

davindub · 19-06-2017 12:59PM

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Well I can't tell the future. Can you?
Call it an educated guess on my part.
That and the fact every landlord I know is planning on going down this route is a dead giveaway. Even reits are going short term only.
Maybe if the govt allowed landlords stuck on low rents to increase them to market rates it might alleviate the exodus a bit, but unless they do something about getting rid of delinquent tenants very quickly, it won't do much at all.

One year from now my guess is that there will be far fewer apartments to rent than now. With landlords leaving the market and sitting tenants having an iron grip on the properties, there will be very little available if you want to move.

This property you are doing airBnB on was subject to a tenancy (you said he was a good tenant) which you gave notice on to move into yourself in January, you are now attempting to let the same property on airBnB breaching the RTB rule & against planning permission, ended up with a short term lease, breaching the RPZ.

Why are you complaining about being able to increase rents legally or not?

Ms Doubtfire1 · 19-06-2017 02:27PM

Interesting discussion. I - out of curiosity - just checked Airbnb Germany berlin - and there is a clause already in there that in pressure centers (and, as per city to be determined) AIRBNB is only allowed with approval of the local council. I can well see that happening in Ireland as well.

https://www.airbnb.de/help/article/854/berlin

jamesthepeach · 19-06-2017 02:50PM

davindub wrote: »

This property you are doing airBnB on was subject to a tenancy (you said he was a good tenant) which you gave notice on to move into yourself in January, you are now attempting to let the same property on airBnB breaching the RTB rule & against planning permission, ended up with a short term lease, breaching the RPZ.

Why are you complaining about being able to increase rents legally or not?

Your stalking of me.is only half done.
Go back and finish the job properly.
As I said to you before. I'll be fine.

Graham · 19-06-2017 02:54PM

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

Interesting discussion. I - out of curiosity - just checked Airbnb Germany berlin - and there is a clause already in there that in pressure centers (and, as per city to be determined) AIRBNB is only allowed with approval of the local council. I can well see that happening in Ireland as well.

https://www.airbnb.de/help/article/854/berlin

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see something similar either mandated centrally by government/LAs or introduced voluntarily by AirBnB. As you correctly state, it's happened in other markets.

If such a change does come about, there's going to be a fairly swift bloodbath as hundreds of properties go up for sale or return to the residential rental market all at once.

jamesthepeach · 19-06-2017 02:58PM

Graham wrote: »

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see something similar either mandated centrally by government/LAs or introduced voluntarily by AirBnB. As you correctly state, it's happened in other markets.

If such a change does come about, there's going to be a fairly swift bloodbath as hundreds of properties go up for sale or return to the residential rental market all at once.

Airbnb is far from the only way to let short term. It is the most well known so when people say they are going short term they just say airbnb.
However it will be a mix of methods.

Ms Doubtfire1 · 19-06-2017 03:00PM

Graham wrote: »

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see something similar either mandated centrally by government/LAs or introduced voluntarily by AirBnB. As you correctly state, it's happened in other markets.

If such a change does come about, there's going to be a fairly swift bloodbath as hundreds of properties go up for sale or return to the residential rental market all at once.

agreed. But, as such, if the supply is(becomes) higher than the demand, prices will drop. So will rents as more people will be buying...until the next best thing pops up.

Graham · 19-06-2017 03:05PM

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

agreed. But, as such, if the supply is(becomes) higher than the demand, prices will drop. So will rents as more people will be buying...until the next best thing pops up.

My thoughts exactly, I'd expect a very swift re-adjustment and a raft of landlords forced to accept rents significantly below current rates.

aluminium · 19-06-2017 03:34PM

I'll take students / workers monday to friday. (out friday morning).
Weekend lettings through craigs list, done deal, and a few b and b owners out west who would send some weekend tenants to me.

I or one of the family would keep the boxroom free for when we need it or just to keep an eye on the tenants.

Mortgage is paid up. No more 50% tax.

there will be a little more work involved - but then I wont be losing half of my income to tax.

Back in the day the average worker was paying three quarters of his overtime in tax. So overtime work stopped and the nixer economy kicked in.

the same thing will happen now with landlords.

And Fianna Fail wants a yearly NCT for rented houses?

19-06-2017 04:42PM

Graham wrote: »

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see something similar either mandated centrally by government/LAs or introduced voluntarily by AirBnB. As you correctly state, it's happened in other markets.

If such a change does come about, there's going to be a fairly swift bloodbath as hundreds of properties go up for sale or return to the residential rental market all at once.

Or they just ignore the rule as enforcement will be tiny. Using sites other than airbnb will also be an option.

Graham · 19-06-2017 04:47PM

Johnathan Mealy Lumberjack wrote: »

Or they just ignore the rule as enforcement will be tiny.

AirBnB have been only too happy to cooperate where it has either been mandated or it looks like it's going to be mandated.

Let's face it, if you're kicked off AirBnB there's no other comparable sized marketplace to turn too other than scrabbling about with small ads while trying to fly under the radar.

Baby01032012 · 19-06-2017 05:23PM

Johnathan Mealy Lumberjack wrote: »

Or they just ignore the rule as enforcement will be tiny. Using sites other than airbnb will also be an option.

I can't link to it however there was a case reported today where north Dublin county council is enforcing a case where a house was being used full time for short term lets without planning permission.

Previously the only case was that apartment in temple bar. I thought house was safe enough as not in a multi unit development no head lease rules and no more than 4 rooms so I thought no planning permission required but I was obviously wrong as the council are enforcing it.

Graham · 19-06-2017 05:27PM

Baby01032012 wrote: »

I can't link to it however there was a case reported today where north Dublin county council is enforcing a case where a house was being used full time for short term lets without planning permission.

If that's the case I'm thinking of, over-crowding/fire-safety were the underlying drivers of the official action.

Graham · 19-06-2017 05:29PM

aluminium wrote: »

I'll take students / workers monday to friday. (out friday morning).
Weekend lettings through craigs list, done deal, and a few b and b owners out west who would send some weekend tenants to me.

I or one of the family would keep the boxroom free for when we need it or just to keep an eye on the tenants.

Mortgage is paid up. No more 50% tax.

What makes you think the above wouldn't be taxed?

Murrisk · 19-06-2017 06:56PM

Graham wrote: »

AirBnB have been only too happy to cooperate where it has either been mandated or it looks like it's going to be mandated.

Let's face it, if you're kicked off AirBnB there's no other comparable sized marketplace to turn too other than scrabbling about with small ads while trying to fly under the radar.

Exactly, if you're trying not to be noticed, that also means less business.

davindub · 19-06-2017 07:46PM

Baby01032012 wrote: »

I can't link to it however there was a case reported today where north Dublin county council is enforcing a case where a house was being used full time for short term lets without planning permission.

Previously the only case was that apartment in temple bar. I thought house was safe enough as not in a multi unit development no head lease rules and no more than 4 rooms so I thought no planning permission required but I was obviously wrong as the council are enforcing it.

The owner needs to live there as well to be considered residential use.

4ensic15 · 19-06-2017 07:51PM

davindub wrote: »

The owner needs to live there as well to be considered residential use.

The owner does not need to live there for it to residential use. Holiday letting and long term letting are considered different uses. Long term letting and owner occupation are the same planning use.
A B & B of 4 bedrooms is allowed if the owner lives there but a short term self catering arrangement is not a B & B so the exemption would not apply.

aluminium · 19-06-2017 07:52PM

Graham wrote: »

What makes you think the above wouldn't be taxed?

As stated earlier, my wife and I would "separate" and this house would be her primary home.

As my kids all travel or are in final year of college, they would have permanent use of the box room to come and go as they please. The only time the property would be let out as a complete unit would be during the summer months.

Allowing for expenses any taxes due would of course be paid........

davindub · 19-06-2017 07:59PM

4ensic15 wrote: »

The owner does not need to live there for it to residential use. Holiday letting and long term letting are considered different uses. Long term letting and owner occupation are the same planning use.
A B & B of 4 bedrooms is allowed if the owner lives there but a short term self catering arrangement is not a B & B so the exemption would not apply.

Thats the exemption the other poster was referring to, she was wondering why it didn't apply to the airBnB property as it had less than 4 bedrooms. The owner needs to be living there as well.

4ensic15 · 19-06-2017 08:37PM

davindub wrote: »

Thats the exemption the other poster was referring to, she was wondering why it didn't apply to the airBnB property as it had less than 4 bedrooms. The owner needs to be living there as well.

Nothing in the regulations about the owner living in the house.

S.I. No. 600/2001 - Planning and Development Regulations, 2001
Development consisting of the use of not more than 4 bedrooms in a house, where each bedroom is used for the accommodation of not more than 4 persons as overnight guest accommodation, shall be exempted development for the purposes of the Act, provided that such development would not contravene a condition attached to a permission under the Act or be inconsistent with any use specified or included in such a permission.

davindub · 19-06-2017 09:33PM

Thats a statutory instrument. You'll need to look at the planning and development acts 2000 and amendments, SI's and caselaw.

But the effect of that instrument is....if you have residential planning permission and are meeting those requirements and start to operate a B&B with less than 4 bedrooms, you do not require planning permission.

I actually don't have time this week, but if you are interested read the entire act. The caselaw is very important as well as are the development plans.

4ensic15 · 19-06-2017 09:42PM

davindub wrote: »

Thats a statutory instrument. You'll need to look at the planning and development acts 2000 and amendments, SI's and caselaw.

But the effect of that instrument is....if you have residential planning permission and are meeting those requirements and start to operate a B&B with less than 4 bedrooms, you do not require planning permission.

I actually don't have time this week, but if you are interested read the entire act. The caselaw is very important as well as are the development plans.

The act allows for exemptions by statutory instrument. CAn you quote any section of any act or Si which backs up your statement?

Graham · 19-06-2017 09:42PM

Baby01032012 wrote: »

I can't link to it however there was a case reported today where north Dublin county council is enforcing a case where a house was being used full time for short term lets without planning permission.

Looks like that wasn't the fire-safety case I was thinking of:

Fingal County Council has started enforcement action against the owner of a property in Malahide following complaints the house was being used exclusively for short-term lettings on Airbnb.

The case is one of three live cases before the local authority at the moment......

Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/action-against-dublin-landlord-over-airbnb-after-neighbours-complain-1.3124316

davindub · 19-06-2017 09:51PM

4ensic15 wrote: »

The act allows for exemptions by statutory instrument. CAn you quote any section of any act or Si which backs up your statement?

4ensic15 wrote: »

The owner does not need to live there for it to residential use. Holiday letting and long term letting are considered different uses. Long term letting and owner occupation are the same planning use.
A B & B of 4 bedrooms is allowed if the owner lives there but a short term self catering arrangement is not a B & B so the exemption would not apply.

Can You?

Look I told you I don't have time this week, its actually not as simple as linking to the act, but I'll get you started, it centers on the underlying planning permission not the exemption, this is the common tread with planning cases, you start with what the property does have planning permission for, apply the exemption on top of that.

4ensic15 · 20-06-2017 08:17AM

davindub wrote: »

Can You?

Look I told you I don't have time this week, its actually not as simple as linking to the act, but I'll get you started, it centers on the underlying planning permission not the exemption, this is the common tread with planning cases, you start with what the property does have planning permission for, apply the exemption on top of that.

Making a proposition and then telling people to verify it by reading the legislation and the case law, without citing cases is nonsense. That is like saying a guard must have his hat on to make a valid arrest and if you don't believe me, look at all the case-law and books.

murphaph · 20-06-2017 11:20AM

Yup. I often wondered about the B&B clause. I know it makes no mention of owner occupancy.

@davindub: In your opinion, would it be forbidden under law for me to buy 2 halves of a semi-d, live in one half and turn the other half into guest accommodation, going over in the mornings to make up rooms and cook breakfasts?

What about if I also turn my own half into a B&B and "extend" into the other half (but it still being strictly speaking a different property)?

Michael D Not Higgins · 20-06-2017 11:37AM

4ensic15 wrote: »

Nothing in the regulations about the owner living in the house.

S.I. No. 600/2001 - Planning and Development Regulations, 2001
Development consisting of the use of not more than 4 bedrooms in a house, where each bedroom is used for the accommodation of not more than 4 persons as overnight guest accommodation, shall be exempted development for the purposes of the Act, provided that such development would not contravene a condition attached to a permission under the Act or be inconsistent with any use specified or included in such a permission.

My reading of that last bit is that without living in it, it would constitute a change of use and would need planning permission.

davindub · 20-06-2017 02:41PM

4ensic15 wrote: »

Making a proposition and then telling people to verify it by reading the legislation and the case law, without citing cases is nonsense. That is like saying a guard must have his hat on to make a valid arrest and if you don't believe me, look at all the case-law and books.

But it is like that. Either you know it or you don't.

Can you not explain yourself in the way you are asking me to do so? You are pretending to be the expert? Prove it. You have stated very clearly above that the owner must live there. You can now attempt to prove that. Take as long as you need.

If you are confused about it, ask nicely in future, given your behaviour I won't explain it for you personally, but someone else might.

Michael D Not Higgins · 20-06-2017 02:47PM

davindub wrote: »

But it is like that. Either you know it or you don't.

Can you not explain yourself in the way you are asking me to do so? You are pretending to be the expert? Prove it. You have stated very clearly above that the owner must live there. You can now attempt to prove that. Take as long as you need.

If you are confused about it, ask nicely in future, given your behaviour I won't explain it for you personally, but someone else might.

That's enough now. Take the argument to PM if you can't discuss this without a row.

short term letting

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