Ned Flanagan

Taxuser1

hope all the riders are ok after today's spill(s) with no serious injury. No info on what happened and it happened well before the deluge of rain but there seemed to be riders still down well over an hour after,

dahat

Apparently only 9 A4 riders finished, unsure how true this is.

magicbastarder

that was a windy day for a race.

nilhg

Two of our lads were third and fourth, the others finished up on the ground, but at least they didn't have to join the 6 riders who are reported to be in Naas Hospital.

As to what happened there's loads of fingers being pointed but this isn't the place for it, if a rider acting the dick is proven to be responsible, then appropriate action should be taken.

dahat

nilhg wrote: »

Two of our lads were third and fourth, the others finished up on the ground, but at least they didn't have to join the 6 riders who are reported to be in Naas Hospital.

As to what happened there's loads of fingers being pointed but this isn't the place for it, if a rider acting the dick is proven to be responsible, then appropriate action should be taken.

Jesus, that must have scary.

Was there a crash at same point last year?

Chumpski

Was at the back of the bunch and heard it happen before i saw it. Big pile up. Most of the bunch came down. Hopefully all are ok and will recover soon.

I did not have a good feeling about the bunch sprint today. I thought road was too narrow for a combo of how many riders in the bunch and some of the dangerous riding i saw on the right hand side of the road throughout. I kept well out of it ill be honest. It was my first race of the year (and first in over a decade) so i was happy to ride around in the bunch and get used to racing again.

I have no idea what happened in the crash by the way. I think about 20 A4s finished.

nilhg

dahat wrote: »

Jesus, that must have scary.

Was there a crash at same point last year?

Check Sean Rowe's photos for a photo of the aftermath of the crash, it's in the comments.

Crash last year (or maybe the year before) was a little farther up towards the finish.

My own tuppence worth (for what it's worth) is that the road is safe enough for a small sized bunch but the course is flat and fast and the race is too short to spread things out, it's only 47km/1hr 11mins, we run league races longer than that.

dahat

nilhg wrote: »

Check Sean Rowe's photos for a photo of the aftermath of the crash, it's in the comments.

Crash last year (or maybe the year before) was a little farther up towards the finish.

My own tuppence worth (for what it's worth) is that the road is safe enough for a small sized bunch but the course is flat and fast and the race is too short to spread things out, it's only 47km/1hr 11mins, we run league races longer than that.

Agreed,47km is savage short, at this time of year races should perhaps be 60-70km maybe. Might shake up the bunch a bit or maybe another 10km to 80km actually.

happyhappy

6 to hospital, defo a good few broken collar bones. One guy on a spinal board as a precaution. Hope all are ok and recover.

Loads of broken bikes.

Only 5 were ahead of the crash, the rest of the finishers were the handful who got thru.

The A1 race was stopped on their last lap as it couldn't get past the ambulances.


I'm still trying to calm down after what happened because some people need to really start thinking about what they are at. That today was totally avoidable.

marathon50

Nine riders in Nass hospital I hear, my brother been one of them. Looks like a broken collarbone and a bad cut on eyebrow. Was down to do the Marmotte in 3 weeks time, bad luck.
I just missed out coming down by the skin of my teeth. I did not see much
point in finishing the it was total mayhem and too many riders needed help.
What caused it I do not know. In my own opinion I thought the A4 far race was too
big for the course I would give a guess not too far off 100. The distance was way too short under 50km with riders at peak
fitness this time of year on a flat course like today it was bound to end with a huge bunch coming to the finish. Throw in the wind and rain and something had to happen. I wish all injured riders a speedy recovery.

happyhappy

dahat wrote: »

Agreed,47km is savage short, at this time of year races should perhaps be 60-70km maybe. Might shake up the bunch a bit or maybe another 10km to 80km actually.

Totally agreee. They shortened the race from the advertised 4 lapse. . If I'd know it was 47k I wouldn't have wasted my Sunday travelling to it.

It seems trivial after what happened but by bringing it under 50k only the first 6 get points.

dahat

Hypothetically speaking in another realm what happened at the front?

bikeguy123

Why was the race shortened to 3 laps in the beginning?

Plenty of guys travelled a decent distance for a race that should be longer than a club race.

No reason an A4 race can't be as long as an A3 race, trim the fat. The race was too short and too many had energy to burn towards the end.

There was a support car passing the bunch dangerously at one stage and had to pull into the bunch to avoid an oncoming car, ffs...

No rolling marshals, cars travelling at speed towards the bunch.

koutoubia

happyhappy wrote: »

bones. One guy on a spinal board as a precaution.
Loads of broken bikes.


.

Two of our lads came down.
I believe one of the spinal board but afaik got the all clear withjust a broken bone.
The other lad broke his bike and now ,sadly, has to go shopping for a new frame/bike.

Inquitus

The aftermath

dahat

happyhappy wrote: »

Totally agreee. They shortened the race from the advertised 4 lapse. . If I'd know it was 47k I wouldn't have wasted my Sunday travelling to it.

It seems trivial after what happened but by bringing it under 50k only the first 6 get points.

Last race I did was 52km and I felt another lap would have made it a good test.
I won't be doing any races over short distances as a rule of thumb now, far too risky even though it would suit me.

happyhappy

bikeguy123 wrote: »

Why was the race shortened to 3 laps in the beginning?

Plenty of guys travelled a decent distance for a race that should be longer than a club race.

No reason an A4 race can't be as long as an A3 race, trim the fat. The race was too short and too many had energy to burn towards the end.

There was a support car passing the bunch dangerously at one stage and had to pull into the bunch to avoid an oncoming car, ffs...

No rolling marshals, cars travelling at speed towards the bunch.

What the support car did today was appalling and it only through pure luck that he didn't wipe out some of the bunch when he pulled into it when a car drove against him when he was on the wrong side of the road.

Stevieg2009

happyhappy wrote: »

Totally agreee. They shortened the race from the advertised 4 lapse. . If I'd know it was 47k I wouldn't have wasted my Sunday travelling to it.

It seems trivial after what happened but by bringing it under 50k only the first 6 get points.

Totally agree there is nearly no point running an A4 race at that distance I guess it's a money thing really as for the crash we will probably never know what happened but the roaring and unnecessary shouting from some rider a few Km's from the finish was crazy caused nothing but panic might be easier if people stayed quiet and just rode there race!!!if your stuck down the inside and can't get out well hard luck suck it up and wait

bikeguy123

I don't agree with posting photos of injured riders on fb either. Not cool..

happyhappy

Stevieg2009 wrote: »

Totally agree there is nearly no point running an A4 race at that distance I guess it's a money thing really as for the crash we will probably never know what happened but the roaring and unnecessary shouting from some rider a few Km's from the finish was crazy caused nothing but panic might be easier if people stayed quiet and just rode there race!!!if your stuck down the inside and can't get out well hard luck suck it up and wait

You hit the nail on the head .......The same guy that was shouting and roaring in bohermeen just before a crash there was at it again today. Sure everyone at the crash today was talking about it.

Inquitus

bikeguy123 wrote: »

I don't agree with posting photos of injured riders on fb either. Not cool..

Even Stickybottle has done and continues to do so, see below link as an example:

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/dramatic-photos-by-brendan-culleton-of-boyne-gp-womens-race-huge-crash-and-aftermath/

bikeguy123

Inquitus wrote:

Even Stickybottle has done and continues to do so, see below link as an example:

That's from 3 years ago. Doesn't make it okay to post

Inquitus

bikeguy123 wrote: »

That's from 3 years ago. Doesn't make it okay to post

I disagree, respectfully. We race bikes, we crash, people take photos regardless of whether we crash or not.

bikeguy123

Inquitus wrote:

I disagree, respectfully. We race bikes, we crash, people take photos regardless of whether we crash or not.

Were you involved today?

Derrydingle

Why was it only just over 3 laps I seen on fb that the HQ was moved but only found out at start line and not the sign on about the laps it was pure madness out there today

Taxuser1

the majority of the blame seems to be aimed at the promoters for having a shorter distance. some say that another lap would have strung it out. I would put forward that riders make races, distance shouldn't be an issue. 3 separate breaks and a peloton in the A1/A2 race in the first 25 kilometres because it was eyeballs out from the start. yet there was still a bunch gallop for the minor honours til race was stopped. you'll always have a gallop. I dare say an extra lap or two in the A4 might have seen stronger lads go up the road but you'd still have a bunch sprinting it out.

Colm_D

Sounds like a rough day had my more than a few. It happens unfortunately, that's bike racing........
But on the plus side;

magicbastarder

i hope the guy on the motorbike was disqualified.

Chumpski

Taxuser1 wrote: »

the majority of the blame seems to be aimed at the promoters for having a shorter distance. some say that another lap would have strung it out. I would put forward that riders make races, distance shouldn't be an issue. 3 separate breaks and a peloton in the A1/A2 race in the first 25 kilometres because it was eyeballs out from the start. yet there was still a bunch gallop for the minor honours til race was stopped. you'll always have a gallop. I dare say an extra lap or two in the A4 might have seen stronger lads go up the road but you'd still have a bunch sprinting it out.

I agree to a point. There were a few factors in that crash yesterday. Were the organisers at fault 100%? Nope - the riders themselves have to accept some responsibility too (I was one).

1. Nobody strong enough to get out of the bunch in A4.
2. The number of riders in the race (est. 80 - 100).
3. The risk taking by a small number of riders in that bunch.
4. The width of the roads.
5. The length of the race, 3.5 laps, 47k.
6. The stupid (official?) car in the middle of the race trying to pass out the bunch.
7. No slowing down of oncoming traffic - not that i saw anyways.

Hopefully all the guys injured are recovering well this morning and are not too sore.

Apologies to the A1/A2 race which got called off due to the incident.

dragratchet

its very difficult to avoid crashes on circuits with finishes like this. often making the lower grade races longer results in the bunch riding conservatively for most of the race leading to a bunch gallop at the end anyway... at which point the weaker riders are absolutely swingin which can contribute to crashes.

in my opinion the finishing straight was too narrow for a flat race such as this. i saw the carnage from the a4 sprint and elected to drop back in the a3 bunch about 500 metres from home only to see the same thing happen ahead of me.. i didnt see any sketchy riding in the a3 bunch, everyone seemed to know what they were at. The crash was simply down to 30 competitive lads going for it on a road that couldnt support that type of sprint.. a reduced bunch sprint, yeah no problem, but it was never going to be a reduced bunch on a circuit like that.

apart from that a really well run and enjoyable event.

Taxuser1

Chumpski wrote: »

I agree to a point. There were a few factors in that crash yesterday. Were the organisers at fault 100%? Nope - the riders themselves have to accept some responsibility too (I was one).

1. Nobody strong enough to get out of the bunch in A4.
2. The number of riders in the race (est. 80 - 100).
3. The risk taking by a small number of riders in that bunch.
4. The width of the roads.
5. The length of the race, 3.5 laps, 47k.
6. The stupid (official?) car in the middle of the race trying to pass out the bunch.
7. No slowing down of oncoming traffic - not that i saw anyways.

Hopefully all the guys injured are recovering well this morning and are not too sore.

Apologies to the A1/A2 race which got called off due to the incident.

I take it the A4s will send us the signing on entry which went to pay for all the ambulances?

Chumpski

Taxuser1 wrote: »

I take it the A4s will send us the signing on entry which went to pay for all the ambulances?

Not sure how helpful or constructive that comment is. It was an accident at end of the day. Avoidable? Yes, ive already outlined the many reasons for it happening. Did anybody who ended up on the tarmac or in the hospital with road rash or worse want to be there? Nope.

07Lapierre

Taxuser1 wrote: »

I take it the A4s will send us the signing on entry which went to pay for all the ambulances?

Nice! :mad:

happyhappy

Taxuser1 wrote: »

I take it the A4s will send us the signing on entry which went to pay for all the ambulances?

All ambulances except the order of Malta one which was following the race and which couldn't cope were HSE and not paid for by your €15 euro taxuser but by the taxpayer so don't worry.

Your €15 paid for the ambulance behind your race which would give you the same treatment if you had hit the deck.

dragratchet

happyhappy wrote: »

All ambulances except the order of Malta one which was following the race and which couldn't cope were HSE and not paid for by your €15 euro taxuser but by the taxpayer so don't worry.

Your €15 paid for the ambulance behind your race which would give you the same treatment if you had hit the deck.

and the sandwiches... did you get any of the sandwiches?

happyhappy

dragratchet wrote: »

and the sandwiches... did you get any of the sandwiches?

Ha, class! Nope didn't get sambos!

Taxuser1

my forked tongue won't come back in from the hole in my cheek :-)

Just realised the race was the Paddy Flanagan !

JK.BMC

Rode the A3 race - I know these roads well and know the organisers for years.
A3 race was fine - hard racing throughout and generally a well contested affair. Yes there was a crash 100m from the end but I dare say that was nobody's fault but the lads themselves, and I do hope they are all ok. No point talking about wind/rain/roads/cars etc etc ad nauseum if competitive riders just get it slightly wrong in the heat of the moment. Crashes happen. Yes there was driving hailstones and a strong headwind on a slight uphill finish - but all the more reason to keep calm and delay the kick as late as possible. Fairly basic race tactic - and keep out of it, as many riders did - if it didn't suit, which is perfectly good. So a good race in my opinion in A3.

However the post-mortems after these A4 bunch crashes all bring us back to the same point - there is a gang of dangerous/nervous/aggressive riders inhabiting the A4 race groups who ultimately are the cause of the trouble. End of. Seriously. You can make all the excuses in the world - and I hear them in my club and about the place but this all comes down to the behaviour of riders.

It is actually extraordinary the amount of roaring and shouting, fist waving and general hot-headed dicking around that I encounter with the A4s, in places like the Mondello Series, Open handicaps and even in club league races. And that isn't condescension - it's what I see and hear, regularly.
I know a good deal of it is fear and self-preservation but I just wish these guys would have their mid-life crisis in a more dignified and safer way.
Simple example: coming to a junction or sharp bend, I always watch my line and especially the apex/exit from said bend. I have had numerous A4s then start roaring "ah don't be taking me on me inside, jayzus lads!!!" etc when in fact its actually good cornering and holding the racing line at speed.
I got elbowed off my leadout yesterday with 800m to go - but the last thing I would do is roar abuse at the same guy; You just have to suck it up, adjust and keep calm. If you can't get out, then you won't. Nacer Bouhanni does not ride in A4.
This has to be practiced - I suspect very very few A4s actually do this as there is no mandatory safety training/skills course for road racing. But that's another thread in itself

Harrybelafonte

Great post. Mondello is a perfect example of the laziness of A4s and their inability to corner. Many A4s I should say. Usually the loud ones.

Derrydingle

dahat wrote:

Last race I did was 52km and I felt another lap would have made it a good test. I won't be doing any races over short distances as a rule of thumb now, far too risky even though it would suit me.

Most a4 races are around the 50 to 60km only way to get the longer races is to get the points to move up to a3 or I think I maybe wrong if your over the age of 40 you can self upgrade yourself to a3

Stevieg2009

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Great post. Mondello is a perfect example of the laziness of A4s and their inability to corner. Many A4s I should say. Usually the loud ones.

Absolutely spot on loud lads shouting at others to do the work because there only there to hang on to wheels all night god forbid they would ever stick there noses in the wind just once might as well just start the A4 and A3 race together because most lads just want to wait anyway

Harrybelafonte

Stevieg2009 wrote: »

Absolutely spot on loud lads shouting at others to do the work because there only there to hang on to wheels all night god forbid they would ever stick there noses in the wind just once might as well just start the A4 and A3 race together because most lads just want to wait anyway

Of all the races, Mondello is my favourite. I was dying to do it this year. I missed the start, was still putting gloves on as I chased down bunch, caught bunch and straight to front to find the same ten or so lads gunning it on the front for the whole race. The rest just sit in. That day we could have stayed away for the whole race if we'd all worked together. If the usual suspects can keep the bunch away for over 40 minutes, then a proper train would keep the A4s away for the day.

Anyway, wrong race to be ranting about. But it reminds me of teh day I was told to slow down by someone in A4 at Mondello a few years ago. Seriously, why bother.

Chumpski

JK.BMC wrote: »

However the post-mortems after these A4 bunch crashes all bring us back to the same point - there is a gang of dangerous/nervous/aggressive riders inhabiting the A4 race groups who ultimately are the cause of the trouble. End of. Seriously. You can make all the excuses in the world - and I hear them in my club and about the place but this all comes down to the behaviour of riders.

It is actually extraordinary the amount of roaring and shouting, fist waving and general hot-headed dicking around that I encounter with the A4s, in places like the Mondello Series, Open handicaps and even in club league races. And that isn't condescension - it's what I see and hear, regularly.
I know a good deal of it is fear and self-preservation but I just wish these guys would have their mid-life crisis in a more dignified and safer way.
Simple example: coming to a junction or sharp bend, I always watch my line and especially the apex/exit from said bend. I have had numerous A4s then start roaring "ah don't be taking me on me inside, jayzus lads!!!" etc when in fact its actually good cornering and holding the racing line at speed.
I got elbowed off my leadout yesterday with 800m to go - but the last thing I would do is roar abuse at the same guy; You just have to suck it up, adjust and keep calm. If you can't get out, then you won't. Nacer Bouhanni does not ride in A4.
This has to be practiced - I suspect very very few A4s actually do this as there is no mandatory safety training/skills course for road racing. But that's another thread in itself

No argument from me. I did hear a bunch of idiots shouting at times. Shut up and do your race. Let your legs talk, if they can.

Ride safe and dont be an idiot, nobody wants to end up on the tarmac. At best, it will cost all involved money and at worst, health and a trip to the hospital.

Use the right hand side of the road to move up the bunch, only when safe to do so. Dont stay out there and block up the road for other guys who want to move up.

Lets just mention one thing here though. There were plenty of examples of good well behaved and safe A4s in the bunch yesterday. It was a small number of idiots with little regard for well being of others.

Harrybelafonte

Time for the clubs to take responsibility? Not organisers, but those whose members have no concept of racing "etiquette"?

happyhappy

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Time for the clubs to take responsibility? Not organisers, but those whose members have no concept of racing "etiquette"?

Yes

Chumpski

Clubs, yeah. Anybody who goes racing needs to understand basic racing etiquette as you say by becoming experienced in group riding and club racing with smaller numbers involved first.

Individuals, also yeah. Use common sense on the road. Dont take silly chances for a possible minor placing. If you dont know how to bunch sprint, dont try it. You need to be fast and safely aggressive to be good at it. If you have trouble getting out of the bunch into the break, you probably are not fit enough to try it.

Maybe Cycling Ireland too? Capping entries to certain races based on route. Im not sure if that would work. I fully appreciate organizers need to cover costs involved.

buffalo

Chumpski wrote: »

Use the right hand side of the road to move up the bunch, only when safe to do so. Dont stay out there and block up the road for other guys who want to move up.

It's much more efficient to move up the bunch in the bunch. And it's up to the riders behind to find a way to move up, not for anyone in front to move over.

Gekko1

I was in a A4 race up North yesterday. Quite a safe race until the last mile or so of the last lap when a dozen or so riders started white lining on dangerous corners & crests of hills just to get up to the front for a sprint. Do some riders not be aware that the roads are still open to traffic? I was pretty bemused at the lack of moto marshalls who usually do a good job of warning oncoming traffic and in one race told riders that were white lining to move back in. I'm all for riders moving up on the outside but when it is safe to do so but doing it on blind bends & crests of hills is not to be place. Puts us all in danger. I was at boxed in yesterday, had no chance of moving up, so I didn't but witnessed absolute carnage in front of me. Two crashes within 500m of each other.
One complete eejit (not in club colours) was about 5 feet from running into a black Nissan Quasqai, another female driver had to swerve into a ditch to avoid another rider causing damage to her car. Wtf is it all about guys??
This was the second race in a row I have been at where there has been no race briefings from the organisers, not good enough imo. Also, would love to know from CI how many riders have been DQ'd for dangerous riding so far this season!!
I would love to move up the Categories but I ain't putting my life on the line for it

oflahero

I don't know what previous commenters' problem was with the support car passing the bunch. Has a race car never passed you before? They had to jump a couple of groups because of the perennial loons living in the right hand ditch all day.

As regards moving up. There's a constant flow pushing back down the bunch in A4 - the crazies on the right try to move up, won't ride through, then a car comes and the bunch is emotionally blackmailed to let them in. I was stuck just behind halfway all race, mainly because I am rubbish at working through the bunch. As buffalo says, this is the key skill to have.

happyhappy

oflahero wrote: »

I don't know what previous commenters' problem was with the support car passing the bunch. Has a race car never passed you before? They had to jump a couple of groups because of the perennial loons living in the right hand ditch all day.

As regards moving up. There's a constant flow pushing back down the bunch in A4 - the crazies on the right try to move up, won't ride through, then a car comes and the bunch is emotionally blackmailed to let them in. I was stuck just behind halfway all race, mainly because I am rubbish at working through the bunch. As buffalo says, this is the key skill to have.

The race car didn't pass the bunch, it got half way up and was faced with oncoming traffic on the wrong side of the road and 'emotionally blackmailed' the bunch into letting him in the centre of them.

there was no need for the car to move anywhere to jump any groups in the way the driver did. I'm amazed that you think it's ok for a car to do the very action you have a issue with cyclists doing.

oflahero

happyhappy wrote: »

there was no need for the car to move anywhere to jump any groups in the way the driver did. I'm amazed that you think it's ok for a car to do the very action you have a issue with cyclists doing.

A car can pass in a few seconds if riders are where they're supposed to be. It's the riders' fault for not getting out of the way promptly. If a race car needs to pass, it's for a reason.