Girl sectioned after psychiatrist ruled out abortion

AnGaelach · 12-06-2017 07:18PM

crustybla wrote: »

Jesus wept

Over the murder of the unborn?

Anita Blow · 12-06-2017 07:18PM

cnocbui wrote: »

In this instance, can you point to the psychiatrist in question taking steps to convene such a panel?

The article states she was reviewed by a 2nd psychiatrist who subsequently found her not to have a psychological illness and as such the criteria under the Protection of Life Act was not met.

There is a question regarding why/how she was interned. Sectioning someone requires clinical justification. The IT article doesn't go into this at all (understandably I imagine this information is private) but it also helps them put a particular spin on this story. All would've been recorded in the medical notes and the psychiatrist in question would've had their notes reviewed as part of this investigation. Considering they weren't suspended or disciplined, it's reasonable to assume that he/she had a genuine belief at the time that there was an immediate suicidal risk and the internment was adequately justified in the notes.
For a psych patient to be admitted they need to disclose that they have been planning taking their own life, that the plan is credible and that they will do so if they are allowed leave the hospital. It's not unrealistic that the girl did express these concerns

endacl · 12-06-2017 07:21PM

crustybla wrote: »

Jesus wept

AnGaelach wrote: »

Over the murder of the unborn?

No. Over the fact that he's crap at catching maltesers.

cnocbui · 12-06-2017 07:28PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There wasn't a necessity for such a panel to be convened as the POLDPA wasn't invoked in this case.

It's the Irish Times is throwing in that particular nugget to muddy the waters, knowing full well that people would pick up on it and run with it.

The girl was suicidal enough to be committed - in the eyes of some, and yet you state there was no necessity to convene such a panel. What a warped perception.

The legislation is unworkable in practice and open to subversion by people like the psychiatrist in question. My tongue-in-cheek statement that this country does not have legislation that allows for abortion is born out by events.

In 2014 there were 26 abortions under the act, and at least 3735 in the UK, so 99.3% of abortions availed of by Irish women were not covered by the act.

What a pitiful country this is.

One eyed Jack · 12-06-2017 07:45PM

cnocbui wrote: »

The girl was suicidal enough to be committed - in the eyes of some, and yet you state there was no necessity to convene such a panel. What a warped perception.

Who's warped perception?

Mine, or the professionals who were actually involved in the case who were in a far better position to make the determinations they did than you are?

I'd respectfully suggest your own perception is warped if you think you're in a better position to determine anything than those people who were actually involved in the case.

The legislation is unworkable in practice and open to subversion by people like the psychiatrist in question. My tongue-in-cheek statement that this country does not have legislation that allows for abortion is born out by events.

In 2014 there were 26 abortions under the act, and at least 3735 in the UK, so 99.3% of abortions availed of by Irish women were not covered by the act.

What a pitiful country this is.

Which legislation? The legislation which allowed for the child to be detained, which is the only legislation that applies in this case, or the legislation you're attempting to apply from your own warped point of view to bolster your own lack of an argument?

This country actually does have legislation which allows for abortion under certain circumstances, same as any other countries which allow for abortion under certain circumstances, including the UK.

You might suggest that because a country doesn't conform to your warped point of view, that the country is a pitiful country, but again I would respectfully suggest that you're lacking perspective in that case. Either that, or you're overestimating the importance of your opinion.

Persephone kindness · 12-06-2017 07:45PM

xzanti wrote: »

It really is like something straight out of the 1940's.

No WOMAN should have to carry a child when she doesn't want to, never mind a child herself.

Disgusting.

Stay classy ireland.

Persephone kindness · 12-06-2017 07:46PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Who's warped perception?

Mine, or the professionals who were actually involved in the case who were in a far better position to make the determinations they did than you are?

I'd respectfully suggest your own perception is warped if you think you're in a better position to determine anything than those people who were actually involved in the case.

Which legislation? The legislation which allowed for the child to be detained, which is the only legislation that applies in this case, or the legislation you're attempting to apply from your own warped point of view to bolster your own lack of an argument?

This country actually does have legislation which allows for abortion under certain circumstances, same as any other countries which allow for abortion under certain circumstances, including the UK.

You might suggest that because a country doesn't conform to your warped point of view, that the country is a pitiful country, but again I would respectfully suggest that you're lacking perspective in that case. Either that, or you're overestimating the importance of your opinion.

You shouldn't get to legislate over my body for 9 months.

AnGaelach · 12-06-2017 07:49PM

Persephone kindness wrote: »

You shouldn't get to legislate over my body for 9 months.

We most certainly should and do. Your "rights" aren't antecedent to society's demands.

Cork Lass · 12-06-2017 07:52PM

Jamiekelly wrote: »

If abortion is murder then doesn't that make a miscarriage manslaughter? After all, if you believe the foetus in the womb deserves the same rights as a child outside of it then surely you should be getting the placards out for the women who neglected their child to death while they were in the womb.

Even if you didn't want to push for manslaughter charges you should still believe that at the very least its child neglect. But something tells me that issue would be far to complex and harrowing to even try and debate.

I've mentioned this argument to pro life people before and I still haven't gotten a straight answer, most boil it down to "individual cases and not a one size fits all solution." Which is laughable considering that's exactly what they want when it comes to abortion itself....

This has to be the most inhumane thing ever ever said to anyone who may have suffered a miscarriage. Disgusting.

One eyed Jack · 12-06-2017 07:53PM

Persephone kindness wrote: »

You shouldn't get to legislate over my body for 9 months.

I have no interest in legislating over your body or you as an individual at any time.

However, as a citizen of Ireland, I absolutely do get to have a say in the laws which are used to govern Irish society by means of the Irish Constitution. It's really not just about you as an individual.

crustybla · 12-06-2017 07:55PM

AnGaelach wrote: »

Over the murder of the unborn?

I saw that one coming miles away. Again, Jesus wept.

greencap · 12-06-2017 07:58PM

Persephone kindness wrote: »

You shouldn't get to legislate over my body for 9 months.

When you're bonkers, whether male or female, if a few doctors sign you off you do temporarily lose your bodily rights.

And its just as well.

It saves people. And those people look back later on and thank the doctors for preventing them from their post traumatic or depressed or paranoid escapades.

Persephone kindness · 12-06-2017 08:01PM

AnGaelach wrote: »

We most certainly should and do. Your "rights" aren't antecedent to society's demands.

Please Excuse me but who you do you think you are to tell me my rights? Are you are garda reading me my rights? No.

And rights are not rights if they can be taken away. Then they are privileges.

Bodily autonomy is a necessary right to be a citizen if the state does not recognize it then it does not recognize me as a human being..

Persephone kindness · 12-06-2017 08:02PM

greencap wrote: »

When you're bonkers, whether male or female, if a few doctors sign you off you do temporarily lose your bodily rights.

And its just as well.

It saves people. And those people look back later on and thank the doctors for preventing them from their post traumatic or depressed or paranoid escapades.

No they sue. And later more enlightened people look back in disgust if you really wanna know..just as other countries are looking at this country now.

Persephone kindness · 12-06-2017 08:03PM

AnGaelach wrote: »

Over the murder of the unborn?

yeah sure

gctest50 · 12-06-2017 08:03PM

greencap wrote: »

When you're bonkers, whether male or female, if a few doctors sign you off you do temporarily lose your bodily rights.

And its just as well.

It saves people. And those people look back later on and thank the doctors for preventing them from their post traumatic or depressed or paranoid escapades.

greencap wrote: »

And those people look back later on and thank the doctors .............

Even those that go on killing sprees years later ?

That must suck if you are the doctor that went over n above to save them . Gee thanks doc

LirW · 12-06-2017 08:03PM

mezzogiorno wrote: »

so did she have the aboriton>

if the fetus is till alive we should fight to save it

Will you also care for it when it's here, material and emotional?

12-06-2017 08:05PM

greencap wrote: »

until they reach a point of calm reason yes.

you don't have to keep them there til they change their mind.

I agree that a decision such as termination should not be made in haste or hysteria. That part of your post isn't of any concern.

I'm very concerned that you appear to view psychiatric hospitals as "the naughty step", for mentally ill people to be detained as punishment until they decide to make themselves well and stop acting up.

greencap · 12-06-2017 08:06PM

gctest50 wrote: »

Even those that go on killing sprees years later ?

That must suck if you are the doctor that went over n above to save them . Gee thanks doc

well jesus what more can you do than try.

ffs.

Persephone kindness · 12-06-2017 08:06PM

Youth defense have the fetus liberation front covered.

Anita Blow · 12-06-2017 08:07PM

Persephone kindness wrote: »

No they sue. And later more enlightened people look back in disgust if you really wanna know..just as other countries are looking at this country now.

No they don't. Detention for suicidal risk is a standard practice in every western country.

Persephone kindness · 12-06-2017 08:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm very concerned that you appear to view psychiatric hospitals as "the naughty step", for mentally ill people to be detained as punishment until they decide to make themselves well and stop acting up.

That's is actually what prisons are. And to be honest we treat prisoners much the same as the mentally ill who have committed no crime. Men and women. It's a separate issue but it's a serious issue for another thread.

greencap · 12-06-2017 08:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree that a decision such as termination should not be made in haste or hysteria. That part of your post isn't of any concern.

I'm very concerned that you appear to view psychiatric hospitals as "the naughty step", for mentally ill people to be detained as punishment until they decide to make themselves well and stop acting up.

would you stop.

whats wrong now. wrong terminology. on an internet forum. oh the humanity.

Persephone kindness · 12-06-2017 08:09PM

Anita Blow wrote: »

No they don't. Detention for suicidal risk is a standard practice in every western country.

You are not reading what other news papers are saying. You are in denial. I am sorry i don't think i can have a rational conversation with you.

One eyed Jack · 12-06-2017 08:11PM

Persephone kindness wrote: »

Please Excuse me but who you do you think you are to tell me my rights? Are you are garda reading me my rights? No.

And rights are not rights if they can be taken away. Then they are privileges.

Bodily autonomy is a necessary right to be a citizen if the state does not recognize it then it does not recognize me as a human being..

The State recognises your right to bodily autonomy, but I think you're also aware that human rights are not absolute, and that all rights are balanced against each other depending upon the circumstances, which is why the right to life of the unborn is acknowledged in law, conferred upon the unborn by law, and protected by law.

Because the State, as well as recognising your right to life, is also obliged to recognise the right to life of the unborn, and to this end a Judge can appoint a GAD to advocate for the child in question in this case, and a GAD to advocate for the welfare of the unborn.

You're absolutely right though that we shouldn't allow people to be so quick to undermine these rights when it doesn't suit those people to recognise and acknowledge them.

12-06-2017 08:12PM

greencap wrote: »

would you stop.

whats wrong now. wrong terminology. on an internet forum. oh the humanity.

If you're going to argue you should at least try to make it effective, you destroy your own argument with your "wrong" terminology.

gctest50 · 12-06-2017 08:13PM

greencap wrote: »

well jesus what more can you do than try.

ffs.

What if they don't belong on "the naughty step" ~ are not insane , happy enough and just want to end it ?

~ euthanasia should be legal

remember :

12-06-2017 08:14PM

surely if any female presents as suicidal as a result of her pregnancy, there is an onus on that psychiatrist to involve two more?

What is to stop any anti-abortion psychiatrist from sectioning every woman who presents as suicidal as a result of their pregnancy?
Its extremely worrying that only a few days later a second doctor found she was not suffering from any condition that would need detaining?

greencap · 12-06-2017 08:14PM

Persephone kindness wrote: »

No they sue. And later more enlightened people look back in disgust if you really wanna know..just as other countries are looking at this country now.

w........................t..................................f

when someone is suicidal they get committed for their own good

would you prefer that some guy who's going through a hard time and stands on the edge of a bridge every night be just waved to. nothing to do with us.

coo-eee, alright mate, fcking yourself off the bridge again .... oooh that recession eh.

Anita Blow · 12-06-2017 08:15PM

Persephone kindness wrote: »

You are not reading what other news papers are saying. You are in denial. I am sorry i don't think i can have a rational conversation with you.

I don't think you can have a rational conversation either way. You said other "enlightened" countries look down on Ireland for detaining those at risk of suicide. I argued that it is incorrect because detention orders are standard practice across the world. What is there to misunderstand?

Girl sectioned after psychiatrist ruled out abortion

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