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Ned Flanagan

135

Comments

  • #62
    Irish Raven
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭Irish Raven


    Huh......some dude pulled on another riders handlebars??


  • #63
    DKmac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 119 ✭✭DKmac


    Had a similar experience in bohermeen moving up behind a club mate when some bell end pushed me out by putting his hand on my bars. Luckily I stayed up but was completely baffled as to why you would do that. I don't mind a nudge or a bump but don't touch another riders bars that's just stupid.

    Limit numbers to 80
    Longer races min 70km
    Anthony Walsh had a decent suggestion of an A1 rider in the bunch. They could act as a commisaire and see most of what goes on and actively tell lads to calm the **** down and cop on. Only thing is I doubt your get many a1s willing to take the risk of being taken out by a moron.


  • #64
    Miklos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Miklos


    Touching another cyclists handlebars is so unbelievably stupid. What did the good lord give us elbows for?


  • #65
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Miklos wrote: »
    Touching another cyclists handlebars is so unbelievably stupid. What did the good lord give us elbows for?

    Apparently to signal to other riders that we are not as strong as we thought we were and could they come up and take a turn on front :pac:


  • #66
    cipo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭cipo


    happyhappy wrote: »
    You hit the nail on the head .......The same guy that was shouting and roaring in bohermeen just before a crash there was at it again today. Sure everyone at the crash today was talking about it.

    Could this be reported to CI commisaires?? I'm emailing them tomorrow just a general mail about the crash but if anyone saw it / knows the circumstances then they need to know as much as possible.


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  • #67
    Arthurdaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 755 ✭✭✭Arthurdaly


    Nothing new here really. If the race had been another two laps the outcome would most likely be the same. It was an easy course which probably explains the high numbers and little chance of dropping riders.

    The problem here is down to riders, lack of experience, poor bike handling and in some cases stupidity. It is afterall a novice category and for many riders it may have been their first race of the season. IMO its not a sport where you can just decide to turn up a few times a year and hope for the best in a crazy bunch sprint.

    Hope all the injured parties heal well.


  • #68
    Inquitus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,778 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    Arthurdaly wrote: »
    Nothing new here really. If the race had been another two laps the outcome would most likely be the same. It was an easy course which probably explains the high numbers and little chance of dropping riders.

    The problem here is down to riders, lack of experience, poor bike handling and in some cases stupidity. It is afterall a novice category and for many riders it may have been their first race of the season. IMO its not a sport where you can just decide to turn up a few times a year and hope for the best in a crazy bunch sprint.

    Hope all the injured parties heal well.

    Personally, I just think there are far too many people out there willing to risk serious injury to themselves or other people in pursuit of 9th place in an A4 gallop. The people trying to sneak up to the front at these inopportune moments are usually too weak to do it when one is supposed to, so charge up the far side of white lines on hills or corners, or dive bomb down the inside at corners.


  • #69
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    DKmac wrote: »
    Limit numbers to 80
    Longer races min 70km
    Anthony Walsh had a decent suggestion of an A1 rider in the bunch. They could act as a commisaire and see most of what goes on and actively tell lads to calm the **** down and cop on. Only thing is I doubt your get many a1s willing to take the risk of being taken out by a moron.

    Another suggestion you could have is that the comms put out any riders flagging behind. It might be A4 but on a longer race, as someone said, there is a worry they will sit up and get in the way of other groups going hell for leather.

    We used to do it in the club league where the group would be warned that if caught, they were out of the race and it would be at the comms discretion ie if racers are not racing then they get no points.


  • #70
    Chumpski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 741 ✭✭✭Chumpski


    Fair points. Well, this weekend in Navan, its an 80k race and its much hillier so no excuses this time!

    If anybody saw someone pulling on handlebars I hope they report to cycling Ireland. Thats pretty bloody stupid and I do not want to race with anybody who does this.


  • #71
    JK.BMC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭JK.BMC


    Arthurdaly wrote: »
    Nothing new here really. If the race had been another two laps the outcome would most likely be the same. It was an easy course which probably explains the high numbers and little chance of dropping riders.

    The problem here is down to riders, lack of experience, poor bike handling and in some cases stupidity. It is afterall a novice category and for many riders it may have been their first race of the season. IMO its not a sport where you can just decide to turn up a few times a year and hope for the best in a crazy bunch sprint.

    Hope all the injured parties heal well.

    Unfortunately this indeed keeps happening - I believe it is a common occurrence also in other countries too such as in the UK/USA where inexperienced riders get caught up in incidents in "cat 4" style events. Of course, the sport has dangers and it wouldn't be the same without that element of danger and risk/reward etc. And we must remember that crashes happen at all levels, right up to the very best pro-tour riders.

    However, in Ireland we don't have a great reputation for dealing with problems/issues - often we deny things or it gets too late and something very bad happens and all the hand wringing and sincere head scratching happens. ALSO - quite a few A4s are not necessarily novice riders, in that plenty have been in the category for 2,3 maybe 4 seasons. In fact, A4 numbers are quite big given the changes in the points structure. Everybody finds their natural "level" in time and for many riders A4 is as good as it gets. No disrespect in that - but it is going to take some sort of strong intervention from CI here to insist on better standards, either via club accreditation or some mandatory rules on field sizes and race lengths among other things.

    There are some incredibly strong and hard working/training riders in A4 - but not everybody has race craft, bike handling and tactical awareness. Those things are not immediately innate and need to be learned/practiced. This should be drilled into riders at club level as soon as a licence is taken out. I would say no club affiliation , no A4 licence for starters.


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  • #72
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    happyhappy wrote: »
    All ambulances except the order of Malta one which was following the race and which couldn't cope


    Right, was going to stay out of this but have to say the Order of Malta ambulance and crew were excellent. Very professional and well trained. They "coped" admirably.
    The HSE ambulances were called as they could not transport all the casualties to hospital. They triaged the injuries well and too the 2 who were the most urgent. Calling the HSE ambulances was part of their protocol and was done via ambulance control as was their destination. They ensured all casualties waiting were both stable and being looked after.
    Slag off and criticise who who like but the Order of Malta were excellent.


  • #73
    A4droppedalot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14 ✭A4droppedalot


    Some views from the A1 blog as follows...:

    "The crashes in A4 racing have gotten out of hand.

    It shouldn't be so dangerous.

    We shouldn't lose riders from our beautiful sport because they are afraid.

    A few simple suggestions to make A4 racing safer:

    1. Mandatory period of club racing prior to commencing open racing.

    2. Restricted numbers in A4 Races.

    3. A1 Riders required to "coach" as an active participant in one A4 race per season (riders need to learn from someone with experience)

    4. Harder courses.

    5. Approved courses for A4's (wide, safe roads) (It is a learning category after all)

    6. Commitment to having a minimum number of marshals and adequate race support. Should be submitted as part of safety assessment prior to event getting approval.

    7. Longer Races

    8. Must pass a bike handling course prior to being granted an A4 license.


    Just a few simple suggestions but I think they could make a big difference.

    Feel free to take the suggestions and post them on your club facebook or social media.

    I do feel it's time a change was made in A4 racing.

    If now isn't the time, when is?

    If you aren't the person, who is?"


  • #74
    Irish Raven
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭Irish Raven


    Alot of a4 bashing and how to change a4 racing.....but the a3 bunch had an equally big spill, resulting in the a1/2 race being cancelled....course selection played a major part. This race is known as a "crit" because its an annual spill fest with big bunches!!


  • #75
    dragratchet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 692 ✭✭✭dragratchet


    Irish Raven wrote: »
    Alot of a4 bashing and how to change a4 racing.....but the a3 bunch had an equally big spill, resulting in the a1/2 race being cancelled....course selection played a major part. This race is known as a "crit" because its an annual spill fest with big bunches!!

    5 riders went down in the a3 sprint, that wasnt an equally big spill.


  • #76
    Irish Raven
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭Irish Raven


    dragratchet wrote:
    5 riders went down in the a3 sprint, that wasnt an equally big spill.


    5?? Jeez...heard it was alot more ....still a crash all the same, in the same place as the a4s. So is that bad bike handling im the a3 bunch too? Im not knocking a3s either, r a4s....i think the course, and espec the finish wasnt suitable for any kind of bunch sprint. Experienced or not.

    Ive been in a4, a3, a2/1 races in the past 2years and have seen alot of spills, bad bike handling....i reckon the a4 bunch crash was prob some numpty acting the pro, and it caused a domino effect.

    IMO bike handling and group riding should be practiced by all cats.


  • #77
    dragratchet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 692 ✭✭✭dragratchet


    Irish Raven wrote: »
    5?? Jeez...heard it was alot more ....still a crash all the same, in the same place as the a4s. So is that bad bike handling im the a3 bunch too? Im not knocking a3s either, r a4s....i think the course, and espec the finish wasnt suitable for any kind of bunch sprint. Experienced or not.

    Ive been in a4, a3, a2/1 races in the past 2years and have seen alot of spills, bad bike handling....i reckon the a4 bunch crash was prob some numpty acting the pro, and it caused a domino effect.

    IMO bike handling and group riding should be practiced by all cats.


    cant speak for the a4 crash as i didnt see it but i was directly behind the a3 one and imo it wasnt down to anyone being at fault. sprints are just dangerous and accidents happen, particularly on narrow roads. your right though, fingers shouldnt just be pointed at a4s. many lads i know who race a4 are incredibly skillful and copped on riders.. dont like to hear them collectively getting it in the neck on here when its down to a few careless individuals/course layout/weather etc.


  • #78
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Love the arm chair experts !
    A4 crash did not happen at the finish
    A3 crash did not happen in the same place


  • #79
    Star hurl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭Star hurl


    How do they things over in Britain I'm sure I seen on their webpage that you have to do some type of training days before open racing . As someone who hopes to race a4 next year I would be only to happy to do this .


  • #80
    happyhappy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 268 ✭✭happyhappy


    RobFowl wrote: »
    Right, was going to stay out of this but have to say the Order of Malta ambulance and crew were excellent. Very professional and well trained. They "coped" admirably.
    The HSE ambulances were called as they could not transport all the casualties to hospital. They triaged the injuries well and too the 2 who were the most urgent. Calling the HSE ambulances was part of their protocol and was done via ambulance control as was their destination. They ensured all casualties waiting were both stable and being looked after.
    Slag off and criticise who who like but the Order of Malta were excellent.

    I wasn't slagging them off at all, you've taken what I said out of context. I was replying to a post about paying for ambulances (which was a joke that I fell for!).

    The ambulance personnel there needed help from other ambulances because of the amount of injured people. Where did you get from what I said that they weren't professional? As someone who stopped and assisted the ambulance personnel, the comms and race organisers at this incident while others got back on or cycled off, you are completely misreading me.


  • #81
    Irish Raven
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭Irish Raven


    RobFowl wrote:
    Love the arm chair experts ! A4 crash did not happen at the finish A3 crash did not happen in the same place


    Cheers for the input and correction....im no expert, and not in an arm chair either,

    so .....from speaking to peeps in the a3 n a4 race i assumed it happened quite close to the finish line, inside last couple of km's or so?? And judging on peoples comments in this thread....run in was on a narrow road, cars parked on right side....


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  • #82
    Sarz91
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Sarz91


    Star hurl wrote: »
    How do they things over in Britain I'm sure I seen on their webpage that you have to do some type of training days before open racing . As someone who hopes to race a4 next year I would be only to happy to do this .

    There are no requirements to racing in the UK unless something has changed in the last year. The thing I found with racing in the UK was the field size was a lot smaller. This was mainly due to the fact that you had 2 midweek races in most areas, normally a Tuesday and Thursday crit, and then a few races over the weekend. There were also a number of midweek time trials. I don't think I ever rode in a group bigger than 50 or 60 while riding in the UK.


  • #83
    Derrydingle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 367 ✭✭Derrydingle


    A4 racing should be limited to 80 riders it should be no lower then 70k and stop the one day licences


  • #84
    Taxuser1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭Taxuser1


    I think all the measures in the world are not gonna stop some lunatic from thinking he's the world's best. if the grabbing of a riders handlebars was found to be the reason then I hope that rider has his license taken off him for a period and some sort of anger management course completed.

    there are always idiots on bikes. Riding the Junior Tour a good while back I saw a Welsh lad switching a rider on a downhill section on purpose after an argument which took out the whole bunch. I saw an A2 lad from Waterford dashing for every available gap in the bunch on Sunday not even caring about who's line he was crossing and this wasn't even readying for a sprint.

    my tuppence on racing is that you've a lot of old hands in the bunch these days who have enjoyed racing for years and could give some leadership in the beginner races. it's not a bad idea having experienced good riders giving advice. Before that I think some basic bike handling like Sprocket Rockets should be offered as a course to anyone taking out a license for the first time. Cycling companies in Ireland are making a lot of money in the industry, most of it coming from first timers. Maybe sponsor a safety campaign aimed at bike handling and etiquette


  • #85
    Stevieg2009
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 388 ✭✭Stevieg2009


    Derrydingle wrote: »
    A4 racing should be limited to 80 riders it should be no lower then 70k and stop the one day licences

    Should all categories not have a limit of 80 the crashes in A3 are just as common and just as bad with massive groups it's like this crash in A4 and your called a Fred crash in other categories and your a hero!!totally agree on the distance issue can't understand why A4 races are not of similar distance to the A3 Group.


  • #86
    Sarz91
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Sarz91


    Weepsie wrote: »
    If this is true, it shouldn't be a period. A ban, end of, no recourse to ever race again. If we were seeing that an on open road, commute we'd be calling it assault.

    This. Again if true it's not like we're playing football and we're talking about a 50/50 challenge where someone got injured. There is no reason to have to pull on someone's handlebars. If true I'd be looking for more than just a ban. I'd be looking for the cost associate with replacing the destroyed frames/components.

    I've been in a number of crashes. Some my fault some were others fault. I've never blamed anyone as no one meant to end up on the ground and I'm sure they're as sorry as I am limping into the ambulance/back to the car. This situation, if true, is different and completely deliberate.


  • #87
    Derrydingle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 367 ✭✭Derrydingle


    We also need to start reporting riders. people make mistakes in races and that's part of the sport but lads who are shouting at others and trying to use bully tactics is not on. It was going on to much on Sunday it was not nice to see and you just knew someone was going to do something silly and take us all down. It's only a matter of time before someone is very badly hurt or open road races could even be stopped which no one wants.


  • #88
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    Derrydingle wrote: »
    We also need to start reporting riders. people make mistakes in races and that's part of the sport but lads who are shouting at others and trying to use bully tactics is not on. It was going on to much on Sunday it was not nice to see and you just knew someone was going to do something silly and take us all down. It's only a matter of time before someone is very badly hurt or open road races could even be stopped which no one wants.

    I believe a broken leg and multiple broken collar bones count as "very badly hurt".


  • #89
    Arthurdaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 755 ✭✭✭Arthurdaly


    Stevieg2009 wrote:
    Should all categories not have a limit of 80 the crashes in A3 are just as common and just as bad with massive groups it's like this crash in A4 and your called a Fred crash in other categories and your a hero!!totally agree on the distance issue can't understand why A4 races are not of similar distance to the A3 Group.


    Disagree with this. You don't see carnage like this in other categories, similar A4 incident earlier in the year with some serious injuries.


  • #90
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    happyhappy wrote: »
    Where did you get from what I said that they weren't professional? As someone who stopped and assisted the ambulance personnel, the comms and race organisers at this incident while others got back on or cycled off, you are completely misreading me.

    You said they couldn't cope.
    If you meant they extra help to transport the casualties due to the number that is true, but they coped extremely well and made sure all were cared for.

    I was just behind accident and avoided it wit a front wheel wheelie, didn't see what caused it and don't think its helpful to speculate. We were maybe 3 k from the finish and the A3 crash was at some other location, no idea where tbh.
    Personally I was highly impressed with the Order of Malta, was also highly impressed with the commisaire on scene who was calm and measured,.
    The number of cyclists who stopped to help rather than push by and get almost certain points was simply phenomenal. Every one on the ground had at least 2-3 fellow cyclists around helping out. Really shows how close the community is and how good cyclists and people in general are.
    The locals who rushed out with water, blankets and offering help (even lifting bikes and keeping them safe) was also great.
    All in all I wouldn't rush to criticism, far more to praise on Sunday.
    Well done to all and to those injured, get well soon.


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  • #91
    oflahero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 765 ✭✭✭oflahero


    +1 on above - it's worth pointing out that a lot of reports said ' it was so bad, only 9 finished' or 'only 15 finished', which made it sound like the Somme - when in fact it was because everyone basically stopped to help.


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