Girl sectioned after psychiatrist ruled out abortion

jaja321

This story has really upset me today. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/girl-sectioned-after-psychiatrist-ruled-out-abortion-1.3116111. I’m 8 months pregnant and despite having had a relatively ‘easy’ pregnancy with no complications, I know that to go through with a pregnancy, you really need to want it.

Where is the sense in trying to make this young girl continue with her pregnancy when she is clearly distraught about it? And then to have her sectioned? What kind of barbaric country is this? I don’t know what happened to her once she was no longer detained, but I would assume she probably went to England to have an abortion (she clearly had the support of her mother).

So what did we achieve here? Just a possibly delayed abortion and a very distraught young girl.

xzanti

It really is like something straight out of the 1940's.

No WOMAN should have to carry a child when she doesn't want to, never mind a child herself.

Disgusting.

eviltwin

Is it normal procedure to section people who are feeling suicidal? I've read so many stories of people presenting at hospital saying they feel suicidal and been sent on their way so why was this different. Its odd she and her mother were under the impression she was being given the abortion too, was it not communicated to them that this would not be happening? Does pregnancy make it more likely that a woman will be sectioned?

Ultimate Seduction

xzanti wrote:

No WOMAN should have to carry a child when she doesn't want to, never mind a child herself.

No WOMAN should be allowed murder a child if she wants to.

steddyeddy

Poor girl. This is completely inhumane. Give her equal rights FFS.

I assume the people who usually go with "Well the judge heard all the facts so they know best" will do the same in this case.

howamidifferent

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

No WOMAN should be allowed murder a child if she wants to.

* Gets popcorn * :eek:

biko

Girl's doctor said she was at risk of suicide due to pregnancy but termination was "not the solution"

Can we please get professionals that stop mixing politics and their opinions in with their treatments.

jaja321

eviltwin wrote: »

Is it normal procedure to section people who are feeling suicidal? I've read so many stories of people presenting at hospital saying they feel suicidal and been sent on their way so why was this different. Its odd she and her mother were under the impression she was being given the abortion too, was it not communicated to them that this would not be happening? Does pregnancy make it more likely that a woman will be sectioned?

I don't know - its so strange. Sure we saw only recently that a 47 year old woman who presented to a psychiatric ward in Galway was told to go home and overdose and that she might be admitted then.

Jim Bob Scratcher

Why didn't she just go across the pond ?

jaja321

Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »

Why didn't she just go across the pond ?

I'd say she did in the end. But possibly presumed that under current legislation she would be 'granted' an abortion here. Both her and her mother were under the impression that they were going to Dublin for that very reason.

Lady is a tramp

While I am fully pro-choice, it doesn't say the age of the person in question ... but the article refers to her as a "young girl" and a "child".

I can kind of see why a pregnant and vulnerable/unstable young girl would be sectioned in those circumstances until some sort of plan was put in place.

And it was only for a few days - it's not like it was for the duration of the pregnancy; the article doesn't say that she didn't go on to get an abortion (if that's what she decided in the end.)

Jamiekelly

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

No WOMAN should be allowed murder a child if she wants to.

If abortion is murder then doesn't that make a miscarriage manslaughter? After all, if you believe the foetus in the womb deserves the same rights as a child outside of it then surely you should be getting the placards out for the women who neglected their child to death while they were in the womb.

Even if you didn't want to push for manslaughter charges you should still believe that at the very least its child neglect. But something tells me that issue would be far to complex and harrowing to even try and debate.

I've mentioned this argument to pro life people before and I still haven't gotten a straight answer, most boil it down to "individual cases and not a one size fits all solution." Which is laughable considering that's exactly what they want when it comes to abortion itself....

Lady is a tramp

Jamiekelly wrote: »

If abortion is murder then doesn't that make a miscarriage manslaughter? After all, if you believe the foetus in the womb deserves the same rights as a child outside of it then surely you should be getting the placards out for the women who neglected their child to death while they were in the womb.

Errr what? Miscarriages occur as a result of neglect now?

Effects

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

No WOMAN should be allowed murder a child if she wants to.

It was a foetus, not a child.

Ultimate Seduction

Jamiekelly wrote:

If abortion is murder then doesn't that make a miscarriage manslaughter? After all, if you believe the foetus in the womb deserves the same rights as a child outside of it then surely you should be getting the placards out for the women who neglected their child to death while they were in the womb.

Jamiekelly wrote:

Even if you didn't want to push for manslaughter charges you should still believe that at the very least its child neglect. But something tells me that issue would be far to complex and harrowing to even try and debate.

Jamiekelly wrote:

I've mentioned this argument to pro life people before and I still haven't gotten a straight answer, most boil it down to "individual cases and not a one size fits all solution." Which is laughable considering that's exactly what they want when it comes to abortion itself....

That's the worst argument I've heard yet on this issue.

Ultimate Seduction

The fact you think miscarriage is due to neglect shows you have no business even debating this.

Wheeliebin30

Jamiekelly wrote: »

If abortion is murder then doesn't that make a miscarriage manslaughter? After all, if you believe the foetus in the womb deserves the same rights as a child outside of it then surely you should be getting the placards out for the women who neglected their child to death while they were in the womb.

Even if you didn't want to push for manslaughter charges you should still believe that at the very least its child neglect. But something tells me that issue would be far to complex and harrowing to even try and debate.

I've mentioned this argument to pro life people before and I still haven't gotten a straight answer, most boil it down to "individual cases and not a one size fits all solution." Which is laughable considering that's exactly what they want when it comes to abortion itself....

Jesus if this is an argument for the pro side I will never be pro life.

What a disgusting insensitive comment.

RobbieTheRobber

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

No WOMAN should be allowed murder a child if she wants to.

If abortion is legislated for and then performed under those conditions it is not murder!


Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Pelvis

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

I can kind of see why a pregnant and vulnerable/unstable young girl would be sectioned in those circumstances until some sort of plan was put in place.

What, in case she changes her mind?

She was depressed/suicidal because of her pregnancy, according to the article and the first psychiatrist. As per the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, an abortion can be carried out, it seems like the girl and her mother wanted this. Why was this ignored and instead the girl detained?

Would you like to be detained in a mental health ward, even "only for a few days"?

mirrorwall14

I've a sibling who presented suicidal. Ended up admitted to a psych ward but they wouldn't section her. Refused to keep her unless she voluntarily admitted. Despite multiple attempts over the years she has never been sectioned.

This seems insane to me considering that. So if my sibling had been pregnant they'd have sectioned her instead of sending her home for the family to try and mind?

Edit: as for the miscarriage stuff? I had a miscarriage two months ago. You have no idea wtf you are talking about to compare it to an abortion? I was and still am devastated to have lost my baby and it wasn't my bloody fault

greencap

OK. Everyone with a torch or pitchfork put it down and stfu.

Kid was ruled mentally unwell. This is not the time to do any surgery, be it a nose job, a ''gender reassignment'' or an abortion.

You put a person with psych issues in a psych care ward ... Then when they're feeling a little calmer you ask them what they want.

You may find their new, post-naughty step opinion can differ slightly to their earlier, sometimes rather more dramatic, wishes.

GritBiscuit

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

If abortion is legislated for and then performed under those conditions it is not murder!


Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

In this jurisdiction, fetuses are not granted the status of "personhood" anyway - so even now it doesn't constitute "murdering a child" or whatever other hyperbole is used to make abortions (and the vast majority are taking about early stage abortion) sound akin to sticking an axe in the skull of a toddler...

Pelvis

greencap wrote: »

Kid was ruled mentally unwell. This is not the time to do any surgery, be it a nose job, a ''gender reassignment'' or an abortion.

You put a person with psych issues in a psych care ward ... Then when they're feeling a little calmer you ask them what they want.

The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act disagrees with you. If there's a risk to life due to suicide you don't stick them in a padded room and hope they perk up.

Lady is a tramp

Pelvis wrote: »

What, in case she changes her mind?

She was depressed/suicidal because of her pregnancy, according to the article and the first psychiatrist. As per the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, an abortion can be carried out, it seems like the girl and her mother wanted this. Why was this ignored and instead the girl detained?

Would you like to be detained in a mental health ward, even "only for a few days"?

I have been, more than once. While I didn't agree with it in the time, in hindsight I can see the reasoning behind it. The medical staff involved certainly didn't do it for their own good!

She was depressed/suicidal because of her pregnancy. If they let her go, there and then, she'd still have been depressed and suicidal and pregnant. With no immediate way of ending the pregnancy. But with every means and opportunity of ending her own life.

Can't you just see the headlines - "Depressed pregnant teenager commits suicide after being discharged from psychiatric unit" ... everyone would be up in arms at the fact that she wasn't kept there, to at least attempt to give her some help within the confines of Irish law.

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the psychiatrist in question probably made the most responsible decision she could given the circumstances.

Delirium

greencap wrote: »

OK. Everyone with a torch or pitchfork put it down and stfu.

Kid was ruled mentally unwell. This is not the time to do any surgery, be it a nose job, a ''gender reassignment'' or an abortion.

You put a person with psych issues in a psych care ward ... Then when they're feeling a little calmer you ask them what they want.

You may find their new, post-naughty step opinion can differ slightly to their earlier, sometimes rather more dramatic, wishes.

So why put a provision for pregnant women who are suicidal that want an abortion?

Is there not something wrong with how abortion is handled in Ireland where a woman has to be suicidal to be considered for access to abortion only to be detained until she 'calms down'?

Women shouldn't have to become suicidal before abortion is a possibility.

retro:electro

Jamiekelly wrote: »

If abortion is murder then doesn't that make a miscarriage manslaughter? After all, if you believe the foetus in the womb deserves the same rights as a child outside of it then surely you should be getting the placards out for the women who neglected their child to death while they were in the womb.

Even if you didn't want to push for manslaughter charges you should still believe that at the very least its child neglect. But something tells me that issue would be far to complex and harrowing to even try and debate.

I've mentioned this argument to pro life people before and I still haven't gotten a straight answer, most boil it down to "individual cases and not a one size fits all solution." Which is laughable considering that's exactly what they want when it comes to abortion itself....

Miscarriages have nothing to do with neglecting the health of your baby. What an appallingly insulting and hurtful thing to say.

eviltwin

I can understand the refusal to allow the abortion. The issue here isn't really about abortion imo, its about her being sectioned and why that happened and if this is now something that any women looking for abortion on suicide grounds might have happen to them.

It says she was angry because she was under the impression she had arrived in dublin to have the abortion. Who told her and her mother that was the case? Why were they travelling to dublin if there was no chance of the abortion happening? Obviously she was angry and upset at this but is that reason enough to section someone?

She was not allowed the abortion because she was not ruled to be suicidal.....why then was she sectioned?

Something really crooked about this entire thing.

cnocbui

What a typically 'Irish' story.

Just adds to the fuel powering my intention to leave this country ASAP and to take my daughter to a more sane country.

Jamiekelly

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

The fact you think miscarriage is due to neglect shows you have no business even debating this.

Well done, you have just proven my point.

The entire argument for pro life is that the right of the foetus to live is the same right to life that everyone has under law. Is it not?

Whether you mean to take someone's life is the defining principle between murder and manslaughter. If abortion is murder because the pregnant woman wants the child to die then miscarriage is manslaughter by the same definition.

You never even tried to debate against the argument, which proves why your "right to life" view falls down under the most basic of scrutiny.

I have no business even debating this? From your reply it looks like you don't want to debate it to begin with....

cnocbui

eviltwin wrote: »

I can understand the refusal to allow the abortion. The issue here isn't really about abortion imo, its about her being sectioned and why that happened and if this is now something that any women looking for abortion on suicide grounds might have happen to them.

It says she was angry because she was under the impression she had arrived in dublin to have the abortion. Who told her and her mother that was the case? Why were they travelling to dublin if there was no chance of the abortion happening? Obviously she was angry and upset at this but is that reason enough to section someone?

She was not allowed the abortion because she was not ruled to be suicidal.....why then was she sectioned?

Something really crooked about this entire thing.

This is an abortion issue, it was a health practitioners own twisted moral compass that was behind them sectioning someone in order to prevent an abortion.

Yourself isit

cnocbui wrote: »

What a typically 'Irish' story.

Just adds to the fuel powering my intention to leave this country ASAP and to take my daughter to a more sane country.

Yeh. Does she have a choice?

Nabber

How old is the girl?

If sexual inter course was consensual, then why should I be outraged that she is not allowed an abortion?

Being sectioned unjustly, now that I don't agree with.

eviltwin

cnocbui wrote: »

This is an abortion issue, it was a health practitioners own twisted moral compass that was behind them sectioning someone in order to prevent an abortion.

I'm going to give this psychiatrist the benefit of the doubt for the moment and assume they made their decision based on their expertise rather than their own morality.

I'm still shocked at how this has all played out. The psychiatrist made a decision that no abortion could take place. Why then did the girl and her mother think otherwise, what led them to think that they were actually going to have the abortion that day? Am I the only one who can't make sense of that?

And why if she wasn't suicidal enough for an abortion was she ruled suicidal enough to be sectioned? I think this all needs to be cleared up so that no other woman will be deterred from seeking help if she needs it.

mahamageehad

Jamiekelly wrote: »

Well done, you have just proven my point.

The entire argument for pro life is that the right of the foetus to live is the same right to life that everyone has under law. Is it not?

Whether you mean to take someone's life is the defining principle between murder and manslaughter. If abortion is murder because the pregnant woman wants the child to die then miscarriage is manslaughter by the same definition.

You never even tried to debate against the argument, which proves why your "right to life" view falls down under the most basic of scrutiny.

I have no business even debating this? From your reply it looks like you don't want to debate it to begin with....

Christ. I mean, I get where you're trying to go with this, but if abortion is murder then miscarriage is a tragic case of passing away in the night. There's intent in an abortion, and "fault" if you want to continue with that (misguided) line of thinking, but no woman can choose whether or not she miscarries. Jesus.

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

I can understand the refusal to allow the abortion. The issue here isn't really about abortion imo, its about her being sectioned and why that happened and if this is now something that any women looking for abortion on suicide grounds might have happen to them.

It says she was angry because she was under the impression she had arrived in dublin to have the abortion. Who told her and her mother that was the case? Why were they travelling to dublin if there was no chance of the abortion happening? Obviously she was angry and upset at this but is that reason enough to section someone?

She was not allowed the abortion because she was not ruled to be suicidal.....why then was she sectioned?

Something really crooked about this entire thing.

I completely agree with you that the issue here isn't about abortion, but I don't think there's anything crooked about it, particularly when it's obviously a minor we're talking about here and the fact that a GAL was appointed to advocate on her behalf.

It's not unusual for the media to want to portray the circumstances of the case in a particular light though according to their own agenda, to give the appearance of something being crooked about the way the case was handled.

Jamiekelly

anna080 wrote: »

Miscarriages have nothing to do with neglecting the health of your baby. What an appallingly insulting and hurtful thing to say.

Look at the post again without a veil of emotion clouding your judgement of it. I'm not advocating the view that women who have miscarriages should be legally prosecuted. I'm wondering why those who advocate "abortion is murder" don't advocate miscarriage being manslaughter under their own definition of fetuses having the same right to life as others.

cnocbui

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm going to give this psychiatrist the benefit of the doubt for the moment and assume they made their decision based on their expertise rather than their own morality.

I'm still shocked at how this has all played out. The psychiatrist made a decision that no abortion could take place. Why then did the girl and her mother think otherwise, what led them to think that they were actually going to have the abortion that day? Am I the only one who can't make sense of that?

And why if she wasn't suicidal enough for an abortion was she ruled suicidal enough to be sectioned? I think this all needs to be cleared up so that no other woman will be deterred from seeking help if she needs it.

This is the country where medical practitioners regularly broke women's pelvises - Symphysiotomy, an incredibly painful proceedure - in order to punish their perceived immorality, and you are going to give the benefit of the doubt. Good for you, but I think you are naive.

greencap

Pelvis wrote: »

The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act disagrees with you. If there's a risk to life due to suicide you don't stick them in a padded room and hope they perk up.

Really? ..... what exactly do you do with suicidal people other than put them in a psych ward.

Do tell.

Nabber

Nabber wrote: »

How old is the girl?

If sexual inter course was consensual, then why should I be outraged that she is not allowed an abortion?
.

Because the LAW in this country allows termination in the case of the mothers life being at risk, including suicide.
So, it's the law.
sectioning a young girl so she can't get a termination should be punishable imo

cnocbui

Yourself isit wrote: »

Yeh. Does she have a choice?

Of course she does. She will have finished her Leaving Cert and will be 18. Even were she not, I would always let her decide.

GritBiscuit

Jamiekelly wrote: »

Whether you mean to take someone's life is the defining principle between murder and manslaughter. If abortion is murder because the pregnant woman wants the child to die then miscarriage is manslaughter by the same definition.

Wrong on so many levels....for starters, both murder and manslaughter are the unlawful taking of life - a positive action - and the difference between murder and manslaughter is premeditation. There is nothing premeditated about miscarriage, no positive action by the pregnant woman ended her pregnancy and to infer that the deliberate termination of an unwanted pregnancy is a relation to miscarriage is horrible. Please stop.

eviltwin

cnocbui wrote: »

This is the country where medical practitioners regularly broke women's pelvises - Symphysiotomy, an incredibly painful proceedure - in order to punish their perceived immorality, and you are going to give the benefit of the doubt. Good for you, but I think you are naive.

I'm not going to assume every medical professional in this country is cut from the same cloth as those you describe. Psychiatry is not cut and dried, mental health issues can be subjective and you will find different opinions on a patients mental state can differ from one expert to another. Lets not jump on this person and assume they were acting from some personal opinion that abortion is wrong and no one should have one. If there is anything to suggest this person was acting that way I'm happy to jump in there with my pitchfork.

Jamiekelly

Jamiekelly wrote: »

I'm wondering why those who advocate "abortion is murder" don't advocate miscarriage being manslaughter under their own definition of fetuses having the same right to life as others.

Because miscarriage is involuntary. No one has to neglect or do anything wrong for a miscarriage to happen.
It's like someone just dying. No ones to blame....

cnocbui

greencap wrote: »

Really? ..... what exactly do you do with suicidal people other than put them in a psych ward.

Do tell.

You let them have an abortion so they are no-longer suicidal.

One eyed Jack

Jamiekelly wrote: »

Look at the post again without a veil of emotion clouding your judgement of it. I'm not advocating the view that women who have miscarriages should be legally prosecuted. I'm wondering why those who advocate "abortion is murder" don't advocate miscarriage being manslaughter under their own definition of fetuses having the same right to life as others.

Because they're two completely different circumstances and cannot in any way at all be defined the same way. One can advocate that abortion is murder on it's own, without having to advocate that miscarriage is manslaughter.

Pelvis

greencap wrote: »

Really? ..... what exactly do you do with suicidal people other than put them in a psych ward.

Do tell.

No real response so you resort to pedantry? Cool.

If someone is suicidal because of pregnancy then chances are no matter how long you leave them in a mental health unit they're likely not going to "calm down". The act previously referred to makes provisions for this, so why not invoke it when that's clearly what the girl and her family want?

eviltwin

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Because they're two completely different circumstances and cannot in any way at all be defined the same way. One can advocate that abortion is murder on it's own, without having to advocate that miscarriage is manslaughter.

There have been cases of women who have had miscarriages being arrested and charged despite there being no real evidence that they did anything to induce said miscarriage. Maybe that's what he is referring to.

mahamageehad

eviltwin wrote: »

There have been cases of women who have had miscarriages being arrested and charged despite there being no real evidence that they did anything to induce said miscarriage. Maybe that's what he is referring to.

In Ireland? Links?

greencap

Pelvis wrote: »

No real response so you resort to pedantry? Cool.

If someone is suicidal because of pregnancy then chances are no matter how long you leave them in a mental health unit they're likely not going to "calm down". The act previously referred to makes provisions for this, so why not invoke it when that's clearly what the girl and her family want?

Sorry ... what?

Pedantry?

I asked you about one of the main issues at hand.

Where exactly do we put suicidal people.

You know 'pedantry' isn't just some word you can throw out to invalidate anything that you disagree with.

Visible curve in the horizon - ehhh.....pedantry, earths flat innit.

This man was seen in the next town at the time of crime - yeah, well... pedantry, guity isnt he.

You've invalidated the confidentiality clause - ok yeah maybe I did but hey, pedantry.

y0ssar1an22

the article doesn't say, but anyone know how far along she was? surly that plays a role in the protection of life during permanency act?

big difference between 1 month and 7 months pregnant.